Running Lean or Rich? need help

[alex.s]

you didn't follow my steps.

i would carefully examine every hose on the bike for damage seeing as you found one already.

then i would tune the bike in a progressive proceedure instead of just taking random stabs in the dark.

only change one thing at a time. if you change more than one thing, you have no idea which thing you changed effected what.

[mkulchar]

i changed up 1 size in main and did a full throttal test. took the plug out and the spark plug didnt change color at all. i cleaned the plug up to remove any old colors and rode at wot and it stayed the same. it looked the same as it did when i did the clean on it.. *clean is just with fine sand paper removed the excess crap that was on there* . And hoses seem all ok now.

Bike goes WOT great until 130kph, then doesnt go past that. 5th gear is 10krpm and 6th gear is 9krpm. It doesnt make sense how can it go to redline at wot at all speeds cant redline after 130rpms?



What does it mean when after WOT that the rpms stick at 3k for 5secs when u come to a stop and very slowly drift down.

[pomartin]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

i changed up 1 size in main and did a full throttal test. took the plug out and the spark plug didnt change color at all. i cleaned the plug up to remove any old colors and rode at wot and it stayed the same. it looked the same as it did when i did the clean on it.. *clean is just with fine sand paper removed the excess crap that was on there* . And hoses seem all ok now.

Bike goes WOT great until 130kph, then doesnt go past that. 5th gear is 10krpm and 6th gear is 9krpm. It doesnt make sense how can it go to redline at wot at all speeds cant redline after 130rpms?



What does it mean when after WOT that the rpms stick at 3k for 5secs when u come to a stop and very slowly drift down.

when after fully-open throttle and activated clutch rpms do not decrease (you have to close the throttle too ) constantly.. after throttle is closed rpms constantly decrease from lets say 12k to 3k, then stuck at 3k rpm for some time and then decrease to minimum
(if this happens you re running lean )

[mkulchar]

Originally Posted by pomartin

when after fully-open throttle and activated clutch rpms do not decrease (you have to close the throttle too ) constantly.. after throttle is closed rpms constantly decrease from lets say 12k to 3k, then stuck at 3k rpm for some time and then decrease to minimum
(if this happens you re running lean )

yah that is exatly what is happening. It runs when i close throttle completly after wot rpms drop to 3 then sits there for like 5secs and very slowly go down. So i guess i need to up my mains to a 102 (105kliens). ran it without the airfilter and it ran the same basically, engine ran little hotter it seemed then the super hot that it runs with the filter in.

[alex.s]

You should follow a proceedure instead of taking stabs in the dark. Your pilot system is lean. The pilot system and not returning to idle is a separate issue from not having good power. What color are the plugs? When you run it at the rpm you want to check, you should pull the clutch and immediately turn the bike off and come to a stop so you don't pollute your plug reading.

I wrote a fancy post on how to fix your issues in this thread . Maybe you would find use from it

[mkulchar]

i understand what you ar talking about and apprieate the write up. I just seems weird what is happening. It runs great when riding up to 7k (close throttle - rpms drop to 1.5 steady without stoping) and the pilot system doesnt seem to be lean at that speeds. It is only after going WOT then releasing the clutch and Stoping that the rpms go from 12-3k then sits a 3k for a long time and slowly go down.

why would it do that only after WOT.... Is the main being to lean... (due to only being able to reach 130kmp then stopping and sysmpotoms only happening when wot) OR is it still all pilot system and need to play with the screws some more.

Cause my basic understanding that the pilot is only controlling idle and the the mains is for WOT.

Did the spark plug tests and they never seem to change color from after cleaning them. they stay the same.. clean. Im suppose to look at the ring of the spark plug or top hook that the spark hits?

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

.... after going WOT then releasing the clutch and Stoping that the rpms go from 12-3k then sits a 3k for a long time and slowly go down.
....why would it do that only after WOT....

The carb has a coasting enricher. It's a small round vacuum operated diaphragm that sits on the side of the carb with vacuum hose attached. This helps keep the bike running when the throttle is chopped from WOT and also reduces the frequency of backfire from being way too lean. If this was not working the engine would cut off. When the engine and bike is moving, it is still going to make a vacuum to keep itself running. The fact that the idle is hanging suggest that you may have a lean spot at about 1/8-1/4 throttle, a vacuum leak or in need of a *valve adjustment (*indicated by poor idling). Try easing of the throttle instead of chopping it and see if that makes a difference.

Also keep in mind, that a lot of humidity will make the engine run a little richer .

[alex.s]

I like blues thoughts. If your main is way too rich it could also be pooling gas in the intake walls that bleeds back in when you release it.

[mkulchar]

ok its been awhile and had the bike on a dyno and it seems to finnaly work at little better with the whole hanging at 3k stuff..

Only problem i seem to be having now is that no matter what i do i cant exceed 130kph. power just stops and that all she goes.

