Okay, now they've got my attention... Brammo

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

It's more than 100% more expensive than just a handful of years ago, and takes up a greater percentage of household income than ever, especially when it was over $4. I remember when T. Boone Pickens said oil would hit $100 a barrel and everyone said he was a loon spewing crazy talk.

Every mile I ride instead of drive I'm thumbing my nose at a bunch of religious zealots in the middle east, and that brings a real smile to my face.

Regarding oil price, how much is it in US atm, 3$/g? So thats like 0,8$/l or 0,6 eur/l? Price in Germany is abt 1.45 eur/l. They do have higher prices because some % of that money is given for road repair. Still thats at least double of what you pay.
But that is why in europe small city cars which have small engines and mpg same as the ninjette exist. You could buy a VW Lupo 3L which made over 70mpg almost 10 years ago. There was a topgear UK episode in which Clarkson made 50mpg with V8 audi.

Religious zealots? :P Now thats really paranoid isnt it? There are religious zealots in every religion and i doubt they will stop throwing bombs at innocent people because they have electric engines instead of combustion engines. Thats why they are religious and not anti-petrol zealots
Nevermind the joke, but seriously, if you want to do something you are going to do it one way or another. If you dont want the gasoline someone else is going to buy it, and they will still get the money they need.
That is assuming that terrorist organizations are being funded by mid east governments, which i doubt. I was unfortunate enough to spend this summer in Abu Dhabi, and you would be surpirsed at how much of the stuff there is actually american! Those guys dont want you dead.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Regarding oil price, how much is it in US atm, 3$/g? So thats like 0,8$/l or 0,6 eur/l? Price in Germany is abt 1.45 eur/l. They do have higher prices because some % of that money is given for road repair. Still thats at least double of what you pay.
But that is why in europe small city cars which have small engines and mpg same as the ninjette exist. You could buy a VW Lupo 3L which made over 70mpg almost 10 years ago. There was a topgear UK episode in which Clarkson made 50mpg with V8 audi.

Europe has one thing we don't: A well-developed public transportation network linking relatively dense population centers. The majority of European citizens are able to get around without owning a vehicle, or driving one comparatively few miles per year. How many miles does the average European citizen drive a year? No idea, can't find that info with a quick google. On the other hand, according to USDOT Federal Highway Administration the age group 20-54 drives just under 15,200 miles a year, here in the US. That's the core working/commuting age group. I suspect that the comparative number in Europe would be a fraction of that, a fairly small fraction.

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Religious zealots? :P Now thats really paranoid isnt it? There are religious zealots in every religion and i doubt they will stop throwing bombs at innocent people because they have electric engines instead of combustion engines. Thats why they are religious and not anti-petrol zealots
Nevermind the joke, but seriously, if you want to do something you are going to do it one way or another. If you dont want the gasoline someone else is going to buy it, and they will still get the money they need.
That is assuming that terrorist organizations are being funded by mid east governments, which i doubt. I was unfortunate enough to spend this summer in Abu Dhabi, and you would be surpirsed at how much of the stuff there is actually american! Those guys dont want you dead.

From wiki: Paranoia is a thought process heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and/or delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. Historically, this characterization was used to describe any delusional state.

Just thought I'd post the actual meaning.

WRT to what I wrote, much of the money floating around in the middle east, and 100% of our interests and presence there, is due to oil. Nothing else but that. If nobody bought oil from there, they'd still be a backwater with nomads and camels. Though great culture and science came from that region in the past (the mathematical concept of zero was invented there, for instance) once the fundamental/conservative Islamics became dominant and the governments stopped being secular the area went to hell. But with us buying oil from there trillions of dollars have flowed into the region, and like with any river of money the fundamentalists/conservatives have tapped into it to further their own goals, using whatever methods (including terrorism) they can.

The hundreds of thousands of dollars Osama bin Ladin spent to run the operation that brought down the World Trade Center came from his family's construction business, which was in turn fueled by the money flowing into the middle east for the most part from oil sales to the US. To some extent, the money I and everyone else here spent on gasoline up to September 11, 2001 paid for that act of terrorism.

No delusion, no fantasy, no sense of persecution false or otherwise. Just plain old facts easy enough for anyone to independently verify, if they choose to.

