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Old October 5th, 2016, 02:13 PM   #1
sickopsycho
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Got a few tech questions for you masters...

I'm trying to get my 2007 ninja road ready since I just bought it and don't know the maintenance history. I've done the valves, tightened chain, changed plugs/oil,filter, etc. Basically all of the maintenance that is suggested by my milage (~17k). Got the bike put back together and now it runs like crap. It idles fine but bogs down big time when I give it gas. Seems like a dead miss on one cylinder and almost even two sometimes. The closest thing I can compare it to is when my catalytic converter was clogged in my jeep. I can spin the engine up to high rpms standing still, but when under load and I give it gas (pretty much anything over 4k rpms) it bogs down so heavily it wont accelerate. Any ideas there? I installed a fuel filter between the petcock and the carb, it stays full of gas. I thought at first maybe its not flowing enough gas, but I can't imagine I would have drained the carb bowls that quickly.
My next question is about a couple of plugs under my tachometer- there is a white with black stripe wire and a black with green stripe wire in the harness, looks factory, but the plugs aren't plugged into anything. Any idea what these go to?
My final question is a recommendation. Are the LED headlamps any better than the standard lights? I would like to get one if it is brighter, plus using less juice and creating less heat is also a plus. Which one would you suggest if so?
Thanks for any help in advance, I'd really like to get the bike running right. I ordered a carb rebuild kit for the carbs- I'll jump into that if need be, but it almost feels like there is a short in the ignition? IDK. Thanks-
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Old October 5th, 2016, 02:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
I'm trying to get my 2007 ninja road ready since I just bought it and don't know the maintenance history. I've done the valves, tightened chain, changed plugs/oil,filter, etc. Basically all of the maintenance that is suggested by my milage (~17k). Got the bike put back together and now it runs like crap. It idles fine but bogs down big time when I give it gas. Seems like a dead miss on one cylinder and almost even two sometimes. The closest thing I can compare it to is when my catalytic converter was clogged in my jeep. I can spin the engine up to high rpms standing still, but when under load and I give it gas (pretty much anything over 4k rpms) it bogs down so heavily it wont accelerate. Any ideas there? I installed a fuel filter between the petcock and the carb, it stays full of gas. I thought at first maybe its not flowing enough gas, but I can't imagine I would have drained the carb bowls that quickly.
My next question is about a couple of plugs under my tachometer- there is a white with black stripe wire and a black with green stripe wire in the harness, looks factory, but the plugs aren't plugged into anything. Any idea what these go to?
My final question is a recommendation. Are the LED headlamps any better than the standard lights? I would like to get one if it is brighter, plus using less juice and creating less heat is also a plus. Which one would you suggest if so?
Thanks for any help in advance, I'd really like to get the bike running right. I ordered a carb rebuild kit for the carbs- I'll jump into that if need be, but it almost feels like there is a short in the ignition? IDK. Thanks-
The blank plug is an accessory power lead. Empty from the factory. White is positive, black is negative. There's one under the tail also.

is the vacuum line for the petcock tight and the hose in good shape? What kind of fuel filter and is it installed in the correct direction? Any garbage in it?
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Old October 5th, 2016, 02:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
The blank plug is an accessory power lead. Empty from the factory. White is positive, black is negative. There's one under the tail also.

is the vacuum line for the petcock tight and the hose in good shape? What kind of fuel filter and is it installed in the correct direction? Any garbage in it?
Good to know on the power lead. Actually, that should come in handy as I replaced the front turn signals. The ones on there were aftermarket, 2-wire. They only blinked. The ones I put on are 3 wire, they have running lights and blinkers. I can use that lead to power the running lights, then the setup I have for the blinkers.
The fuel filter was a cheap-o amazon find. Outlaw Racing part#OR2210 . It's rather small, but there is no trash in it. I suppose I can remove it and run a line directly like the previous setup and see if that clears up the issue easier than removing and cleaning the carbs, but that is in the plans anyway. Want to do the airbox mod and take a look at the jetting. The bike has a K&N filter (the one that goes in the box with hoses that attach to the 2 air inlets, not pod filter) and a slip-on 2 brothers straight pipe exhaust. I rode it when I bought it and it was fine, so it's a recent development. Still would like to see what's going on in those carbs, though.
Vacuum line to the petcock was in good shape when I last had the tank off, I'll go take a look at it now.

