Bike running rich

[demp]

Okay so mileage is down, and it smells more gassy than usual, what are the most likely causes for this, could a gummed up carb potentially be the cause somehow?

[bob706]

Dirty air filter would be the first thing I would look at.

[demp]

Yep, thought about that, and put in a new K&N air filter, no impact, what's next on the list?

[bob706]

Running a healthy dose of seafoam thru the tank would help if you suspect the carbs are dirty.

[demp]

I was actually just trying to find where I can buy it here in Toronto... not having any luck, anyone know if there are any similar products I could look for? or is Seafoam the only one that makes this stuff?

[kkim]

any mods to the bike?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by demp

Okay so mileage is down, and it smells more gassy than usual, what are the most likely causes for this, could a gummed up carb potentially be the cause somehow?

Sounds exactly like my problem, which has only gotten more extreme.

Originally Posted by bob706

Dirty air filter would be the first thing I would look at.

Tried that. Replaced mine and it didn't improve.

Originally Posted by bob706

Running a healthy dose of seafoam thru the tank would help if you suspect the carbs are dirty.

Tried that too. Didn't improve.

Originally Posted by kkim

any mods to the bike?

If it's the same problem as mine, and it sounds like it is, then it isn't mod related because I have none!

[adouglas]

Haven't had any coffee yet so my IQ is about 30 points down. I haven't thought this through, but....

stuck float? bad float valve seat? Mixture screws way too rich?

Rich is either not enough air or too much fuel. Since it seems as if we've eliminated air as the culprit, it's got to be fuel.

So what would allow more fuel than normal into the engine?


Or is the fuel even getting into the engine? Do you have a good old-fashioned leak?

You're smelling gas and losing fuel, right?

I don't know. I need java.

[demp]

Kkim, stock bike apart from a removed snorkel + k&n air filter

If it was a good old fashioned leak I'd see evidence where I park right

Appreciate the help guys, how would one go about checking if it was the "float valve" or the mixture screw?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by demp

If it was a good old fashioned leak I'd see evidence where I park right

Not if it's a leak that only manifests itself when the bike is running.

The valve on the engine isn't a petcock like on most other bikes. It's a vacuum-operated valve that only opens when the engine fires up. So if you've got a leak somewhere between there and the carb, then (just guessing here) there could be a leak and you'd probably not see it with the bike parked.

[demp]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Not if it's a leak that only manifests itself when the bike is running.

The valve on the engine isn't a petcock like on most other bikes. It's a vacuum-operated valve that only opens when the engine fires up. So if you've got a leak somewhere between there and the carb, then (just guessing here) there could be a leak and you'd probably not see it with the bike parked.

but idling the bike parked, would show evidence of this correct?

[kkim]

Originally Posted by demp

Kkim, stock bike apart from a removed snorkel + k&n air filter

If it was a good old fashioned leak I'd see evidence where I park right

Appreciate the help guys, how would one go about checking if it was the "float valve" or the mixture screw?

check to see if your oil level is going up. I've read when the float gets stuck "open", the gas can flow out of the carbs and down into the cylinders, then into the oil. I dunno if I believe it (never had that problem, myself), but others swear it has happened.

how much lower is the gas mileage?

[demp]

it's gone from 400-ish km's per tank to something like 230ish, a considerable drop, I think it's been this way since the beginning of the season, anything to do with the bike sitting in the garage over the winter? & the oil level seems to be just fine

[CZroe]

Mine started after a dealer did my valve job and got worse from there. Is this "valve seat" possibly related to the work they did? Is it likely that they messed something up?

I'm getting 45MPG now, which is worse than ever despite the sprocket change which should have improved fuel economy.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by demp

anything to do with the bike sitting in the garage over the winter? & the oil level seems to be just fine

have you burned through all gas that was sitting in the tank over the winter, yet? If not, you might want to flush out whatever is left, refill with fresh gas and add some fuel cleaner to the tank to see if it helps. Seafoam might help. Do a search on Seafoam on the forum and others have suggested other similar products that may be available in your area.

The only thing I can think of is that something might be gumming up the fuel inlet valve in the carbs that is causing it to stick open/be sluggish and causing overfilling of the float bowls.

how's the performance of the bike otherwise?

If you can, pull the spark plugs and see what they look like.

