Oil in the coolant, Brown Sludge, The curse continues!

[f0r54ken]

This bike is a Great learning experience, but honestly I'd rather remain stupid for a few of these things.

So My bike was getting warm really easy, Way too easy, Shortly after I got to work and on the way home. (I drove low rpms at high speed to keep it cooled) I monitor it closely because I have a manual switch for the fan That I leave on after 20% heat. The bike has never overheated with me Except for slightly the very first time I discovered the thermometor was Malfunctioning.
Although the person before me May have let it overheat.

Normally It's good and run well. but after taking the stator/flywheel assembly and water pump cover off twice. I'm getting a brown sludge Within the coolant. I extracted some an gave it a good smell. It's definitely oil. I looked it up and some dudes are claiming a bad head gasket seal. Another guy leans toward the "Waterpump/Crankcase seal" I'm leaning toward this too.

Nevertheless I disassembled EVERYTHING, I drained the oil (No water, no sludge.) Drained the rad (8% sludge. 92% Green Fluid)
Took off the radiator, coolant Reservoir, Pipes, tubes, Spark Boots, Spark controllers (Those gray electric cylinders), Waterpump cover, Gas tank, Fairings, and Cleaned the Hell out of the whole coolant system (Dawn Soap and a LOT of water pressure + Rinsing., Then took off the Engine head.

It's hard to see beyond this with the Engine Frame in the way. but the header doesn't have the paper gasket in between like the generator cover does. Instead it has a custom shaped O ring that Falls into a custom depression between the head and main body. (Is this the head gasket?)

Since I decided to go nuclear I Feel the this might be an opportunity most of us don't get. I can't take pictures right now But I will, and a video putting it back together. But Can anyone suggest where I can check and what to check for? I don't see any cracks, But Maybe there is something I can spin to turn to see Minor leaks. Would you suggest putting some oil in the engine and turning the crank manually to see if any comes out somewhere? Or is there something I'm missing from opening the generator cover that was no assembled back right and could mix the two?

Thanks in advanced friends!

[f0r54ken]

I forgot to mention this,But the head bolts weren't too hard to get off. I COuld not have done it with my fingers but I likely could have done it with a regular pair of plyers with ease. This might change things just a little.

Also I checked the gasket by removing it completely, The gasket and the head are not warped/damaged, thank god.

[Ghostt]

Since you went with the nuclear option, then replace all seals, gaskets, etc.... You did replace the thermostat? Replace the radiator cap? Take the radiator to a radiator shop, and have it professionally serviced, and pressure checked. Might as well get new coolant hoses too, silicone hose kit like I did.

Beyond that, I'm out of ideas, but you went nuclear option, so might as well go all in.

Don't forget to lap the head, and cylinder, and new head gasket.

The exhaust pipe uses a copper crush ring.


You have all winter long to take your time, and get it right.

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Since you went with the nuclear option, then replace all seals, gaskets, etc.... You did replace the thermostat? Replace the radiator cap? Take the radiator to a radiator shop, and have it professionally serviced, and pressure checked. Might as well get new coolant hoses too, silicone hose kit like I did.

Beyond that, I'm out of ideas, but you went nuclear option, so might as well go all in.

Don't forget to lap the head, and cylinder, and new head gasket.

The exhaust pipe uses a copper crush ring.


You have all winter long to take your time, and get it right.

Well, Unfortunately this is my main ride. I bought it In a hurry after my car sank I've seen bad seals/gaskets before And looking at these they looks Pretty spiffy to be honest. No abrasions to be found. The bike has about 8000 miles on it and it looks like i'm the first one to ever open it up. To be honest I'd rather not pay someone for something I can do. Taking stuff apart and putting it back isn't a problem for me It's all that Magic detective crap in between.

I know I went straight for the throat, But much like the starter clutch issue I had before, I'd rather absolutely determine something bad before Closing my eyes and throwing money at it. Since I have the Rad system completely disassembled I can check that well for abrasions too. Honestly it all looks pretty tight. I promise it's not just wishful thinking. I'll bring my show and tell photos tomorrow.

So here is what I'm wondering, What are the only points where oil can drop into the rad assembly? So far I can only spot two possibles, Being the drop tube on the back of the engine and the Crank gear turning the coolant pump. I want to check that seal cause the head gasket seal looks really clean. Is there a way to get the Pump spindle off without taking the whole engine apart?