Last futzed with by sickopsycho; October 5th, 2016 at 02:42 PM. Reason: forget to mention something...
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Old October 5th, 2016, 02:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
I'm trying to get my 2007 ninja road ready since I just bought it and don't know the maintenance history. I've done the valves, tightened chain, changed plugs/oil,filter, etc. Basically all of the maintenance that is suggested by my milage (~17k). Got the bike put back together and now it runs like crap. It idles fine but bogs down big time when I give it gas. Seems like a dead miss on one cylinder and almost even two sometimes. The closest thing I can compare it to is when my catalytic converter was clogged in my jeep. I can spin the engine up to high rpms standing still, but when under load and I give it gas (pretty much anything over 4k rpms) it bogs down so heavily it wont accelerate. Any ideas there? I installed a fuel filter between the petcock and the carb, it stays full of gas. I thought at first maybe its not flowing enough gas, but I can't imagine I would have drained the carb bowls that quickly.
-
Just so I understand, was it running fine before you did the maintenance? If so, I would question the valve adjustment...

Did you have to actually adjust the valves?
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Old October 5th, 2016, 02:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Just so I understand, was it running fine before you did the maintenance? So, if so, I would question the valve adjustment...

Did you have to actually adjust the valves?
That's correct, but I'm pretty sure I did the valves right. I've done them plenty of times on another motor. I shot for the "loose" end of the spec, as they tighten over time and I'd rather a little noise then a blown motor. I found 1 intake and 1 exhaust to be out of spec on each cylinder, and those were the only ones I adjusted.
I was looking at my fuel filter install and saw that the hose has a slight kink in it where it turns up to the petcock, I wonder if the engine is getting gas-starved? I will replace that whole setup with a straight run of fuel line tomorrow to see if it solves the problem. The kink is ever so slight, I don't see how it wouldn't flow enough gas to keep the bowls full, but it seems like it's either not getting fuel or it's not getting spark. Not sure which, but since it seems to happen under full or heavy throttle and specifically at higher rpm, and seems to start with 1 cylinder missing then possibly both- i'm leaning towards an extremely lean condition due to possible gas starvation. Not a pretty sight, I will do the hose swap tomorrow and report back.

Any thoughts on the LED headlamp replacement?
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
That's correct, but I'm pretty sure I did the valves right. I've done them plenty of times on another motor. I shot for the "loose" end of the spec, as they tighten over time and I'd rather a little noise then a blown motor. I found 1 intake and 1 exhaust to be out of spec on each cylinder, and those were the only ones I adjusted.
I was looking at my fuel filter install and saw that the hose has a slight kink in it where it turns up to the petcock, I wonder if the engine is getting gas-starved? I will replace that whole setup with a straight run of fuel line tomorrow to see if it solves the problem. The kink is ever so slight, I don't see how it wouldn't flow enough gas to keep the bowls full, but it seems like it's either not getting fuel or it's not getting spark. Not sure which, but since it seems to happen under full or heavy throttle and specifically at higher rpm, and seems to start with 1 cylinder missing then possibly both- i'm leaning towards an extremely lean condition due to possible gas starvation. Not a pretty sight, I will do the hose swap tomorrow and report back.

Any thoughts on the LED headlamp replacement?
LED or HID bulb replacements suck and do nothing but throw glare all over the place and annoy/blind oncoming drivers.

If you're going to do it, do it right and install a projector set up.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:36 PM   #7
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You didn't mention the air filter - did you replace or clean it?

Make sure there's nothing under the seat blocking the intake to the airbox.

You could pull the plugs and take a look for clues. You can also check the exhaust pipes with an IR thermometer to see if both cylinders are firing and running the same.

How well does it crank over? A dead battery can cause it to run poorly. Check to see that you have at least 12.7V before turning anything on.

How old is the gas? Bad gas or gas with water (condensation) can cause what you described. If there's any question, I'd completely drain the tank and floatbowls.

Don't bother revving when not under load (riding). The requirements (ignition, air, carb jetting, fuel quality) to rev freely are way less than what is required under load and it doesn't really tell you anything when troubleshooting.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
You didn't mention the air filter - did you replace or clean it?