I can tell something to someone, but I surely can't understand it for them.

But I digress...

This thread is about the Brammo, a really cool bike that I'd buy if I could afford to. Let's keep it about that.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

The hundreds of thousands of dollars Osama bin Ladin spent to run the operation that brought down the World Trade Center came from his family's construction business, which was in turn fueled by the money flowing into the middle east for the most part from oil sales to the US. To some extent, the money I and everyone else here spent on gasoline up to September 11, 2001 paid for that act of terrorism.

No delusion, no fantasy, no sense of persecution false or otherwise. Just plain old facts easy enough for anyone to independently verify, if they choose to.

Actually, his family disowned him decades earlier and Al Qaeda had to rely on their typical underground funding sources, but we know what you mean (those funding sources were likely ultimately funded by oil).

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Actually, his family disowned him decades earlier and Al Qaeda had to rely on their typical underground funding sources, but we know what you mean (those funding sources were likely ultimately funded by oil).

Bin Laden inherited some amount between 50 million and 300 million from his father. The amount is in dispute, but either amount is surely more than the few hundred thousand the 9/11 operation cost. Per Forbes Magazine, Bin Laden's personal fortune derives from an inheritance from his father, a construction billionaire. Despite his wealth, the Saudi government in 1994 revoked bin Laden's citizenship, in part due to the urging of the U.S., for agitating against state policy, especially the kingdom's military alliance with America during the Persian Gulf War, says Amin Tarzi, a Middle East researcher at the Monterey Institute of International Studies, who is of Afghan origin.
http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914ladenmoney.html

Disowned or not, he was, and may still be, quite wealthy, and that wealth came nearly directly from oil.

[Alex]

If folks believe that trying to use a little less gas on their morning commute is going to do a whit to combat global terrorism, more power to them. Any incentive to do a good deed, no matter how unlikely or unsubstantiated, is reason enough to do it as long as someone believes it. And everything else being equal, conservation of just about anything is a greater good than lack of conservation.

Of course a couple key points should at least be digested if someone wants to know how much of an effect their actions are likely to have:

- it should be understood that OPEC oil is further down the list of US imports than anyone believes
- a good portion of the oil imports have nothing to do with transportation
- even if there was a more direct link to US transportation usage and mideast imports, and we somehow stopped purchasing a single barrel as of tomorrow, that region can sell all they want all day long to growing economies like India and China. Most would agree the US security situation long-term bodes better for us having a better trade and diplomatic relationship with that portion of the world than future superpower rivals would aspire to. In those terms, terrorism is a nit.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Alex

If folks believe that trying to use a little less gas on their morning commute is going to do a whit to combat global terrorism, more power to them. Any incentive to do a good deed, no matter how unlikely or unsubstantiated, is reason enough to do it as long as someone believes it. And everything else being equal, conservation of just about anything is a greater good than lack of conservation.

Glad to see how highly you think of this...

No matter, principles are what counts...

[Bleak21]

Oh my god, where did the thread go? I read the first post and now the last few.

Anyway I'm definitely interested in these however after reading the specs, the tech is not proprietary manufacturers out there already so I'll wait just a little bit to see better design/cheaper price.

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by RaceBikeRentals

Do you have any idea what this bike will be worth in 30 years? $10K will seem like an amazing bargain

Nothing....it will be scrap because the batteries, and likely the motor will be trash.

The batteries are only good for so many charging cycles, and at the usage that thing is likely to see....im guessing 5 years tops before you are doing a complete overhaul at half the price of the bike.

Unfortunatly, the motors, whether coreless or brushless, they too wear out after a couple of years too.

Just not worth it at all. A ninja 250R is still a much better value. Longer distances, you can "recharge" it in seconds at a gas pump, and it will last much longer.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Bleak21

Oh my god, where did the thread go? I read the first post and now the last few.

Anyway I'm definitely interested in these however after reading the specs, the tech is not proprietary manufacturers out there already so I'll wait just a little bit to see better design/cheaper price.