**edited to answer what I missed before. Stock rad cap and thermo. I have not replaced them. Have checked for damage. Rad Cap Could be bent but can't tell without comparison, Thermo is still a moving part in some way. Since it's all off I'll likely remove it and Check for Corrosion and sediment locking. If it's acting up it's probably getting the some kind of siezure from sitting in the sun for years. If I ever find the guy who sold this to me again I just might Give him a swift kick in the ass for neglecting this bad boy.**

[spooph]

The only place where oil and coolant can mix is in the headgasket (the patterned metal shim between the head and the cylinders) or the water pump shaft seal as you've stated. The water pump is sold as an assembly, so you'll have to buy a new one of those. You should also replace the headgasket, and don't forget to replace the head bolts as they are stretch bolts and one time use.

[dcj13]

Worst case: cracked block or cracked head.

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by spooph

The only place where oil and coolant can mix is in the headgasket (the patterned metal shim between the head and the cylinders) or the water pump shaft seal as you've stated. The water pump is sold as an assembly, so you'll have to buy a new one of those. You should also replace the headgasket, and don't forget to replace the head bolts as they are stretch bolts and one time use.

Ah crap, those bolts are one time use?...Shoot well that Ends the hope of a speedy resolution... How loose should those head bolts have been? Cause they Lost their grip on the head pretty easily. They would have lost tension with a pair of plyers with low pressure.

Has anyone replaced the waterpump before? the diagram does no justice
Do I need to release the axel from the Transmission side? I can't find another way to get it loose if I had too. (cover and bolts removed.)

[spooph]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

Ah crap, those bolts are one time use?...Shoot well that Ends the hope of a speedy resolution... How loose should those head bolts have been? Cause they Lost their grip on the head pretty easily. They would have lost tension with a pair of plyers with low pressure.

Has anyone replaced the waterpump before? the diagram does no justice
Do I need to release the axel from the Transmission side? I can't find another way to get it loose if I had too. (cover and bolts removed.)

The headbolts torque spec for the new gen is 18ft.lbs, so, not much. Not sure about the pregen, doubt it's all that different. You could probably undo that with a pair of pliers, although I have no idea how you got them in there.. You sure you're not referring to the valve cover bolts? Pics will help.

Waterpump is easy, with the 2 bolts removed, just pull. If you have to pry, there's still a bolt holding it to the cases.

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by spooph

The headbolts torque spec for the new gen is 18ft.lbs, so, not much. Not sure about the pregen, doubt it's all that different. You could probably undo that with a pair of pliers, although I have no idea how you got them in there.. You sure you're not referring to the valve cover bolts? Pics will help.

Waterpump is easy, with the 2 bolts removed, just pull. If you have to pry, there's still a bolt holding it to the cases.

Oh no I used a ratchet and a 10ml. lol I was only saying that as a concept.

Yeah it's definitely the head. Had to remove the spark boots and gas tank, The radiator, and the spark cylinders apparatus to reach it, 4 (10ml) bolts in symmetrical format. visibility of the valves and chain inside the engine. I'll try to get pictures tonight but my phone was dead yesterday during disassembly.

Also the Sludge is down the storm drain so I can't get you guys a picture of that. I'll be taking a close look at the top of the scalp tonight for cracks and what not, but honestly the hea dhas no warping and the gasket looks great. Also The tube for the antifreeze comes up 3 inches above the engine it looks physically impossible for the oil to get into the rad sys from there. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. I would definitely like a better understanding of that cooling junction.

As for the water pump assemblyI'm having a lot of trouble seeing more bolts. I will double check but after moving the cover off I don't see anything else I can remove from the left side of the bike to get the turbine (or whatever) out. I think I got pictures of that piece. I'll have to add them later my work computer won't let me use photobucket properly.

If I wanted to test that seal. could I fill the oil into the engine as normal then manually crank the flywheel through the little hole? will that force the oil to flow and possbily show the leak if there is one?

[sh123469]

Wow, you sure are going through it with this bike.

The 4 10mm bolts are the valve cover bolts. If you still have the valve train and cams in, you just took off the cover. In order to remove the head, the valve train and cams have to come out. Then, the head bolts should be under there. I have not gone that far into the engine on the Ninja, have been there many times on other engines.

You can get oil in the water from a bad water pump seal, bad head gasket, or cracked block or head. I'd be tempted to change the water pump since you've been monkeying around with it and now have this problem. Head gaskets don't usually just blow and with that few miles, I doubt that's the source of your oil.

You can't turn the engine fast enough to pump any reasonable amount of oil to check the seal. It's under 50 or so pounds of pressure at road speed.

Like someone else has already said, since you went nuclear, replace all the gaskets and seals that you have opened, replace the hoses, check and maybe replace the thermostat, since the rad is out, replace the temp switch that's been giving you problems.