Make sure there's nothing under the seat blocking the intake to the airbox.

You could pull the plugs and take a look for clues. You can also check the exhaust pipes with an IR thermometer to see if both cylinders are firing and running the same.

How well does it crank over? A dead battery can cause it to run poorly. Check to see that you have at least 12.7V before turning anything on.

How old is the gas? Bad gas or gas with water (condensation) can cause what you described. If there's any question, I'd completely drain the tank and floatbowls.

Don't bother revving when not under load (riding). The requirements (ignition, air, carb jetting, fuel quality) to rev freely are way less than what is required under load and really doesn't tell you anything when troubleshooting.
The air filter is a K&N KA-2586 filter. It looked good when I removed it so I didn't mess with it. Had a coat of oil and no visible dirt. There is nothing blocking the air intake.

The battery is shot. I have to keep it on a charger otherwise I only get a few cranks out of it, but it's around 12.7 when I go to run the bike. Charging voltage is a solid 13.5 or so. I have a new battery on the way.

The bike cranks like a champ. In the 80-90 degree weather I don't have to use choke to start it or if I do, only slight choke. It fires right up in less than 1 sec of cranking.

Gas is fresh, bought it last week. There was 6oz of seafoam added to a full tank of gas. This was a recommendation from this forum, I think, would this cause an issue in performace similar to what I'm explaining? I wouldn't think so, but IDK.

Regarding checking the temps of the cylinders or exhaust- it idles fine. It revs fine with no load as well, so IDK how to check those temps while I'm hauling tail down the road. I'm a new rider so I should probably focus on my riding vs trying to aim an IR thermometer at the exhaust while I'm on the road

Thanks for everybodys feedback- you guys ROCK! I have some ideas to try out tomorrow, probably remove that fuel filter and run a straight hose from petcock to carbs, then if that doesn't work I'll pull the carbs.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:48 PM   #9
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Don't run the bike with a crap battery. It will over work the regulator and stator and possibly burn one or the other up. It may also be the source of your issues. Wait until your new battery gets here!
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
Don't run the bike with a crap battery. It will over work the regulator and stator and possibly burn one or the other up. It may also be the source of your issues. Wait until your new battery gets here!
Good to know, thanks for the tip. Lucky for me, the new battery should be here in the next couple days =)
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
Don't run the bike with a crap battery. It will over work the regulator and stator and possibly burn one or the other up. It may also be the source of your issues. Wait until your new battery gets here!
^This!

Sounds like you have done the right things, so I would hold off doing too much until you have a new battery installed. Plan to charge it before you put it in also.

The Seafoam shouldn't cause any problems.

As far as the pipe temps go, I'd just check them in the garage with the engine running at idle and then maybe about 4000 to see if there's a significant difference. No way to read it while you are riding.

Sometimes adding an inline fuel filter creates a low spot that stops fuel flow to the carbs from the petcock, so that's also a possibility.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 08:23 AM   #12
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It's probably the inline fuel filter, I tried to add one and had the same problem. Research on google has told me that they are not meant to have one inline, because from the factory the filter is a screen inside the petcock. I wondered why the hell the bike didn't have one when I bought it, and found out why when I tried to install one.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 08:26 AM   #13
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It's probably the inline fuel filter, I tried to add one and had the same problem. Research on google has told me that they are not meant to have one inline, because from the factory the filter is a screen inside the petcock. I wondered why the hell the bike didn't have one when I bought it, and found out why when I tried to install one.
Right on- that's kind of what i'm leaning towards. Since it's a gravity feed from the tank, I'm guessing that when I'm giving it a lot of gas it's simply not filling the carb bowls back up fast enough for whatever reason. That's just how it's acting, like it's gas staved. I'm at work now, but plan on removing it and trying a run when I get home. Thanks for the input! =)
P.S. Where are you located in NC? I'm in Raleigh, but travel down to Wilmington quite a bit. Once I get my endorsement, I'm gonna need some riding buddies. =)
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Old October 6th, 2016, 04:55 PM   #14
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Right on- that's kind of what i'm leaning towards. Since it's a gravity feed from the tank, I'm guessing that when I'm giving it a lot of gas it's simply not filling the carb bowls back up fast enough for whatever reason. That's just how it's acting, like it's gas staved. I'm at work now, but plan on removing it and trying a run when I get home. Thanks for the input! =)
P.S. Where are you located in NC? I'm in Raleigh, but travel down to Wilmington quite a bit. Once I get my endorsement, I'm gonna need some riding buddies. =)
I'm in the suburbs of Charlotte. Traffic is crazy here on the highways, but we got a lot of nice twisty back roads here to ride. I usually don't stray too far from the area, but I got in with a local sport bike riders group on Fb. We get together and ride every Saturday. You are welcome to come ride anytime. All fellow bikers are brothers to us.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 06:33 PM   #15
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Status update