[KELPHYN]

Matt- How long have you had the bike out this year? What's the weather been like? I know with mine the first tank or two the bike seems a little sluggish and the mileage is a little down ( close to around 230kms) but a couple of tanks of fresh gas with a little carb cleaner added and few fast rides it starts to run better. Also seems sluggish until the weather starts warming up, above 15C for a couple of days is nice. Side note - You get 400km to a tank? I think I'm doing good if I get close to 300 or just over. But most my riding is highway with a fair bit of WOT runs up 160kmh. Well hope it sorts itself out or you find the problem, maybe your just riding more aggressive this season :-)

Jet- Your still having problems? You say it started AFTER you had your vavles done? Is your bike backfiring at all? Trying to remember from your previous thread (to lazy to look it up) But if I remember it is also hard to start after it stalls. I would suspect your valves are set to tight and when your bike gets hot (because everything expands) the valves stay open, just that little bit. If it's exhaust valves your mileage will go down and smell fuel at the muffler,it will also probably afterfire (popping through the muffler) If its the intake valves, your mileage goes down you may get a stronger fuel smell at your air box and backfiring( popping back through the carbs) Either one will also cause starting issues. So if you didn't get your valves checked again since you had them done, maybe do. By a different shop than last time as they most likely won't admit they messed up.
Good luck, both of you.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by demp

but idling the bike parked, would show evidence of this correct?

Don't know... I'm in pure speculative territory.

Perhaps the leak is small enough that it's allowing you to smell fuel, but it's evaporating before it can drip.

Your mileage is so lousy, the fuel has to be going somewhere besides into the engine, it seems. If you were running THAT rich you'd really notice it in the bike's performance/smoke. Blue smoke...distinctive smell (not like gasoline).

[demp]

Originally Posted by KELPHYN

Matt- How long have you had the bike out this year? What's the weather been like? I know with mine the first tank or two the bike seems a little sluggish and the mileage is a little down ( close to around 230kms) but a couple of tanks of fresh gas with a little carb cleaner added and few fast rides it starts to run better. Also seems sluggish until the weather starts warming up, above 15C for a couple of days is nice. Side note - You get 400km to a tank? I think I'm doing good if I get close to 300 or just over. But most my riding is highway with a fair bit of WOT runs up 160kmh. Well hope it sorts itself out or you find the problem, maybe your just riding more aggressive this season :-)

Jet- Your still having problems? You say it started AFTER you had your vavles done? Is your bike backfiring at all? Trying to remember from your previous thread (to lazy to look it up) But if I remember it is also hard to start after it stalls. I would suspect your valves are set to tight and when your bike gets hot (because everything expands) the valves stay open, just that little bit. If it's exhaust valves your mileage will go down and smell fuel at the muffler,it will also probably afterfire (popping through the muffler) If its the intake valves, your mileage goes down you may get a stronger fuel smell at your air box and backfiring( popping back through the carbs) Either one will also cause starting issues. So if you didn't get your valves checked again since you had them done, maybe do. By a different shop than last time as they most likely won't admit they messed up.
Good luck, both of you.

Yea last year I was gettin an easy 400 out of a tank, I've put on about 2000 kms this season, can anyone suggest a carb cleaner for the bike?, and it hasn't been backfiring or anything of that sort, it does seem to be running right, the mileage is just lacking. & yeah I will go have the valves checked again

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by KELPHYN

Matt- How long have you had the bike out this year? What's the weather been like? I know with mine the first tank or two the bike seems a little sluggish and the mileage is a little down ( close to around 230kms) but a couple of tanks of fresh gas with a little carb cleaner added and few fast rides it starts to run better. Also seems sluggish until the weather starts warming up, above 15C for a couple of days is nice. Side note - You get 400km to a tank? I think I'm doing good if I get close to 300 or just over. But most my riding is highway with a fair bit of WOT runs up 160kmh. Well hope it sorts itself out or you find the problem, maybe your just riding more aggressive this season :-)

Jet- Your still having problems? You say it started AFTER you had your vavles done? Is your bike backfiring at all? Trying to remember from your previous thread (to lazy to look it up) But if I remember it is also hard to start after it stalls. I would suspect your valves are set to tight and when your bike gets hot (because everything expands) the valves stay open, just that little bit. If it's exhaust valves your mileage will go down and smell fuel at the muffler,it will also probably afterfire (popping through the muffler) If its the intake valves, your mileage goes down you may get a stronger fuel smell at your air box and backfiring( popping back through the carbs) Either one will also cause starting issues. So if you didn't get your valves checked again since you had them done, maybe do. By a different shop than last time as they most likely won't admit they messed up.
Good luck, both of you.