[spooph]

Ok, lol, that's definitely the valve cover, not the head.

This is what you removed:


This is the head:


so you're not that deep into the engine, nor are you nuclear.

There is no way for oil to get from the valve cover into the coolant tube at the top of the head which you are describing. If oil could get in, coolant could get out and there would be a very obvious leak. Your cooling system would also boil very easily.

Here you can see how the water pump comes out:


I count 2 mounting bolts, items: 92153 on the parts diagram above.

If it's leaking oil out of the valve cover, and the valve cover rubber gasket isn't cracked anywhere, you might want to try adding a light coating of rtv or Kawibond top and bottom when you put it back. The bikes come this way from the factory, and if Kawi does it, we should too...

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by spooph

Ok, lol, that's definitely the valve cover, not the head.

This is what you removed:


This is the head:


so you're not that deep into the engine, nor are you nuclear.

There is no way for oil to get from the valve cover into the coolant tube at the top of the head which you are describing. If oil could get in, coolant could get out and there would be a very obvious leak. Your cooling system would also boil very easily.

Here you can see how the water pump comes out:


I count 2 mounting bolts, items: 92153 on the parts diagram above.

If it's leaking oil out of the valve cover, and the valve cover rubber gasket isn't cracked anywhere, you might want to try adding a light coating of rtv or Kawibond top and bottom when you put it back. The bikes come this way from the factory, and if Kawi does it, we should too...

Yeah you guys are right, I think I only took off the hat...

While I was at it I wanted to do the valve adjustments, that didn't work cause I couldn't fit the damn ratchet with those like, Bracers in the way. I think I'm gonna need a really low profile 3 inch extender.

But yeah back to the topic, I watched a really nice video on youtube of a guy taking his 2006 250 head off. What a NIGHTMARE! I just put what I had back together and re-secured the waterpump with some rtv. I'm only gonna have this bike for about 4 more paychecks (2 months) and sell it for a very fair price to someone. I mean, I can fix this overtime, but this bike just seems to spawn new random problems. it's cursed. something new is just gonna go wrong after I fix the mystery problem.

And when it's your only ride. it sucks to take it apart every weekend. You guys have been great, But This bike's imminent failures are too unpredictable.

Sorry for the vent!

I reassembled everything nice and tight. Fresh RTV for the Water pump engine side and exposed side, pipes are Tight and Rtv'd and I did that thing everyone suggests where you leave the rad cap off and run the bike. I filled it till I saw a River of circulation in the chamber flowing out the top and falling to the bottom. It was actually kind of pretty.

I'm going to check for sludge everyday for two weeks. and I feel like I've ruled out the water pump. I did some flow tests on it with gravity and water. didn't get any leaks from it's assembly. So that's only gonna leave that Head gasket :/ or worse. Maybe a crack in the hull.

Iuno, Maybe I'll get inspired after halloween, we'll see.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

While I was at it I wanted to do the valve adjustments, that didn't work cause I couldn't fit the damn ratchet with those like, Bracers in the way. I think I'm gonna need a really low profile 3 inch extender.

You want to buy or borrow the 57001-1220 valve adjuster tool.

But wait until you know the head or block isn't cracked!

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by dcj13

You want to buy or borrow the 57001-1220 valve adjuster tool.

But wait until you know the head or block isn't cracked!

Oooh! That looks nifty... Alright If I have oil in the coolant over the next few days. I'll pick that part up. When I get a ninja 650 I'm sure the nuts will be the same in it. I don't usually regret buying tools. I think I can get to the head, But I need one hell of a plan before I get into it. and probably a solid 3 days off so I can take my time.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

Oooh! That looks nifty... Alright If I have oil in the coolant over the next few days. I'll pick that part up. When I get a ninja 650 I'm sure the nuts will be the same in it. I don't usually regret buying tools. I think I can get to the head, But I need one hell of a plan before I get into it. and probably a solid 3 days off so I can take my time.

The ninja 650 uses shim and buckets, not rockers and tappets, and that tool would be useless to you...

Too bad your so far away, or I'd have that baby in a pile-o-parts and back again in no time!

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by spooph

The ninja 650 uses shim and buckets, not rockers and tappets, and that tool would be useless to you...

Too bad your so far away, or I'd have that baby in a pile-o-parts and back again in no time!

Haha yeah that's the worst part. Everyone who knows this stuff the best lives out in "Ride or die" lands. Like literally if your ride breaks down you'll freeze to death, or starve. Which is a good motivation to keep it working properly. haha.