So I got home this evening late. It was already dark, but my new battery came in, so I got it installed. I also was taking a look at the old fuel line that I replaced (the one that come on the bike when I bought it, I replaced with a new hose and a filter), and there is a piece of something inside it. Not sure what it is, but it LOOKS like someone folded up some type of filter paper and crammed it in there? IDK. Anyway, I put a new fuel hose on with no inline filter and I hope that solves the problem. I'm not very confident, however, because I noticed something else in the process.
First, I didn't take it for a test ride, as I'm gonna wait until tomorrow during the daytime. I have a total of maybe 40 miles experience on a street bike and I don't have plates or a MC endorsement. I don't want to ride at night with so little experience (not to mention the legality). Anyway, back to the new development...
I had noticed a gas smell in my garage whenever I walk in there. I figured it was since I had been working on the bike so much lately, but as I was working on the fuel line, I noticed the gad filler cap was uneven on the tank. It's an aftermarket filler and it's not sitting flush. So I grab a hex key and start tightening it a bit, but it won't flush up. See the pics below...



I notice that there is a strong gas smell right around the filler part of the tank. I can only assume its not air (or water, more importantly) tight. I washed the bike a few days ago and that's when I first noticed the problem, after that. Maybe I got a little water in the tank, I'm pretty sure that would cause a running condition like I have, right?
If that is the cause, what would you guys suggest? I know drain and refill the tank and carbs, but how do I get this filler thing flush? Should I just replace it or take it off and try to reinstall it properly? Any thoughts on this?
Thanks, dudes. You guys rock. @Bk834- I would love to come check you guys out, let me get legal first and get a few miles under my belt before I think about a 4 hour drive =)

Sorry the pictures are HUGE, they were actually about twice as big but I photoshopped them once to shrink them but I guess I didn't shrink enough.

Last futzed with by sickopsycho; October 6th, 2016 at 06:40 PM. Reason: I don't know how to post pictures, I guess.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 07:56 PM   #16
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Update: I went ahead and drained the carb bowl that is easy to get to. The 2nd one (the one closest to the fuel input) was a little out of reach for my hex tool without a lot of trouble. I saw absolutely ZERO water in the fuel I drained. There was a very small amount of trash, but no water. I'm gonna run it tomorrow and see how it does. Will report back.
Heres the gas I drained out of the 1 carb, I cleaned the can and dried it prior to draining. The stuff on the left side that looks a little like water is actually a reflection from my flash and the side of the can that had fuel on it still.

Last futzed with by sickopsycho; October 6th, 2016 at 08:00 PM. Reason: added an image
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Old October 7th, 2016, 06:05 AM   #17
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Well, I took the bike out for a spin this morning and the problem is still there. Absoulutely no improvement with a new battery and removing the fuel filter from the equation. I'm pretty much thinking at this point that the carbs are either clogged or I have water in them. That's going to be a project for this weekend. I'll remove the carbs, clean and rebuild using the kit from Outlaw racing that I got. Dump the gas from the tank and start fresh. I hate that I have to do this, but oh well. I like to work on my bike, I just would like to ride it more. =)
BTW... interesting find on the internet today. Has anyone every went to google and typed "ninjette" and accidentally hit images instead of web pages? All you guys out there might wanna check it out lol. ;-)
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Old October 7th, 2016, 07:14 AM   #18
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MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
It's very possible that's not the correct gas cap, and it's not sealing. That would let vapor escape and water in. We bought a similar one off of ebay, and I'm pretty sure it fit better than that.