Im not sure but we think its that it is to rich in the 8-10k range so the engine is unable to burn it all to go faster.. but now i don't know because i then replaced my sportisi needles with the stock no shims and i still am not able to go above 125kpm. alot of popping and gurgling, so it is to lean.. So i have no idea.

Here is the chart

[alex.s]

it only goes 130kph because it only has 20hp.

you can see on the AF chart on the dyno sheet, it starts off too rich, gets up to have decent 14.0AF then dips back down way rich on the open up to the main jet, then is way rich on the main jet.

go down one main jet size and drop the needle one clip. (put the clip on a higher setting to drop the needle)

[mkulchar]

i thought tho that when it goes below the line that it it to rich. That air is above the line and fuel is below the line....?

[alex.s]

i accidentally had it backwards. blame dyslexia or maybe just lazy reading. i edited my reply

popping and gurgling means rich

[mkulchar]

So im using sportisi 98s so i wil then put the stock 98 back in. And with the needles i duno how im goin to put a e-clip and a spacer on the needle (unable to sandwich the needles because of not enough clearance. So it would be just a e-clip with a lose spacer( plastic washer) on top..

ill see what i can do.

[alex.s]

why switch back to stock? put the sportisi needle in and adjust the clip. then put a smaller sportisi jet in. when you bought the jet kit it came with several sizes of jets right? the dyno chart you have is very valuable but only with the setup you tested with, switching to stock will throw you off.

[DaBlue1]

The bike being rich in the 8-10k range seems to be normal. What you really want to do is richen up the low & mid-range by adjusting the needle height. A couple of shims will do.

On these dyno runs, was the snorkel in or out?
What was your main jet size?
Pipercross or stock air filter?
What is your sprocket combo? (Changing it will increase your top end speed).
Full exhaust or slip on ?
What gear was the dyno test done in. If it was 4th that's the reason for the 130 kph
Do you redline when shifting gears?

[mkulchar]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

The bike being rich in the 8-10k range seems to be normal. What you really want to do is richen up the low & mid-range by adjusting the needle height. A couple of shims will do.

On these dyno runs, was the snorkel in or out?
What was your main jet size?
Pipercross or stock air filter?
What is your sprocket combo? (Changing it will increase your top end speed).
Full exhaust or slip on ?
What gear was the dyno test done in. If it was 4th that's the reason for the 130 kph
Do you redline when shifting gears?

Main jet: 98 sportisi
Air filter: Pipercross
Snorkel out.
15 45(stock) before mods speed was 160 easy
Full exhaust
No idea what gear was done in. 130kph is when im driving it so can be in 4-6 nothing changes
During testing on roads redline. on dyno was not there so dont know details


After tests i put the snorkel back in and it ran smoother thro the rev range then without it.

Originally Posted by alex.s

why switch back to stock? put the sportisi needle in and adjust the clip. then put a smaller sportisi jet in. when you bought the jet kit it came with several sizes of jets right? the dyno chart you have is very valuable but only with the setup you tested with, switching to stock will throw you off.

sportisi (dj sizes) 98s are little richer then stock 98s otherwise im goin to have to go to sportisi 96s. And needle height i can drop just only be able ot use 1 e-clip and 1 washer on top... since no room to sandwhich the washer.



Iam now confused with dablue now telling me to up size not down size... What to do.

What i understand from this is that i run to lean in the needles then to rich in mains.. SOOO raise needles to 3rd clip and lower the main jet to a STOCK 98s OR a sportisi 96

[alex.s]

have you tried 96 jets? did they help? you didnt try them? why not? did you only try 98s? when you tune a carb you have to actually change things.

[alex.s]

with normal pump gas, 14.1 is considered ideal. your entire rev range is too rich.

[mkulchar]

no i havent he did mention that i could down to a 96 cause rich. I tried the 100s mains. but now since i have the chart im goin to then try the 96s. see what happens

and the needles should be drooped or raised? it looks lean from 5k to 8k

[alex.s]

honestly 96 is probably still too rich. was 100s better or worse than the 98s you have in? obviously it worse or you would still have them in... so that told you something... it gave you a direction... but then you didnt follow it. you need to actually ... like... you know, try different settings... in order to know if they are better or worse. i remember writing this big long post about the best way to go about doing it... i wonder where it went

[DaBlue1]

[QUOTE=mkulchar;535974]Main jet: 98 sportisi
...After tests i put the snorkel back in and it ran smoother thro the rev range then without it
/QUOTE]

Whether you have the stock needles or Sportisi needles, just move them up. leave the snorkel in. Keep your main jet size. Going up will only make you richer at 8-10k and a tiny bit above that range.

Were you able to increase your speed any further than 130kph with the snorkel in?
With stock gears @ 11500 rpm your speed should be approx 135 kph in 5th gear @ 12000 rpm 139kph in 5th.

Have you checked your speed by GPS?

[mkulchar]

had 100s took to the dyno and saw it was to rich back to 98s and dyno guy said still little rich that we can go down more 96 or 94s. Then 8-10k is rich and affected by the needles so he told me to try stock needles. but then that seems to lean.