I figured bigger bikes used similar tech, just more parts. I guess that's a wrong assumption. What really would be nice would be a friend to borrow these specialized tools from, But my generation is full of slackers with no trades or skills. :/ Need more old guy friends...

[sh123469]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you about slackers. maybe they'll catch on sometime.

My son is one of the few in his generation that I have seen that even has tools or knows what to do with them. I've been teaching him since he was young when something is messed up what to do to fix it. I let him turn the wrench so he would remember and explained to him why you do this or that and what difference it will make.

Since he got old enough to have a car, he's been doing many of his own repairs and I've helped him with many more. He's saved enough in repair bills to buy a car over the last 4 or 5 years.

I put a lot of that on the parents. The just give the kid a new one or send it off to be fixed rather than put the time and effort into helping their child learn and save some money.

There is so much more I could teach my son but he doesn't have the time or really the desire to learn it. Knowledge is a terrible thing to waste. It'll cost you in the long run.

I'll get off my soap box now. You, sir, are right when you say that those with the knowledge are getting few and far between. We are slowly dying off and there are few replacements up and coming.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

When I get a ninja 650 I'm sure the nuts will be the same in it.

Hard to say without checking. The nifty Ninjette tool does not fit my KLR250. Fortunately, there's enough room above the baby KLR head to do the job with regular toolbox tools.

[xXecuterXx2]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

But my generation is full of slackers with no trades or skills. :/ Need more old guy friends...

Tell. Me. About. It.

[f0r54ken]

So I'm wondering, In reference to Gaskets.

I already order the new Cap Cover Gaskets and am waiting for them, But do you guys know the symptoms of a bad seal on the cap gasket (Not the head gasket)? My symptoms right now are: no oil leaks on the sides, 80% power at cold, 45% power at running temperatures. cannot surpass 7k rpm even if I tried. Acceleration specific clacking. (goes faster with the engine.)

Almost feels like a whole cylinder isn't running. My boss thinks There isn't enough pressure from the old gasket seal and that exhaust is seaping out the sides (causing that clacking noise...kinda like a fart would.) I've read that compression and that seal mean nothing to cars. Is the engineering different on a bike? If that valve cover seal isn't good will it severely cripple the engine's power? or am I more likely looking at another problem?

Cause I've got a game plan and a ride for about 2 weeks. If I need the bike to be 100% down and take apart I think I can do it. and replace that Head-Neck gasket. I ask because I won't want to take that head gasket apart unless i'm at least 90% sure that it's the problem.

[rgx107]

Many of us reuse the valve cover gasket after valve adjustments. It's not critical for the engine function, the valve cover is just there to prevent oil from the valve drive train from splashing out. The worst that can happen is that you will have a thin oil film wetting the side of the engine.

Not sure what you mean with cap covers? If you mean the gaskets for the spark plug wells, it's the same for them. Not really critical on short term but you want them to be tight to prevent oil from leaking down to the spark plug.

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by rgx107

Many of us reuse the valve cover gasket after valve adjustments. It's not critical for the engine function, the valve cover is just there to prevent oil from the valve drive train from splashing out. The worst that can happen is that you will have a thin oil film wetting the side of the engine.

Not sure what you mean with cap covers? If you mean the gaskets for the spark plug wells, it's the same for them. Not really critical on short term but you want them to be tight to prevent oil from leaking down to the spark plug.

Argh that's a bummer! That means something else is gonna be the problem :P oh wells. I've got the head out of lockdown now and all the parts neatly organized on drawn paper towels That I drew the engine on lol.

Now I just need someone t hold the tension on the chain while I take the head off. started pulling up the cylinder chassis before I realized the head would separate. so I'm probably gonna take that off too and make sure it seals right.

Don't worry about the engine timing I drew a black marker on the chain and right under the teeth for both of the gear head things so they can go right on where they came off. Going to a halloween party tonight but pictures will all be up tomorrow.

[f0r54ken]

Ok Guys Good times, Engine is completely apart cylinders up. I didn't clean anything off till after I took the photos So the stuff you're seeing is what came right of the bound gaskets. It doesn't look like The gasket fractured at all to me. But I do clearly see coolant dots right after the gasket came off. Is there supposed to be a Thin seal between the gasket and engine parts? Maybe some kind of industrial RTV to fill the gaps? Maybe the finally gave way...

Also I found a good amount of sediment in here. Those Combustion heads that go up into the cylinders are Really Crunchy on top. I'm gonna clean them off really good with some Carb cleaner. Is that safe to scrub? I"m thinking I should be Doing a full service to this engine since I'm practically rebuilding it at this point.