There should be a small filter inside the fuel line right where it connects to the carb. It's not great, but it's something.

I would check the battery voltage. Just because it's a new battery doesn't mean it's fully charged. Often they are not.

Before you pull the carbs, I would drain the tank, check the condition inside, and refill with fresh gas.
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Old October 7th, 2016, 07:21 AM   #19
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It's very possible that's not the correct gas cap, and it's not sealing. That would let vapor escape and water in. We bought a similar one off of ebay, and I'm pretty sure it fit better than that.

There should be a small filter inside the fuel line right where it connects to the carb. It's not great, but it's something.

I would check the battery voltage. Just because it's a new battery doesn't mean it's fully charged. Often they are not.

Before you pull the carbs, I would drain the tank, check the condition inside, and refill with fresh gas.
The battery came with an even 13.0v. Believe me, that was the first thing I checked (with a dmm). I even put my battery tender on it and it went straight to float charge. Also noted that the date of manufacture was 3 months before I received it.
The filter is that "elbow" piece that the fuel line connects to at the carb, correct? If I'm not mistaken there is also a screen in the petcock. I guess that'll have to do for now, but I might put the inline back on once i solve the real problem.
Yeah this is absolutely an aftermarket gas cap. It has no lock, it's just a twist off. Did you look at the trash in the can that came out of draining one of the carbs? I did a seafoam treatment where I ran it through vacuum to the carbs, I wonder if that loosened up something that got stuck in a jet? Regardless, that looked like enough trash from the bowl to warrant removal and cleaning of the carbs. I'm a pretty mechanically inclined guy, I feel confident that I can handle it in a few hours. I've been wanting to do the airbox mod as well so I don't have to worry about that in the future... plus I wanted to at least put eyes on the jets in the carb right now. I'm not sure if it was ever rejetted after the air filter/exhaust upgrade so that wouldnt hurt.
I think I will remove that gas lid and try to modify it enough to where it will seat properly. I read on here somewhere about a sealant that will not disolve in gasoline... I can't remember what it was though. I'll keep you all up to speed. Thanks for the continued support guys.

Last futzed with by sickopsycho; October 7th, 2016 at 07:25 AM. Reason: derp.
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Old October 7th, 2016, 07:27 AM   #20
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after some consideration...

I would be a real DB if I asked for advice on here and then just did what I wanted anyway (and not what was suggested). I will try that first and see if it solves the problem. When I get home I'll remove the tank, drain it and the carbs then refill with some fresh gas and see if that solves the problem. Hope that clears it up. =)
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Old October 7th, 2016, 07:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
I would be a real DB if I asked for advice on here and then just did what I wanted anyway (and not what was suggested). I will try that first and see if it solves the problem. When I get home I'll remove the tank, drain it and the carbs then refill with some fresh gas and see if that solves the problem. Hope that clears it up. =)
That happens a lot...but thanks for listening to everyone's advice and following through. Often times members will give extensive advice that goes unheeded, then the OP just disappears...

Cleaning the fuel system and swapping out the fuel is a good idea considering what you've found so far.

A good carb cleaning may be required, but eliminating the simple stuff first is always a good idea.

Just be sure to read through this section well before you dig in - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...n_the_carbs%3F
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Old October 7th, 2016, 03:55 PM   #22
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Well, I got home and drained both carbs and the gas tank. I saw no water in either. I refilled with fresh gas and took her for a ride, no improvement. =( So, I went ahead and started tearing her down to get the carbs out and guess what? Got the carbs out without removing the airbox. Nice! Don't think I'll be able to get them back in without removing the airbox as I had to do some finagling and feel like I'd fill them up with dirt trying to get them in the way I got them out. So tonight is carb rebuild night. I'll be referring to the wiki on here on how to properly do it and will report back what I find. I'll keep the camera close by to document anything I find in the process. Thanks guys!
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Old October 8th, 2016, 10:16 AM   #23
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Ok I have the carbs out and open and look at the first thing I find...

The needle falls out and it has a small wire wrapped around it all ghetto style and 2 shims also fall out.
The needle looks to have 6 lans where the clip is supposed to be clipped. The wire was wrapped around the middle, with 2 shims sitting on top.
The OTHER carb has the correct c-clip (in the 3rd land, the middle) but 2 shims UNDER it. So it looks like the level of the needle was the opposite for each.
This is what the 2nd carb needle came out looking like...