Yeah, there's always that small element that chimes in on every EV thread about how terrible/bad/waste/etc EVs are. They'll produce mathematical formulas to prove why it's a stupid idea to buy an EV (nevermind that nobody uses these formulas to decide what else to buy, two wheels or four), then go on to basically use whatever tactics they can to convince others that you should never buy an EV anything, especially not this one (whatever the current one under discussion is). Why? No idea. They've made it abundantly clear that an EV of any sort will never be for them, that I can understand. Either you want one or you don't, but as to the motive behind the effort to get others to not buy one I haven't got a clue. It's almost religious in nature. The Church of the Anti-EV.

In any case, the Brammo is the first production EV bike I've seen that I'd buy if I had the money. Plenty of people have no problem making $15K purchases (look at all the new cars, trucks, and large bikes on the road today) so it's not strictly a money issue. And, for many riders the Brammo would make a perfect daily commutor; I know it would for me.

Here's hoping that Brammo is able to overcome the obstacles of technology and personality to succeed. It's only through volume sales that prices will go down in a new market, so the more that buy now the quicker the technology will become more affordable for me.

[Alex]

If you're referring to me Frugal, you're way off base (I'm not sure if I'm in that group, but just in case). I tend to find EV cheerleaders and EV bashers equally off-base on their stated reasons for buying or not buying, and I fully agree with your point that people will buy what they want for whatever reasons they want. That's the way it is, it's the way it should be, and there's absolutely no problem with that.

Anyone else ascribing why someone else should be considering them, or even worse, why someone needs to be considering them if they only had more information, is where the train goes off the rails for me.

I enjoyed this recent article in our news section here about a tremendously capable electric racebike, with plans to compete not only with similarly-powered machines, but head-to-head with conventional literbikes, at least at a club racing level. Looks like a fun project! For what it's worth, I also thoroughly enjoyed watching the e-bike race held at Laguna during the MotoGP weekend this past summer, with the MotoCzysz bike passing its much faster competitor in the final straight to take the win by only a few lengths. (link)

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Alex

If you're referring to me Frugal, you're way off base (I'm not sure if I'm in that group, but just in case).

Not at all...

[ninja3575]

Originally Posted by CZroe

. As to whether this is actually what is happening or not is a subject climate scientists will be debating for years to come, but CO2 has been shown to be driven by temperature in the past and not the other way around. If it truly drove atmospheric temperatures as some claim, we never would have escaped the viscous cycle to be at our current concentrations.

Money taints results no matter the source, so one must consider this even when reading official IPCC scientific reports.

Well you've laid out some good food for thought... gonna have to do some more reading on the subject and fill out my understanding a wee bit more... after i tip back a brew or two of course..

[Anteraan]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

I would love to see Tesla make a motorcycle.

+1 - I have thought this myself many times.

Also, I really, really want a Model S...eventually.

[tapdiggy]

I like to have the option of working on my bike's powerplant easily. Batteries, electronic controllers, and electric motors prevent that.

Interesting look to the machine, but a more conventional styling would be better. I get that is a new paradigm in motorcycling, but a form change to reflect the new direction is unnecessary. Edgy doesn't equate to unique or better.

The next bit is a little rant-ish, I say this up front: Who is gonna step up and figure out an E-bike for the masses; something close to what Honda did with the Cub? Instead of designing boutique battery racers for well-funded track junkies, someone build a realistic, everyman sort of buzz-along. If Brammo and Motoczsyzch (was I even close on the spelling?) want to tap the guys who would buy a Desmosedici, I think I'll keep an eye on Zero and their promising dual purpose whizzer.

[billmi]

I’m interested to see after reading more of this thread, that what is usually cited as the number one reason people will shun electric vehicles – limited range – doesn’t seem to be prevalent in the discussion.

Originally Posted by ninja3575

So switching to electric vehicles reduces carbon emissions via fossil fuel burn off... but it is offset by an increase in consumer consumption of electricity... electricity that is produced by burning Coal ... and we have an incredible amount of coal here in the US...

According to a Swiss study published in Environmental Science and Technology, when looking at the total lifetime environmental impact of a VW Golf sized Lithium Ion electric vehicle compared to a comparable gasoline powered car, the gas car would have to get 70 miles per gallon fuel economy to be as clean as the electric. That is taking into account the mining, manufacture and shipping of the materials as well as the pollution generated by the fuels used, and the disposal and or recycling of the vehicle and its parts at the end of its useful life. They made their calculations using power from the European grid which is 30 percent coal vs 56 percent in the US. The authors of the study concluded that as our energy grid gets “greener” the environmental impact of EVs decreases, while it remains the same with gas powered vehicles. What that study didn't consider though was motorcycles, which according to the California Air Resources Board produce an average 10 times more air pollution per mile driven than cars. I suspect that would more than balance out our dirtier US grid.