Anyway here are some photos, Do you guys mind taking a look? Letting me know if You see anything bent or awkward? I see some like, burn marks on the head side. Could that be where The leak was? Anything Else should look at while down here?

Head Gasket 1


Head Gasket 2


Cylinder Top


Cylinder Bottom


Valve Section


Valve Section Sediment


Cylinder Gasket


Rocker Head


Gross Combustion Pressure Plates


Sediment From Pressure Plates.

[Brother Michigan]

Those "pressure plates" are your pistons and some carbon buildup is totally normal as is some buildup on the head around the valves. A cleaning is probably a good idea since you're already in there (soak them in some MMO, Seafoam or the like to break up the deposits). Use any top-tier gas in the future to prevent the buildup of significant deposits.

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

Those "pressure plates" are your pistons and some carbon buildup is totally normal as is some buildup on the head around the valves. A cleaning is probably a good idea since you're already in there (soak them in some MMO, Seafoam or the like to break up the deposits). Use any top-tier gas in the future to prevent the buildup of significant deposits.

Definetly will try get those spotless, but are the new gaskets I recieve going to be good enough to seal the engine? OR will the new gaskets need some kind of sealer in addition to the gaskets?

[Brother Michigan]

I wouldn't use anything on the gaskets, they should seal just fine on their own.

[Bob2010]

Question. Have you ever serviced any type of engine big or small before ? Just curious to what your mechanical background is like. That way it's a bit easier to understand what you you might be over looking

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

...will the new gaskets need some kind of sealer in addition to the gaskets?

Although no gasket dressing is required on the head gasket (and I respect the opinion of those who don't use it), I prefer to spray a coat of Permatex gasket sealer on both sides of the head gasket and let it tack up for a few minutes before I install it.

[Bob2010]

Copper spray

[spooph]

um... you've found your problem...

There aren't supposed to be 2 headgaskets... nor is there supposed to be any sort of RTV on them. The copper spray is OK, but no RTV. I bet those were leaking like a siv!

New gaskets with nothing on them (copper spray if you're nervous)
New head bolts
New piston rings
Clean it all up and assemble it.

Make sure to torque the head bolts in the appropriate pattern and to the appropriate torque specs.

When installing the rings, make sure to line them up properly as shown in the maintenance manual.

When re-installing the pistons into the cylinders be really careful not to injure the base gasket OR the piston rings. Buy the proper ring compressor and get them in there cleanly! Don't want to create compression issues from a leaking issue..

[f0r54ken]

@Bob2010: This is my first time ever getting this deep into an engine. I'm likely overlooking everything, but the disassembly video I watched was very good and informative.

DCJ/Bob: Yeah I'll grab some copper spray I like the idea of some kind of sealant.

Spooph: My apologies, I labeled it wrong I should have typed "headgasket Front/Back" But yeah, The things only got 8000 Miles, Even though it was neglected There are a lot of parts on here that still look great. After cleaning up the mating points of the engine they look really good. I'm checking everything for warping tonight. The bolts look good, Could clean them a little and reinstall with a high temp thread locker and even though the pistons look dirty (I'll clean em) The Rings aren't warped or damaged at all.

I'm pretty big on recycling parts that don't have apparent damage, more against replacing parts that aren't shaped to the wear of the engine if that makes sense.
For me assuming something is bad is just as wrong as assuming it's good. But some parts get bent when they go to seal strong. Are the head bolts an example of that? I think they call it "torque to yield"

But with that being said. I appreciate you telling me about compressing those rings I didn't know they were popped out beyond the cylinder. I probably would have shoved them on there and broken them. How can I check a clean landing after it is on? to check the rings aren't bent for Planting the cylinder section?

[spooph]

So the head bolts stretch when they are torqued, to act as a spring of sorts to keep everything together. The torque setting isn't just got hold things together, but to put those bolts under the right the tension and springyness... I would definitely replace those, If not the gaskets.

If the Pistons go in smoothly you don't need to worry about the rings. Spin the crank with a little bit of oil in the cylinders after you've put the Pistons back into the cylinders. If they move up and down without lifting the cylinder block off the cases, they will be happy.

[f0r54ken]

Originally Posted by spooph

So the head bolts stretch when they are torqued, to act as a spring of sorts to keep everything together. The torque setting isn't just got hold things together, but to put those bolts under the right the tension and springyness... I would definitely replace those, If not the gaskets.