Yup; still havin' the same problems but even worse since the last service when I had them look at it 500 miles ago. They said that they found no problems. Still no It's only stalled like that a few times in 13K miles, so I'm not really sure if it's related to the overly-rich running condition. Each time it refused to fire for several minutes except the third time it was raining and refused to start until I pushed it to a gas station and added gas (I think opening the gas tank did the trick). It can't really start without choke even though it used to do that on warm days and something is still out of whack with my choke cable (dealer didn't fix that when I asked either). I'm definitely smelling fuel at the muffler... enough to gag on when it's still cold! It doesn't really backfire though I have heard it once or twice when I had water in the tailpipe (rain or just after a wash/rinse). The shop that did the valves was closed for good when I called them back two days later, becoming a race-only service which sold their name to an online retailer, so I couldn't take it back to them if I wanted to! that was last August. The smell wasn't so bad then and I just wanted to make it to my next valve service but it's gotten much worse and I am still thousands of miles away from it. It doesn't seem to idle at a completely steady speed even when warm, though it is idling about where it should be once it gets there. My mileage has gone down as the smell worsened. I was getting about 49MPG just before my sprocket change (14:45>15:41) and switch to synthetic (Shell Rotella T6). Since then I got 47MPG then 45MPG and it looks like I'm going to get even less on this tank. I'm a big guy and the Cycle World review didn't get much better, so I wasn't too worried about the mileage until it decreased measurably after a gearing and oil change that should have both increased it.

Originally Posted by adouglas

Don't know... I'm in pure speculative territory.

Perhaps the leak is small enough that it's allowing you to smell fuel, but it's evaporating before it can drip.

Your mileage is so lousy, the fuel has to be going somewhere besides into the engine, it seems. If you were running THAT rich you'd really notice it in the bike's performance/smoke. Blue smoke...distinctive smell (not like gasoline).

I sometimes get excessive visible fumes since the problem recently worsened (warming up at night time/mornings). I smell a smell like burning coolant if I run it a little hard before it's fully warmed up. Is that what you're talking about?

Originally Posted by demp

Yea last year I was gettin an easy 400 out of a tank, I've put on about 2000 kms this season, can anyone suggest a carb cleaner for the bike?, and it hasn't been backfiring or anything of that sort, it does seem to be running right, the mileage is just lacking. & yeah I will go have the valves checked again

Everyone says to use Seafoam. I've run it in my gas but haven't directly tried to clean carbs (I've never even taken my fairings off myself). It didn't fix anything for me though the bike did seem to run better as long as there was some in the gas. I really do think that we have the same problem so I hope you don't mind all my interjections in this thread.

[demp]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Everyone says to use Seafoam. I've run it in my gas but haven't directly tried to clean carbs (I've never even taken my fairings off myself). It didn't fix anything for me though the bike did seem to run better as long as there was some in the gas. I really do think that we have the same problem so I hope you don't mind all my interjections in this thread.

Course I don't mind, but as far as seafoam goes - i'd have to order it, is there anything similar to it I could look for? seafoam seems to only be available in the states

[CZroe]

I heard that it's been seen at NAPA Auto Parts in Canada.

[demp]

Thanks, there's one of those not far from me, will stop by there tonight

[demp]

Okay I got the seafoam, how do I know how much to put into the tank? it doesn't really say, I did find that it says 1 can will treat 30-95 liters of fuel, but I can't seem to find an amount

Nvm - I see it, 1 ounce per gallon, so about 5 ounces into a full tank?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by demp

Okay I got the seafoam, how do I know how much to put into the tank? it doesn't really say, I did find that it says 1 can will treat 30-95 liters of fuel, but I can't seem to find an amount

Nvm - I see it, 1 ounce per gallon, so about 5 ounces into a full tank?

Yup. I used the dosage cups from NyQuil/DayQuil. 2 TBSP or 30 ml = 1 FL OZ. Aussies, ignore me. You have a different TBSP measurement.

[kkim]

I'd put a bit more than they call for, seeing as you are already having problems.

IMHO, the best thing would be for you to get some straight seafoam into the carbs by removing the fuel line from the tank and introducing the seafoam there to be sucked into the carb bowls.

Run the bike for a bit (5-10 minutes), then shut it down. leave it overnight so the seafoam can hopefully dissolve whatever sludge that is causing your problem and run the bike the next day to see if it makes any difference.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by kkim

IMHO, the best thing would be for you to get some straight seafoam into the carbs by removing the fuel line from the tank and introducing the seafoam there to be sucked into the carb bowls.