So again, they both had the clip (even though one was ghetto rigged with wire acting as a clip) halfway, the 4th land from the top, 3rd fron the needles point. The ghetto one had shims ON TOP, the other had shims ON THE BOTTOM of the clip.

I have read about "shimming" the needle as a poor mans jet job or whatever, but where are the shims supposed to go? Look to me like they weren't needed at all, as I could have just moved the clip up or down instead of shimming it. Can someone please explain the following.
What is THE BONE STOCK setup of these needles? I.E. one clip, halfway up with zero washers, shims whatever.
What is the proper way to adjust this needle to allow for more gas (a richer mixture) to accommodate for my straight pipe exhaust and K&N air filter?
I understand that every bike and carb is different, but I need a good starting point or I'm not gonna be able to do anything with this.
I'm pretty sure this is why my bike was running like crap.
Thanks guys- We have a hurricane blowing through so I'm stuck in the house and would like to get as much of this done as possible. I know I'll have to order clips to replace the wire... but any feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. =)
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Old October 8th, 2016, 11:32 AM   #24
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found some info

So it would appear as though the stock position of the clip is halfway up the needle. Am I right? The washers can be used for half steps along the needle, so 2 washers would be the approx. equivalent of moving the clip 1 landing. Moving the clip up makes the mixture richer in midrange. That's what I did, moved it down 1 land, removing the washers. I ordered a bag of replacement clips, that little wire will be gone in a couple days. Luckily I can get the carbs back on and replace that clip without removing them again. Anywho- my carb rebuild kit came with idle mixture screws, the associated spring, washer and gasket for it- also new float cutoffs and a bowl gasket. All of which I replaced. The only thing left is this little round piece that I could not identify. No idea where it goes... any input?

It's a solid little piece with no holes or anything. Thought it was a magnet for a sec. Wth is it?
Ok, well I'm off to get this airbox out so I can get these carbs back in. Thanks for any feedback, guys!
-Andrew

***edit*** BWAHAHA I just figured out what those little circle pieces are. They are the replacement plugs for the idle mixture screws. The ones the EPA says put in there so you don't monkey with the idle mixture. lol- so they aren't important. I noticed the old mixture screws were approximately 2 full turns out from all the way in. I screwed the old ones all the way in and measured the # of turns. I made sure to run the new ones all the way in, then back out 2 turns. I feel like this was what I did on another carb it it was perfect. Is this correct procedure?

Last futzed with by sickopsycho; October 8th, 2016 at 11:41 AM. Reason: lol just figured it out.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 11:38 AM   #25
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sorry for all the reports, one more thing

So regarding balancing these things... I noticed that one butterfly valve is the "master" and the other is actually adjusted to match it. What I did to balance them (it was waaaaaay off, with a light behind the carbs you could tell one was WIIIIIDE open and the other was closed). There are tiny holes on both carb walls. These holes line up so that one is completely open and one is slightly behind the butterfly and halfway covers it up. 1 turn of the adjustment screw will either completely cover this tiny hole or completely open it up. I matched the 2 butterflies based on this measurement. Is it scientific? Nope. Will it work? I sure hope so, I feel like they are within a quarter turn of being perfect- but we'll see.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:06 PM   #26
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My '05's needles have only one clip groove, which is why adjustments have to made with shims. I haven't been around Ninja 250s long, but from what I know, it seems you have non-stock carbs, or someone changed your needles.

Needles I have that have multiple grooves have them 1mm apart. Methods vary, but you can get 1/2mm adjustments with 1/2mm shims or other nifty methods. But any shimming more than 1/2mm makes no sense.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
My '05's needles have only one clip groove, which is why adjustments have to made with shims. I haven't been around Ninja 250s long, but from what I know, it seems you have non-stock carbs, or someone changed your needles.