Originally Posted by tapdiggy

I like to have the option of working on my bike's powerplant easily. Batteries, electronic controllers, and electric motors prevent that.

If that's on the basis of you're already familiar with gassers, and would need to learn about electrics, I totally see it. If it's on the basis of how accessible possible it is to do the work, I don't see it - electrics are far less complex, there's far less to adjust, wear or fail so less needs to be done, and what does need to be done is easier to do.

I'd be up for changing out the bearings on an electric motor over changing the timing chain or camshaft bearings on a gas engine any day of the week - it's faster and easier to do.

Gas motorcycles are just a lot more complicated than electrics:

Typical Electric                            Typical Gas
*Batteries (maintenance Free)              *Battery (flooded lead-acid)
*Electric Motor                            *Electric Motor (starter)
*12v Headlight/Signals                     *12v Headlight/Signals
*High voltage motor controller             *High voltage ignition controller
*Chain drive                               *Chain Drive
*Battery Charger / Monitor                 *Carburetor or FI and vacuum circuits
*Brakes                                    *Brakes
*Tires/Wheels/Bearings                     *Tires/Wheels/Bearings
                                           *Electronic circuits for FI if FI equipped
                                           *Fuel Tank, filters and petcocks
                                           *Engine Coolant circulating pump
                                           *Thermostat control
                                           *Radiator and electric fan system
                                           *Oil pump, filtration and sump
                                           *Oil level/pressure sensing circuits
                                           *Fuel/exhaust valves in engine
                                           *Timing chains to operate valves
                                           *Multi-speed transmission gearing
                                           *Clutch mechanism

Originally Posted by bdavidson

The batteries are only good for so many charging cycles, and at the usage that thing is likely to see....im guessing 5 years tops before you are doing a complete overhaul at half the price of the bike.

That's a hidden cost that is widely ignored in the promotion of both EVs and hybrids. Batteries aren't cheap, and they do have a limited life. When throwing around "cost per mile" that is usually ignored.

For prismatic LiFePO4 cells, you're talking about 3,000 to 5,000 cycles. So on a bike with 40 mile range, they're going to be seeing end of life around 160,000 miles.

To be fair in comparison, internal combustion motorcycles rarely are used to over 100,000 miles without being considered worn out, and people usually don't consider the cost of engine replacement in their cost per mile either.

The Ninja 250 engine lifespan is typically 50K to 60K miles. I would expect the cost of 3 new engines is more than a new pack of batteries for a similar sized electric. Used engines would of course be cheaper, but so would used batteries - though they are far less common yet.

Unfortunatly, the motors, whether coreless or brushless, they too wear out after a couple of years too.

Brushes on brushed motors wear and are replaceable just like rebuilding starter motors on gas bikes and your only other wear point is the bearings - repairable points just like on an ICE bike. The electric forklift here at work has been running fine on the same motor for more than 20 years without rebuilding. In comparison, internal combustion engines are FAR more prone to wear because they are so much more mechanically complex and have so many parts rubbing against each other to wear out.

None of the above are reasons that people need to give up their gassers and jump on electrics, I'm just sharing what I believe is a balanced perspective.

My motivation for going electric was purely that it looked like a fun challenge and project to undertake. I'm looking forward to riding a bike that is unique, and for sure converting a motorcycle to electric power is less expensive and difficult (at least from my point of view) than a car, and more rewarding, since I prefer riding over driving. My choice of a Ninja 250 for the conversion hinged finding one at a bargain price, and because it's been in production so long, there's both a market for the gas related parts I've stripped off to help fund the conversion and easy availability of any used parts I might need.

[rockNroll]

When EV's become more appealing to car/bike enthusiasts, the money will increase for the manufacturers, the technology will will rise at a faster rate and the costs to the end user will go down. Coz hey, if Alex gets that titanium housed capacitor for added boost on accel... imna have to get the one in carbon fiber that has even more juice storage soz I can wup up on him down at the local strip while looking even more badazz