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Old June 20th, 2013, 11:18 AM   #1
indr
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Recently Rebuilt - Engine Cranks but won't start

2010 model.

The whole motor was apart, along with the carbs, and electrical.

The issue is that the bike doesn't catch, ie.. It will crank and crank, but won't run.

1) The starter motor is functional, I can hear it.

2) The battery is full, otherwise the starter motor wouldn't run.

3) There is proper spark in both plugs.

4) I can feel air coming out of the exhaust, tho I still have to do a proper compression test. But, fresh piston rings and gaskets were installed. The valves were also adjusted.

5) The fuel is reaching the float bowls.

I posted this on another forum and was pointed to maybe a fuel delivery problem. I'm going to test this by spraying some starter fluid in the air box.

Other causes could be clogged jets... they were sitting out in a plastic bag for a while before I put them on the bike. But, chances of both jets being clogged at the same time are low.

I also could have gotten the carb hoses mixed up.

Any other ideas are welcome.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #2
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you need air, fuel , compression, and spark to make an engine run, you have air and spark, now you need to determine compression and fuel. never guess with carbs, when in doubt, tear them apart and put them back together properly. gonna need more detail/pics to give you a better answer.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #3
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I attempted to crank with a few squirts of starter fluid in the airbox. Nothing.

So, the next step is testing the compression.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
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I attempted to crank with a few squirts of starter fluid in the airbox. Nothing.

So, the next step is testing the compression.
is timing 180'ed?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 02:19 PM   #5
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wut?

I aligned the timing marks with the cam sprocket marks and all that jazz pretty well. I should double check.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 02:21 PM   #6
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i meant spark timing not valve timing
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Old June 20th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #7
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How would I figure that out? The wires from the kill switch and IC igniter are going to the the appropriate coils and tabs on coils.

Also, I just ran a compression test with wide open throttle on both cylinders. Left cylinder reads 135 PSI and right reads 145 PSI. Left is outside the usability range. And right is well on the lower end.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #8
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even if the pistons were leaking pretty bad, with any kinda of compression it should spark up and fire some hot gas out the exhaust if you had fuel and spark at the right time.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #9
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So, you're saying it's the ignition timing?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by indr View Post
How would I figure that out? The wires from the kill switch and IC igniter are going to the the appropriate coils and tabs on coils.

Also, I just ran a compression test with wide open throttle on both cylinders. Left cylinder reads 135 PSI and right reads 145 PSI. Left is outside the usability range. And right is well on the lower end.
Did you follow with a wet test?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #11
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So, you're saying it's the ignition timing?
It was not clear from your other thread whether you followed this advice or not:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...08&postcount=4

If the timing is correct, the next thing to check is the gap in the sensor coil respect to the alternator.

Weak sparks can appear at atmospheric pressure, but simply not happening at 9 or 10 times that pressure at the end of the compression stroke.

The low compression values are normal for new rings, IMHO; they will improve much after break-in.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
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It was not clear from your other thread whether you followed this advice or not:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...08&postcount=4

If the timing is correct, the next thing to check is the gap in the sensor coil respect to the alternator.

Weak sparks can appear at atmospheric pressure, but simply not happening at 9 or 10 times that pressure at the end of the compression stroke.

The low compression values are normal for new rings, IMHO; they will improve much after break-in.
I wired the coils as per the responses in that thread and the wiring diagram.

I guess that means draining the coolant and opening up the stator cover.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #13
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FYI the spark fires on both upward strokes. Spark timing cannot be 180 off. There is a wasted spark.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #14
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...........I guess that means draining the coolant and opening up the stator cover.
Not saying that the gap is your problem, just pointing to another variable in the equation.

Stupid question: did you enable the sparks and open the throttles all the way while spraying the intakes?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #15
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Look at this video that explains how a crank shaft sensor works. Skip to the 1:37 mark

1) Would I still be getting a spark if the north and south poles on the magnet were switched?

2) If I unhook the sensor from the harness and hook up a meter to it, should I be getting a fluctuating reading for volts and ohms?

3) Would #2 happen if the poles were reversed?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgk View Post
Did you follow with a wet test?
What is a wet test?

EDIT: Just looked it up. I'm reading that the compression is low because of the new rings, but, I'll test wet again tomorrow.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:47 AM   #17
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Look at this video.........


Take a look at these articles:

http://www.dansmc.com/cdiignition.htm

http://www.dansmc.com/electricaltesting.htm

http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm

But before you go into the dark path of electricity, insist on the spray into the naked (no filter) inlet (WOT) first.

Also verify that the level that the fuel reaches inside the bowls is as specified in the manual.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:57 AM   #18
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also keep your face away from carb area when spraying......
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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:24 PM   #19
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I did the starter fluid test again and it ran!!! And then died after a few seconds.

