Too rich or too lean

rich3389 · April 27th, 2012, 03:01 AM

On my 96 Ninja the engine hesitates/surges and doesnt even have enough power to keep 45+ mph once warmed up. Engine seems to run great until warmed up but after a few minutes and more than 50% throttle this problems occurs. Idles great cold and hot.
Carbs were just cleaned/rebuild. Do I need to shim the needle or is it already running to rich?

davenay67 · April 27th, 2012, 07:08 AM

When warmed up, does it run better with the choke 'on or 'off'..??

Pull the plugs and inspect the electreode area; black is rich, white is lean, you want a nice tan colour.

Asspire · April 27th, 2012, 07:25 AM

http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Lean_or_Rich

Sounds like a rich problem. Pull the air filter and see if it gets better.

rich3389 · April 27th, 2012, 07:59 AM

Under load it runs better with the choke when warmed. But it idles better with no choke warmed.
Posted via Mobile Device

davenay67 · April 27th, 2012, 08:01 AM

Personally, I would suspect the main jets in the carbs.

n4mwd · April 27th, 2012, 01:44 PM

I agree with most everybody else on this. Sounds like its too rich.

Make sure your main needles are fitting the seats properly and that the seats are in right side up. The needle seats are just under the main jet. I'm not sure if they will even go in upside down, but its something to check. Otherwise, its possible that they are just worn out.

You can try cranking your mixture screws all the way in and see if that has an effect, but if they do, its likely to only affect the idle.

n4mwd · April 27th, 2012, 01:47 PM

BTW, when you rebuilt the carb, did you remove the diaphragms and protect them from solvents, gas and oil? Solvents destroy them. I'm not sure if a broken one will produce your symptoms or not, but its not going to run right if they are damaged.

choneofakind · April 27th, 2012, 04:53 PM

pause for a moment before we continue assuming something is wrong:

What's your intake setup?
What's your exhaust setup?
What is your jetting looking like? (main jet size, needle height, pilot jet size etc)
Are you sure you got everything back together correctly after your cleaning/rebuild?

rich3389 · April 27th, 2012, 05:31 PM

OK the bike has a slip on exhaust(F1 brand?) and a KN filter...I took the carbs apart and found that one of the diaphragms was torn a bit..
I am working on a fix now for that and I am going to shim the jets with 2 washers.

choneofakind · April 27th, 2012, 05:33 PM

K&N airbox filter? or K&N pod filter that replaces the airbox?

rich3389 · April 27th, 2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choneofakind

K&N airbox filter? or K&N pod filter that replaces the airbox?

Its a drop in filter, uses the factory airbox.

n4mwd · April 27th, 2012, 06:04 PM

The intake, carbs, headers and exhaust are so precisely tuned on a Ninja that any tinkering with the design can mess things up. If you change the mufflers to a single muffler, or airbox to pods, then that generally means rejetting the carbs. If someone changed any of that stuff, and didn't rejet the carbs, it might cause the bike's performance to suffer in a manner similar to what you described.

So if you have a stock bike, it should have two mufflers, an airbox and an oil sponge air filter. Based on what you have said so far, it sounds like this is the case.

n4mwd · April 27th, 2012, 06:33 PM

Oops, looks like I missed a few posts there.

Officially, the only cure for a torn diaphragm is to buy a new one ($100 ea). But I'm wondering if a little rubber cement will be good enough.

choneofakind · April 27th, 2012, 09:15 PM

There's a DIY around here by theduck about using a tire patch kit to fix them. Search around a little bit. It's worth a $5 patch kit to fix a $112 part.

ducky12555 · April 28th, 2012, 03:19 AM

I think I just saw a pair on ebay. Make sure you measure like this website says though

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...id=10006158529

n4mwd · April 28th, 2012, 05:31 AM

Do they come apart from the plastic thing? I didn't think they would without a fight.

Another option to consider is silicone RTV. I have no idea if that will work, but if the rubber cement or patches don't work, then maybe that.

I'm wondering what other bikes use this same diaphragm. Maybe other bikes sell the same thing cheaper.

rich3389 · April 28th, 2012, 07:26 AM

OK I got it running almost perfectly now, I guess the ripped diaphragm was the problem.
The bike only has a slight hesitation/stutter at cruising speeds between 7-8k rpms.

n4mwd · April 28th, 2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich3389

OK I got it running almost perfectly now, I guess the ripped diaphragm was the problem.
The bike only has a slight hesitation/stutter at cruising speeds between 7-8k rpms.

What was the diaphragm repair method that worked for you?

rich3389 · April 28th, 2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

What was the diaphragm repair method that worked for you?

I used rubber cement from a tire repair kit.

JLinde1339 · May 1st, 2012, 10:32 AM

I've been having the exact same problem. Slightly torn diaphragm at the edge. Bike runs great until a half hour into the ride, then sputters and stalls. K&N filter, airbox delete, stock exhaust, 107.5 main, 6 shims. If that tire patch kit does the trick, you'll have made me a very happy man. Lol

April 27th, 2012, 03:01 AM	#1
rich3389 ninjette.org newbie Name: Rich Location: FL Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 9	Too rich or too lean On my 96 Ninja the engine hesitates/surges and doesnt even have enough power to keep 45+ mph once warmed up. Engine seems to run great until warmed up but after a few minutes and more than 50% throttle this problems occurs. Idles great cold and hot. Carbs were just cleaned/rebuild. Do I need to shim the needle or is it already running to rich?