SO now im goin to lower my mains see if any better (mains -8rpm +). The needle is affecting the 5-7k range correct? so then that is to lean and needs to be shimmed again.

So im getting there and i did read your guide.

[mkulchar]

[QUOTE=DaBlue1;535991]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

Main jet: 98 sportisi
...After tests i put the snorkel back in and it ran smoother thro the rev range then without it
/QUOTE]

Whether you have the stock needles or Sportisi needles, just move them up. leave the snorkel in. Keep your main jet size. Going up will only make you richer at 8-10k and a tiny bit above that range.

Were you able to increase your speed any further than 130kph with the snorkel in?
With stock gears @ 11500 rpm your speed should be approx 135 kph in 5th gear @ 12000 rpm 139kph in 5th.

Have you checked your speed by GPS?

I was not able to increase my speed at all with the snorkel in, bike bike just ran smoother thro ou the rev range.

in 5th i can only get to about 10k before it stops accel and 9k in 6th gear once you hit 130ish

And no have not checked with gps

[mkulchar]

ok to get this straight i need a soild answer.


1. From chart Mains (8k-12k) is rich SO need to lower my jet size
2. Needles (5-8k) is lean SO need to Raise neddle height

If anything is wrong let me know please so i can start working on the bike

thanks

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

The needle is affecting the 5-7k range correct? so then that is to lean and needs to be shimmed again.[/B]

Correct.
Also depending on what rpm range you normally ride in you want a little richness.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

ok to get this straight i need a soild answer.


1. From chart Mains (8k-12k) is rich SO need to lower my jet size
2. Needles (5-8k) is lean SO need to Raise neddle height

If anything is wrong let me know please so i can start working on the bike

thanks

Good place to start.

[msebastian]

Take it to a shop and let them get it straight for ya or switch to FI. Seems like you have been getting great advice and not so much following it. I hope you get it fixed and can get back to enjoying your bike.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

ok to get this straight i need a soild answer.


1. From chart Mains (8k-12k) is rich SO need to lower my jet size
2. Needles (5-8k) is lean SO need to Raise neddle height

If anything is wrong let me know please so i can start working on the bike

thanks

do the mains first. the needles are a valve on the main jet, so doing anything to the main jet also effects the needle transition. change the main jets and it will bring everything up leaner. ideally you would get a new dyno chart with 94s in there then you know what to do with your needle but if yoou dont go back to the dyno right away and theres trouble transitioning through the needle opening (5-9kish) then try changing the needle. if its choppy there, try going down. if its smooth but not much power try raising it

[Kevin2109]

Have you tried putting your mouth over the exhaust? You should be able to taste the difference between lean and rich. If it tastes like chocolate you are dead on, dont touch a thing

[alex.s]

i was wondering why your exhaust pipe tasted like fish......

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i was wondering why your exhaust pipe tasted like fish......

It gets like that when I dont clean it often enough....

[Kevin2109]

hahaha @alex.s



Then I remembered the comment about it tasting like fish... ewww

[mkulchar]

lol, ive been following the advice and changed my mains to 96s and top speed was the same as the stock 98 and the 98djs 142kph. 100s where worse. So im guessing its the engine causeing the issues now.

[DaBlue1]

Have you ever tried your current intake setup w/ the stock exhaust?

[mkulchar]

no i have not. you thinking it could be the exhaust causing the issues? does the stock exhaust use crush washers or do i just slap her on as is?

[DaBlue1]

Yeah, you would need exhaust header gaskets, but since you're testing and comparing everything, why not test the exhaust?

[mkulchar]

stupid question: im goin to double check my slides in the carbs to make sure it goes up smoothly. The sping that goes in the diafram it only goes in 1 way right? the little plastic piece that goes in the spring just slides in until the little feet touch the spring right? basically just sits in there loosely.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Kevin2109

Have you tried putting your mouth over the exhaust? You should be able to taste the difference between lean and rich. If it tastes like chocolate you are dead on, dont touch a thing

lolwut? I just smell mine
Posted via Mobile Device

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by mkulchar

lol, ive been following the advice and changed my mains to 96s and top speed was the same as the stock 98 and the 98djs 142kph. 100s where worse. So im guessing its the engine causeing the issues now.

Did you try 94 mains? What about 92? Do you have any other jets? Try them and make notes about how they did. What rev range is it stuck at

[mkulchar]

the lowest i have is a 96. and from what i tell the 96s and stock 98s feel the best almost the same. i got the bike to close to 150kphm after cleaning the carbs again and checkin the plugs making sure the coils are connected all the way. plugs are black as when i checked so i know its running rich, but at
which point i duno.

I installed the snorkel back in and it did run smoother then without the snorkel. Yes i could take it out to lean it out but then it doesnt seem to run as smooth. (what is the purpose of the snorkle anyway? just to richen it up?)So now im using the stock jets atm.

Im calling a different tuning shop to see if they can fix it with there dyno.