Needles I have that have multiple grooves have them 1mm apart. Methods vary, but you can get 1/2mm adjustments with 1/2mm shims or other nifty methods. But any shimming more than 1/2mm makes no sense.
I have a 2007 ninja 250. Can anyone confirm that the needles aren't stock by the photo? It's pretty high res so you should be able to see all the grooves. I can snap more pics of the carbs while they're out of the bike... Or better yet if anyone knows how to ID them... They are definitely Keihin cvk from the markings, but idk other than that. All the parts matched up from the rebuild kit I got for the proper carbs.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:17 PM   #28
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I have a 2007 ninja 250. Can anyone confirm that the needles aren't stock by the photo?.....
Original 2007 Ninja needles do not have grooves.

This may help:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...e_your_jetting
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:27 PM   #29
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I guess I remembered wrong when I said "one groove". The needle has a permanent head, I think. Right Hernan? In any case, that's why those need to be shimmed.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #30
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I guess I remembered wrong when I said "one groove". The needle has a permanent head, I think. Right Hernan? In any case, that's why those need to be shimmed.
It looks like this (two raising washers shown):

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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:49 PM   #31
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I have one shim under mine, and it really needs a 2nd one to completely get rid of the steady cruise speed surging. It's almost gone, but not quite, unless I use ethanol-free regular.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
It looks like this (two raising washers shown):

Ahhhh...
Well, hell. I guess if I'm using non-stock needles then I have no baseline to start, huh? Guess I just need to find a pair of stock needles. =\
I got my airbox out. I used the "unscrew the 2 halves and yank the thing out" method. It came out through the top with little trouble. I've got it soaking in the sink now, it's pretty dirty inside and out.

So I'm gonna cut the battery box off then get it put back in. I'm just gonna toss these needles back in and when I get the correct clip start in the middle and work from there. If I have them matched at least I should be able to get it running properly. If not, I'll get the right needles. It kind of makes sense though, now that I'm thinking about it. The way the shims were in there, it's like maybe one cylinder was super lean while the other was drowning in gas. It idled fine and low end was ~ok... but any full throttle bogged it down, and it wouldn't even keep me going over about 5k rpms, no matter what gear I was in. I hope this solves it. You guys rock- thanks for the input. =)
In other news, it's raining sideways here in NC. Hurricane Matthew is blowing through as we speak. Time for a beer and put this thing back together. At this point the carbs will come off easy enough and I can even get to the needles without removing them at all. awesome sauce. =)
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:53 PM   #33
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another thought...

Does anyone happen to have a spare needle sitting out around? If you could measure it from tip to the stock washer- that might help me figure out where the "stock" position would be with a clip. At least I'd know if it's more towards the top or bottom of the selection I have...
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
Original 2007 Ninja needles do not have grooves.

This may help:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...e_your_jetting
Thanks, I was actually getting my info off of that exact page. =)
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:58 PM   #35
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A measurement from a stock needle is not likely to help at all, since there are zillions of possible needle tapers and lengths.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 03:24 PM   #36
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You have a dyno jet kit in that bike. The multi clip position is the give away. So it looks like someone had them apart in the past to fit it. Wouldn't be the first time some idiot messed things up !

Regarding the fuel line, the piece of paper you found is not paper but a very fine gauze filter that should be in the fuel line just before the elbow into the carbs. This is the secondary filter that you were trying to add, the factory already did it for you !

Bikes that faile to Rev, but otherwise work OK are usually not getting enough fuel or air, or alternatively are getting to much, such that the AFR is NOT combustible. Looking at your pictures I'll take a punt & say not enough fuel due to some monkey screwing with your carbs.

I often question people when they say they did something, like adjust valves but then say well they think they did them right. You either know what you are doing & DID them right or you screwed it up. Don't take this the wrong way, but there is no "I think" to it !

If it ran OK with the crappy carb setup before you did stuff, then it's likely what you did that caused the fault !
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Old October 8th, 2016, 04:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohawk View Post
You have a dyno jet kit in that bike. The multi clip position is the give away. So it looks like someone had them apart in the past to fit it. Wouldn't be the first time some idiot messed things up !

Regarding the fuel line, the piece of paper you found is not paper but a very fine gauze filter that should be in the fuel line just before the elbow into the carbs. This is the secondary filter that you were trying to add, the factory already did it for you !

Bikes that faile to Rev, but otherwise work OK are usually not getting enough fuel or air, or alternatively are getting to much, such that the AFR is NOT combustible. Looking at your pictures I'll take a punt & say not enough fuel due to some monkey screwing with your carbs.