April 27th, 2012, 01:44 PM	#6
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	I agree with most everybody else on this. Sounds like its too rich. Make sure your main needles are fitting the seats properly and that the seats are in right side up. The needle seats are just under the main jet. I'm not sure if they will even go in upside down, but its something to check. Otherwise, its possible that they are just worn out. You can try cranking your mixture screws all the way in and see if that has an effect, but if they do, its likely to only affect the idle. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 27th, 2012, 01:47 PM	#7
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	BTW, when you rebuilt the carb, did you remove the diaphragms and protect them from solvents, gas and oil? Solvents destroy them. I'm not sure if a broken one will produce your symptoms or not, but its not going to run right if they are damaged. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 27th, 2012, 06:04 PM	#12
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	The intake, carbs, headers and exhaust are so precisely tuned on a Ninja that any tinkering with the design can mess things up. If you change the mufflers to a single muffler, or airbox to pods, then that generally means rejetting the carbs. If someone changed any of that stuff, and didn't rejet the carbs, it might cause the bike's performance to suffer in a manner similar to what you described. So if you have a stock bike, it should have two mufflers, an airbox and an oil sponge air filter. Based on what you have said so far, it sounds like this is the case. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 27th, 2012, 06:33 PM	#13
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	Oops, looks like I missed a few posts there. Officially, the only cure for a torn diaphragm is to buy a new one ($100 ea). But I'm wondering if a little rubber cement will be good enough. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 27th, 2012, 07:08 AM	#2
davenay67 ninjette.org member Name: Dave Location: Lisle Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2003 Goldwing GL1800, 2002 Ninja 250, 2001 VFR800, 1999 Ducati 996 Posts: 107	When warmed up, does it run better with the choke 'on or 'off'..?? Pull the plugs and inspect the electreode area; black is rich, white is lean, you want a nice tan colour.

April 27th, 2012, 07:25 AM	#3
Asspire Fix It Till Ya Break It Name: Asspyre Location: T.Dot Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 08 250RRrrrr Posts: 623	http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Lean_or_Rich Sounds like a rich problem. Pull the air filter and see if it gets better.

April 27th, 2012, 07:59 AM	#4
rich3389 ninjette.org newbie Name: Rich Location: FL Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 9	Under load it runs better with the choke when warmed. But it idles better with no choke warmed. Posted via Mobile Device

April 27th, 2012, 08:01 AM	#5
davenay67 ninjette.org member Name: Dave Location: Lisle Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2003 Goldwing GL1800, 2002 Ninja 250, 2001 VFR800, 1999 Ducati 996 Posts: 107	Personally, I would suspect the main jets in the carbs.

April 27th, 2012, 04:53 PM	#8
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	pause for a moment before we continue assuming something is wrong: What's your intake setup? What's your exhaust setup? What is your jetting looking like? (main jet size, needle height, pilot jet size etc) Are you sure you got everything back together correctly after your cleaning/rebuild?

April 27th, 2012, 05:31 PM	#9
rich3389 ninjette.org newbie Name: Rich Location: FL Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 9	OK the bike has a slip on exhaust(F1 brand?) and a KN filter...I took the carbs apart and found that one of the diaphragms was torn a bit.. I am working on a fix now for that and I am going to shim the jets with 2 washers.

April 27th, 2012, 05:33 PM	#10
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	K&N airbox filter? or K&N pod filter that replaces the airbox?

April 27th, 2012, 09:15 PM	#14
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	There's a DIY around here by theduck about using a tire patch kit to fix them. Search around a little bit. It's worth a $5 patch kit to fix a $112 part.

April 28th, 2012, 03:19 AM	#15
ducky12555 ninjette.org member Name: Brandon Location: Oregon Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2001 ninja 250 (24,000) miles Posts: 12	I think I just saw a pair on ebay. Make sure you measure like this website says though http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...id=10006158529

April 28th, 2012, 05:31 AM	#16
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	Do they come apart from the plastic thing? I didn't think they would without a fight. Another option to consider is silicone RTV. I have no idea if that will work, but if the rubber cement or patches don't work, then maybe that. I'm wondering what other bikes use this same diaphragm. Maybe other bikes sell the same thing cheaper. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 28th, 2012, 07:26 AM	#17
rich3389 ninjette.org newbie Name: Rich Location: FL Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 9	OK I got it running almost perfectly now, I guess the ripped diaphragm was the problem. The bike only has a slight hesitation/stutter at cruising speeds between 7-8k rpms.

May 1st, 2012, 10:32 AM	#20
JLinde1339 Fighterer in Training Name: Joshua Location: Schenectady, NY Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2001 Ninja 250R Posts: 316	I've been having the exact same problem. Slightly torn diaphragm at the edge. Bike runs great until a half hour into the ride, then sputters and stalls. K&N filter, airbox delete, stock exhaust, 107.5 main, 6 shims. If that tire patch kit does the trick, you'll have made me a very happy man. Lol

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Rich or Lean	eulark	1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	6	May 11th, 2014 06:48 PM
Lean or Rich?	xaple	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	50	April 14th, 2013 04:01 PM
lean or rich condition	vmax	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	4	December 23rd, 2012 09:20 AM
lean/rich test	Confuzshuz	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	4	August 26th, 2012 09:30 PM
Rich or Lean?	ahskeetz	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	5	May 7th, 2009 01:22 AM