Run the bike for a bit (5-10 minutes), then shut it down. leave it overnight so the seafoam can hopefully dissolve whatever sludge that is causing your problem and run the bike the next day to see if it makes any difference.

+2 Seafoam works wonders!

[headshrink]

I have always read that Seafoam does cause a lot of smoke as it burns off, and yes, that is also does wonders. When I used it in my tank, even with a generous pour with little gas left in the tank, I didn't notice and smoke coming out the pipe.

Does it only smoke when you inject it directly into the carb as you are recommending?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by kkim

I'd put a bit more than they call for, seeing as you are already having problems.

IMHO, the best thing would be for you to get some straight seafoam into the carbs by removing the fuel line from the tank and introducing the seafoam there to be sucked into the carb bowls.

Run the bike for a bit (5-10 minutes), then shut it down. leave it overnight so the seafoam can hopefully dissolve whatever sludge that is causing your problem and run the bike the next day to see if it makes any difference.

I need to try this then. My tank is almost empty. How extreme should I go? I only tried the recommended amount before.

Originally Posted by headshrink

I have always read that Seafoam does cause a lot of smoke as it burns off, and yes, that is also does wonders. When I used it in my tank, even with a generous pour with little gas left in the tank, I didn't notice and smoke coming out the pipe.

Does it only smoke when you inject it directly into the carb as you are recommending?

I'm thinking that the smoke has more to do with the gunk it frees up than anything so it's probably entirely situational.

[alexit69]

Originally Posted by kkim

get some straight seafoam into the carbs by removing the fuel line from the tank and introducing the seafoam there to be sucked into the carb bowls.

Is the fuel line one of the hoses connecting to the gas tank? How will the engine run to suck in the Seafoam if the gas tank is off?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by alexit69

Is the fuel line one of the hoses connecting to the gas tank?

Ummm....

Think about that for juuuuust a sec.







Yah. I thought you'd get it.

Originally Posted by alexit69

How will the engine run to suck in the Seafoam if the gas tank is off?

Press the starter button. Starter turns engine over, which creates vacuum in the carb, which draws fuel in.

[tjkamper]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I have always read that Seafoam does cause a lot of smoke as it burns off, and yes, that is also does wonders. When I used it in my tank, even with a generous pour with little gas left in the tank, I didn't notice and smoke coming out the pipe.

Does it only smoke when you inject it directly into the carb as you are recommending?

The big Seafoam smoke stories you hear about are when you flush it through the top end. I've done this many times to cars, but I haven't done it to the ninja yet. I might do it before I do my next valve job, just to see how it works out.

To do this you have to find a vacumn line, (On most cars I take it off of the brake booster behind the master cylinder). You stick a funel in the vacum line, turn on the engine and slowly poor in the Seafoam. Then when you have a little bit left, you poor it all in fast to stall the engine. Leave the Seafoam in for 20 minutes and then crank her up. Rev it up and drive the balls off the car to clean out the Carbon and Seafoam.

You get a beautiful smoke show

[alexit69]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Ummm....

Yah. I thought you'd get it.

hahhaha yeah i didn't feel like editing my post when i reread the obvious....

Thanks for the tips on drawing in the fuel! I gotta try this cuz i'm getting real bad gas mileage too and one of my dealers says that a carb clean is 300$ I hope this helps. I bought my bike used and it's never gotten great mileage so it may be bad winterizing from the previous owner... or me, but i put in fuel stabilizer and emptied the float bowls over winter. In any case, i'll try this in a few weeks (busy with school) and testify for the miracles of Seafoam.

[KELPHYN]

Jett- You said your mileage dropped AFTER you changed your gearing (hint). Just a thought, but I think with 15:41 gearing,there is a good chance your lugging your your motor more ( more throttle at lower speeds) Lower rpm doesn't always mean better gas mileage. I would change your rear sprocket back to the stock and try the 15:45 combo. Thats what I run and my mileage still varies from as little as 175km to a tank to 345km. It really depends on how much WOT I use. When I ride by myself usually average 115-120 kmph I get 300kms easy. But when I ride with my buds ( they all have 1000cc bikes) I'm WOT ALOT!! Seem to cruise at 130-140 with lots of runs up to 160+. Lots of days my bike doesn't drop below 11,000rpm for hours at a time and it just drinks the gas. Keep it around 7500-8000rpm (100-110 kmph) and it just sips it. Not sure if my rambling helps but driving style plays a big rule in the mileage game. To me it doesn't matter much, still have to fill it when it's empty. But it is nice to know how you have to ride stretch that tank when you have to. Good Luck.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by KELPHYN