If the Pistons go in smoothly you don't need to worry about the rings. Spin the crank with a little bit of oil in the cylinders after you've put the Pistons back into the cylinders. If they move up and down without lifting the cylinder block off the cases, they will be happy.

Very good, Thanks for the info about those cylinders and pistons.I'll definitely use that technique.

I'll let ya'll know how it goes.

[f0r54ken]

Alright I got the engine back together. I'm sorry guys I couldn't get photos or videos, Cause a lot of it required four hands. But I will put down What happened so future mechanics know what they are getting into. Not that I would consider myself a mechanic.

I started the removal process with this guys video. It was pretty damn good. So I figured I'd share it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBnGBIuhzc4

I kept tension on the chain, as this guy had said, You would have to open the clutch cover if you lost that chain or any parts down the chain well. And that's just another annoying thing to work on. The manual suggests sticking a terry towel into that well to be a safety net for falling parts. I would do the same if I were you future readers.

Taking the parts off was mostly a one man job, Short of the occasional roommate or wife to hold the chain while I removed the gaskets and head engine blocks. You'll also have to remove the exhaust system. Taking it off is easy enough.

I could tell someone has gone this far before because the Head gasket was sprayed with copper then cylinder gasket was not. My best guess is some shady mechanic went down and sprayed a new layer on the compromised gasket. Then stuck it back in...Prick.

Take pictures to guarantee you get those supporting rods back where they belong. Everything down to the cylinder was off, Pistons exposed. I was able to use carb cleaner, A Sponge, and a powerdrill with a mesh brush attachment to carefully clean off all of the mating points on the cylinder side and Head side. Trying to make them shiny. Then I used a Feeler set and a flat roll of tape to press down and check for warping, there was none.
I also Cleaned up the piston tops quite a bit. Make sure you put a paper towel around the pistons, that carbon and dust will make your oil ugly.

All the gaskets were new here comes the hard part. Keeping tension on the chain while putting parts on required a second person. You can alleviate the need for that second person if you remove the timing chain but you'll have to put it back together :X I sprayed the cylinder gasket, both sides, with copper gasket sealant Don't be a dummy, Don't spray the gasket hovering over the open engine. As I put the cylinder block down I had to use my fingers and squeezing to compress each ring into the piston while sliding it into the cylinder. I repeated this process on each ring as it came down; I think there were 6 rings or maybe 4.

Once the cylinder came down it was good. I used a rubber mallet to tap t into place. I didn't regret the copper because it allowed me to see the edges of the gasket after sealing the block, It was reassuring to know the gasket could be seen all around. Next was the head gasket. I spray both sides of this as well and stuck it down onto the cylinder top. Once I was comfortable with that seating I had my second guy hold the chain and feed it though the head bottom; Still keeping tension. This is where It got very annoying. That damn carb!

The rubber connectors for the carb couldn't get enough clearance so we had to use zip ties to pin the carb back to the frame. and fen-angle the head onto the cylinder top. It helps to have a lot of zipties so you can pin the chain back to the frame at the top. Then your guest can help you out. After getting it seated well enough I used the rubber mallet to tap the head onto the cylinder top, It sealed nicely. At this point I'd say to put a couple of your head bolts in but down torque them down. It's just to hold it while you get your carb back together.

We took the carb off the zipties. This part was extremely hard. It's a very limited space to work in and requires quite a bit of force. If your guest understands how carbs work they should be able to help you out with pushing it up and in. Might need a couple flat head screw drivers to bend the rubber over the carb. Once you get it on it will give a satisfying pop for both sides. Make sure the back of the carb aligns with the air filter openings.

Once I got these in My guest went away. I used thread locker and placed all of the same bolts in their same holes. I hand tightened the bolts in a star pattern. Using a torque wrench at around 18.0 pounds per foot in the same star pattern After those were pinned I moved onto the rockers. They needed adjustment. You'll need the terry towel in the chain well to make sure nothing falls into to If something does you'll likely have to start ALL OVER! I dropped all of the rockers back to their places 1 - 8 and put those timing sprocket rods back on top.

It turns out I needed to fix the timing anyway. I don't know how the previous guy made it work but the marks I put on it before dis-assembly did not match the Timing in the manual. So I went for broke and Followed format in the manual. We'll see when the rtv dries if it works...

When you put the brackets back on the rods keep in mind that those rockers move around. One is likely to slip out of place. Don't let your engine get damaged because it was to annoying to check! I'm glad I checked. After pinning down the rods and timing chain I got the chain tensioner back on. This part was tricky as hell. There's a washer in there that has to go in right. If it doesn't you can't get the tensioner down. if you got it in right you can push the whole tensioner down to the engine.