It'd been so long since I heard my bike run, even for a little bit. Well over a year.

So, I'm guess the problem is fuel delivery and the carbs need to come off...???
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Old June 21st, 2013, 01:06 PM   #20
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Sounds like a fuel issue. It might not be no fuel but the amount.

What is your jetting?
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Old June 21st, 2013, 01:14 PM   #21
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Stock. With the little screws at the bottom of the carbs turned out twice from all the way inside. Carbs coming off tomorrow anyways.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 03:17 PM   #22
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is your gas tank turned on?

is fuel making it into the carbs?

is there a vacuum leak?
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Old June 21st, 2013, 03:19 PM   #23
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If you didnt take your carbs out yet, it might be good to check the fuel height inside the bowls
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Old June 21st, 2013, 04:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
is your gas tank turned on?

is fuel making it into the carbs?

is there a vacuum leak?
Yes.

Yes.

Don't know.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgk View Post
If you didnt take your carbs out yet, it might be good to check the fuel height inside the bowls
I checked it. The bowls centers line up with the mating surface on the carb body when held at the same angle as shown in the manual.

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Old June 22nd, 2013, 04:01 PM   #26
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Pulled the carbs out. Cleaned and blew every single hole. Changed four pair of gloves to avoid contamination. Put it back together and installed it. Nothing changed, at all.

Again, tried the starter fluid in the airbox and it ran and shut down again.

So, what's next?

I'm thinking it's the coils. I'm getting a spark, but it's not sufficient to ignite gasoline (with it's higher ignition temp). Also, FYI, I am using 18 AWG wires running to the coils. Could this be causing not enough current reaching the coils and a spark too weak to ignite gas?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 04:22 PM   #27
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Cleaned and blew every single hole.
He he
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:01 PM   #28
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so, you have gas in the carbs, and the level is right; you cleaned out the orifices, and the petcock is on prime; the spark and cam timing are right because it fires on starting fluid...

Try some different gas in the tank.

If the bike ran before the rebuild on your stock coils, they probably didn't go bad while sitting... your gas probably did.

This is not unusual.

Good luck!
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:10 PM   #29
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The gas is new. But, it might be bad because of where I bought it from. It seems to lack that real strong gasoline-y smell.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:21 PM   #30
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vaccum hoses correct?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 07:11 PM   #31
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Did you fully inspect the carbs and do a thorough cleaning?

remove all the jets and clean out the orifices? Were you able to see through the holes in the jets? Stick some strands of copper speaker wire into the starter jets and see if any crud comes out. As far as I know, you can't remove the starter jets. The holes are very tiny so if they're clogged you would have trouble starting it.

Were the idle mixture screws tampered with? Stock unmolested carbs should have a the screws covered up.

Is your throttle plates closed and not stuck open?
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:00 PM   #32
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vaccum hoses correct?
Yes. Checked and double checked.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:02 PM   #33
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Did you fully inspect the carbs and do a thorough cleaning?

remove all the jets and clean out the orifices? Were you able to see through the holes in the jets? Stick some strands of copper speaker wire into the starter jets and see if any crud comes out. As far as I know, you can't remove the starter jets. The holes are very tiny so if they're clogged you would have trouble starting it.

Were the idle mixture screws tampered with? Stock unmolested carbs should have a the screws covered up.

Is your throttle plates closed and not stuck open?
Carbs are very properly cleaned out. All holes cleaned very nicely. No crud. I did get rid of the plugs that hide the idle mixture screws but they are set to very close to stock settings are specified in the manual.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:02 PM   #34
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I have also replaced the old gas with some fresh from a different station. Still no go.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:07 PM   #35
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Carbs are very properly cleaned out. All holes cleaned very nicely. No crud. I did get rid of the plugs that hide the idle mixture screws but they are set to very close to stock settings are specified in the manual.
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.... With the little screws at the bottom of the carbs turned out twice from all the way inside.
So why did you not set both to at least 2.5 turns out?
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:10 PM   #36
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....I did the starter fluid test again and it ran!!! And then died after a few seconds.
If it runs on starter fluid, it should run on choke, provided the fuel bowls are full.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:35 PM   #37
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So why did you not set both to at least 2.5 turns out?
OMG. I love you man.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:52 PM   #38
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so does it start now?
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:08 PM   #39
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Yes. Funny how half a turn was the difference between it running and not. And between me almost parting it out to buy something else.

Thank you, all.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:53 PM   #40
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Yes. Funny how half a turn was the difference between it running and not. And between me almost parting it out to buy something else.

Thank you, all.


It's about time. Seems like you've been working on that bike forever.
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