I often question people when they say they did something, like adjust valves but then say well they think they did them right. You either know what you are doing & DID them right or you screwed it up. Don't take this the wrong way, but there is no "I think" to it !

If it ran OK with the crappy carb setup before you did stuff, then it's likely what you did that caused the fault !
hahaha. Thanks man- I appreciate you being real.
Nah the valves are fine. Like I said I did them right, the "think" part was me being humble. I followed the specs to the T and even torqued to proper specs.

GOOD NEWS!
I got the carb back on, and the bike runs A LOT BETTER. There is a hurricane blowing through, so no test drive yet. In fact, it's not even back together, just tossed the tank on because I've still got a lot of work to do.
I did the airbox mod (cut off the battery try)- and I was trying to put it all back together and am having a bitch of a time trying to get the carbs back on. It is taking SOOOOO much longer than taking them off did. I tried putting them on the intake runners first- securing them then trying to fit the airbox to the carb. NO DICE. Couldn't get them to line up right after trying for like half an hour. Took it back apart and attached to the airbox. Then I had trouble getting the carbs/airbox onto the intake runners. Eventually I got them on, only to find the airbox loose. I had pushed the boots partially out of the airbox.
So- Ive got to go back in and fix that- but that's not too big a deal. I'll get it done tomorrow before I take her out. I cranked it up- took FOREVER. Almost killed my new battery cranking. I even hooked up fuel and sucked on the vacuum hose to the petcock to try and prime the bowls. Cranked and cranked and cranked, finally it fired up after I stuffed paper towels in the air intake holes (I hadn't hooked up the throttle cables/choke yet).
MAN! What a difference. I guess the bike NEVER ran right. Remember, this is my first motorcycle. I've ridden a scooter for a year- and that thing was where I learned a lot of my bike engine skills. It would literally only run about 2/3 of the time. I carried enough tools under the seat to completely remove the motor at any time. I have dome belts, valve jobs, carb cleanings etc ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD just to get home lol.
Anyway- once she fired up, it was apparent that I had a ninja 125 before. I have a 250 now. Is it perfect? No idea, prolly not. I have much work to go- but man- what a difference. It winds up like a 2 stroke... like a bike should wind up now. I had thought previously that it took a loooong time to wind up even with no load... like as fast as a full size car. Always thought bikes wound up a lot faster. Well, it winds up FAST now. So it's a HUGE improvement. Thank you guys so much for the help and feedback. I'll be sure to let you know of the outcome once I get it all back together and take her out. Also, the c-clips are in the mail and will go in once I get them in a few days. I don't expect I'll do more than a test drive until I get that in... don't want to ride around with a wire holding my needle.

@Mohawk- thanks for the info on the dynajet kit needle. That will help immensely when I try to tune it. I assume then that I can find a "baseline" kind of setting to start with and follow the wiki from there. I have even put an ad on craigslist to trade my 2 brothers straight pipe exhaust for a stock Kawasaki. It's just too loud. I can't sneak out of the house when my girl can hear me from 3 blocks away. ;-) Going back to stock parts will make tuning a WHOLE lot easier.
Anyway- I'll keep you guys in the loop. Thanks again for all the help!
-Andrew
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Old October 8th, 2016, 04:25 PM   #38
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UPDATE

Apparently Factory Pro makes a jet kit that is really a needle kit as well. This one has a steel needle with 5 clip positions. So really it could be one of either. That's good, though. Thanks @Mohawk for setting me on the right path. I think I can probably dial it in from here.
Found the info regarding this here...
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Ninja_2...le_Information
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Old October 9th, 2016, 12:23 AM   #39
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Go here to download dynojet installation PDF.
http://www.dynojet.com/jetkits/motor...le&vm=kawasaki

Glad you got it working.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 07:45 AM   #40
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I'm running the factory pro kit, with a 112 main, 40 pilot, and my needles at clip position 3. The bike runs absolutely perfect throughout the entire rpm range. It took me 3 try's to get the right combination of jets and needle positions, but man what a difference once it was running right with the jet kit, and a pod filter. Balls out at WOT, readily available passing power at cruise, its like a different bike.
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