Back to the rockers. You won't need a special tool to adjust the valves at this point. but I would open the engine port on the stator to spin the engine with a ratchet a few times. Make sure nothing pops and cracks. I had a popping. At first I thought it was a part of the gasket hitting the exhaust valve, but it turns out the final rocker wasn't placed correctly and was extremely tight. To adjust those rockers I used a 2 inch 1/4 ratchet extender This worked very well for reaching the Nuts to adjust clearance I followed the manual's clearance specs. I had to roll the engine as I was going to point the rolling points upward.

For the timing check out this guys video he's actually pretty darn descriptive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-noceisYm4

And finally putting on the exhaust was extremely frustrating. I learned with this bike that your don't take a seal off unless you REALLY have too I used some jack stands sideways to slide the ehxaust pipes back and forth and lifted the front to meet with the exit holesDON'T FORGET TO PUT THE HOLDING PLATES ON THE PIPES OTHERWISE YOU"LL HAVE TO START OVER and getting those Metal Orings in at the same time while pushing a 50 pound exhaust upward before they could fall out while leaning sideways with minimal light was easily the worst part of my weekend.

I'm sure everyone knows where to go from here. Anyone reading this likely already took the valve cap off.

I think the rtv for the cooling system has cured by now. You guys don't have to worry about reading all this this is mainly just a testimony of how annoying it could be for guys who haven't done it. I'm gonna get it filled and try to fire it up soon. I'm gonna record it. Whether it explodes or not...we'll see.

Thanks guys!

[f0r54ken]

Hey does anyone know A good seating time for the new gaskets? Do I need to take it easy for the first hundred miles? Or is that even a rule?

Update: Dammit dammit dammit! So Good news Is I have not leaks anywhere from the engine. But the compression issues I got before taking it apart are still there :/ It almost feels like It's bogging. I made a video and got the audio the best I could. it almost sounds like the combustion isn't escaping. Like the engine as farting through a pillow, Or a marshmallow factory. Compression went from 25% - 75% at random but mostly was 75%
. I don't think The engine will go above 7k rpm. I didn't really want to give it the chance.

Is there anything else I should be checking? maybe the carb isn't feeding gas the way it should. Or maybe the exhaust got clogged up somehow? I know that cylinder is good, I turned the engine several times to check for pops and missing sequence. Even reset the whole timing to manual specificaions. Valves adjusted. Sparks are shocking.

Man. When I think not much else is gonna go wrong.....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDzy6bYCotw

[spooph]

I gotta think on this one for a while. Kinda hard to keep going remotely like this...

Also, the gaskets material should have the cure time on the tube... I'm sure they're all different.

[f0r54ken]

Oh My bad I meant, Wear in time. With being a new piece and all.

Alright so Some more information is, the bike performs worse hot of course.

When hot the maximum rpm it can go is 5k, The bike almost sounds congested.
Once hot enough, near halfway on the meter, The rpm's will start to slowly cut as if I'm letting off the throttle. this is particularly noticeable where the road i'm riding is more than a mile long without a stop. if I do stop for a minute or so and let the rpm rest at 1.8k It'll stop bogging but can't surpass 5k still.

Occasionally while riding the oil light is coming on too. the oil is Fresh and full as of this morning. This issue was happening before I took it apart.

There are not knocking sounds or wretching or tapping. But the best way I can describe it is the bike sounds like its holding back vomit while riding. Like someone stuck a carrot in my exhaust. some exhaust DOES come out still.

As part of troubleshooting if I take off the exhaust system and run the bike will it have a catastrophic failure? does it need pressure from the muffler?

[spooph]

gaskets require no "break-in". They're good to go from the beginning. Piston rings - if you replaced those, should be broken in and that's another can of worms - I'd suggest searching the forum as there are many different opinions, but most of the people who have rebuild/futzed with their engines like the motoman technique: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Taking the exhaust off and running the bike won't hurt anything for a short period of time. If it's cold outside, the valves can get hurt by being exposed to that cold air, it's just gonna be hella loud. I once ran my engine without an exhaust and without the valve cover on, it sounded like a 1920's Douglas, it was awesome! (Also had to deflect the oil from the cam chain back into the head).

Honestly, I'm at a loss here. All I can think of is that you've missed something, and that's not meant to fault you. If the carbs, valves, head and engine has been gone through as you have, it should be working much better than it is.

The oil issue worries me - if there aren't any leaks anywhere, then maybe it's had an oil delivery issue all along, and what you might be experiencing is a bearing going somewhere - either a cam bearing that's binding up and causing the engine to partially seize and break free, or a crankshaft bearing doing the same thing?!

Dare I contradict myself and recommend you either get rid of this bike and get another, or take it to a professional?

How does the engine perform without a load? IE - just sitting still in neutral. Could it be drive-line bind?

If I were in your situation I would tear this engine all the way down, split the cases, and measure everything with micrometers, and trace all oil passages.

I would also individually bench test the water pump, oil pump.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by f0r54ken

When hot the maximum rpm it can go is 5k, The bike almost sounds congested.
Once hot enough, near halfway on the meter, The rpm's will start to slowly cut as if I'm letting off the throttle. this is particularly noticeable where the road i'm riding is more than a mile long without a stop. if I do stop for a minute or so and let the rpm rest at 1.8k It'll stop bogging but can't surpass 5k still.

Occasionally while riding the oil light is coming on too. the oil is Fresh and full as of this morning. This issue was happening before I took it apart.

Sounds like restricted intake, restricted fuel flow (petcock, jets), non-functioning slides in the carb, or incorrect cam timing, to me.

Did you clean the screen when changing the oil? http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Checking_the_oil_screen A partially blocked screen can cause oil flow and pressure problems.

[f0r54ken]

Taking the exhaust off and running the bike won't hurt anything for a short period of time. If it's cold outside, the valves can get hurt by being exposed to that cold air, it's just gonna be hella loud. I once ran my engine without an exhaust and without the valve cover on, it sounded like a 1920's Douglas, it was awesome! (Also had to deflect the oil from the cam chain back into the head).

Holy crap that must've been Quite the experience. Sounds scary haha. That's the kind of setup you press the ignition with your 18inch ratchet extender.

Honestly, I'm at a loss here. All I can think of is that you've missed something, and that's not meant to fault you. If the carbs, valves, head and engine has been gone through as you have, it should be working much better than it is.

I agree. It was my first engine rebuilt so I probably did screw something up :/ I'm not offended even the best mechanics have to accept this as a possibility.

The oil issue worries me - if there aren't any leaks anywhere, then maybe it's had an oil delivery issue all along, and what you might be experiencing is a bearing going somewhere - either a cam bearing that's binding up and causing the engine to partially seize and break free, or a crankshaft bearing doing the same thing?!

Could be. I know the oil light comes on when the engine is off no matter what. whether first starting or turning off the engine. It honestly could have been coming on like, Reverse stator status. Where the engine Was on it's last breath and the combustion dropped during a gear shift. causing the bike to think the engine turned off and then turned on the light for a second before revving it back too life. I think they call it "edging?" #bikeporn. lol

Dare I contradict myself and recommend you either get rid of this bike and get another, or take it to a professional?

Honestly you're right. Even if I find the problem and fix it something else will go wrong. This bike has a propensity for failure and it's really depressing.

How does the engine perform without a load? IE - just sitting still in neutral. Could it be drive-line bind?

Neutral standing cold needs a choke but anything under 4000rpm sounds ok without load. but honestly it sounds like the combustion isn't getting out. the bike gets hot double time. The only thing keeping it cool is the cold snap out here in vegas

If I were in your situation I would tear this engine all the way down, split the cases, and measure everything with micrometers, and trace all oil passages.

I should probably hire a meth head for this part

I would also individually bench test the water pump, oil pump

Hmm, Water pump is good. But I didn't know there was an oil pump till...well just now. I always thought the rolling and the chain launched oil up.

So here's what I'm gonna do. All of the above. Fortunately i'm well versed in music production and have a high quality microphone. So I'm going to attach the rig to my laptop and adjust the input levels to get a really good clean recording of how it sounds. Maybe run a car next to the recording too as a reference to the audio quality.

After than I'm going to open up the top and record with a high quality camera the timing. where the rollers sit where the 2|T is and roll the engine with a ratchet slowly with the high quality microphone so the compressions are audible. If I remember I was only running into one tight spot in the whole rotation.

Then I'm going to put it back together and roll it to a onsite mechanic for a diagnostic. Have them tell me what they think the problem is. Bring it back home. Take the entire thing apart. THE ENTIRE ENGINE. lol and look closely for all the damages. rips, tear, cracks.

Thankfully my roomate helped me out and is letting me borrow his commuter car. So I can really look into this. Some of this is wanting a working motorcycle. But most of it is wanted to know how to fix it. I Want to have this skill permanently attached to help others. The bike has burned me the wrong way and now I'm on a vandetta. lol