Jett- You said your mileage dropped AFTER you changed your gearing (hint). Just a thought, but I think with 15:41 gearing,there is a good chance your lugging your your motor more ( more throttle at lower speeds) Lower rpm doesn't always mean better gas mileage. I would change your rear sprocket back to the stock and try the 15:45 combo. Thats what I run and my mileage still varies from as little as 175km to a tank to 345km. It really depends on how much WOT I use. When I ride by myself usually average 115-120 kmph I get 300kms easy. But when I ride with my buds ( they all have 1000cc bikes) I'm WOT ALOT!! Seem to cruise at 130-140 with lots of runs up to 160+. Lots of days my bike doesn't drop below 11,000rpm for hours at a time and it just drinks the gas. Keep it around 7500-8000rpm (100-110 kmph) and it just sips it. Not sure if my rambling helps but driving style plays a big rule in the mileage game. To me it doesn't matter much, still have to fill it when it's empty. But it is nice to know how you have to ride stretch that tank when you have to. Good Luck.

Thanks, Calvin. I do have to rev a lot more and let the clutch slip to get started in 1st gear, but I do a lot of freeway riding and the lowered RPMs should definitely be helping (it does stay around 8,000 RPM at freeway speeds).

I also don't know why it's been dropping steadily since the sprocket change. I've filled up several times and it's dropped 1-1.5MPG with every fill up until it got down to 39MPG and now, after the latest fill up, I'm back up to 41MPG. That's not even what I was getting right after the sprocket change. I do often shift early to maintain lower RPMs but I also run to redline at take-off every now and then when lane splitting up to stop lights... I have to make sure I get ahead of one of the lanes to merge back in. I guess I should stop doing both! I redlined it at takeoff sometimes when lane-splitting before too, though it required an upshift first. The new gearing ensures that I can usually pass and merge first before hitting redline without a shift.

I would do that and then settle at speed, quickly shifting up through the gears to lower my RPM ASAP, sometimes until it boggs down (already at cruising speed anyway). If anything, it gives a good blast of Seafoam-treated gas into the carbs, right?!

[mrlmd]

Are you using gas with ethanol mixed in and previously were using only pure gas?
The E-10 or whatever other gas-ethanol mixes are out there give less mpg than straight gas. and less power. Maybe your local stations have switched formulations with the change in seasons or switched to this other gas blend. Check that out.

Berrryman's B12 Chemtool is like Seafoam, much cheaper, and many people like it better. Avail at Walmart for about $3 a can, use 1 oz./gal gas, use it every 4 or so tankfuls to keep the carbs clean. DO NOT SPILL IT ON THE PAINT.

[demp]

Well I'm not too sure if it was the gas I was using - or running the seafoam through but it's much improved, now my next question, does anyone know a way to improve accuracy of that awful fuel gauge?

[alexit69]

I've run Seafoam in the gas (and put more than the 1oz/gallon recommended). My bike now starts a lot easier. It used to require abt 3 tries before it started now it starts the first time with full choke. It isn't the temperature because it snowed out of nowhere a few weeks ago even though it's summer here and it started pretty well after the Seafoam treatment.

Gas mileage has improved and I'm making abt 45 mpg vs 30 mpg before Seafoam. However that's still pretty low even without shimming or any performance mods. In any case, I'm going in for a service soon and I'm going to tell them abt this problem.

On another note, I'm having another problem but i don't want to thread jack so I'll search first and ask later.

[mrlmd]

A big overdose of Seafoam or any of those cleaners will make the bike run like crap so don't overdo it too much.

You want a more accurate fuel gauge? Use the odometer, fill up every 150 miles or so and you won't have a problem. Many small bikes don't even have a fuel gauge.

[demp]

Originally Posted by kkim

I'd put a bit more than they call for, seeing as you are already having problems.

IMHO, the best thing would be for you to get some straight seafoam into the carbs by removing the fuel line from the tank and introducing the seafoam there to be sucked into the carb bowls.

Run the bike for a bit (5-10 minutes), then shut it down. leave it overnight so the seafoam can hopefully dissolve whatever sludge that is causing your problem and run the bike the next day to see if it makes any difference.

So I know I'm updating an ancient thread, but anyways, the mileage has improved - somewhat, it's not where it was, but it's a lot better.

Now the reason I'm thinking about doing what you suggest here Kelly, is that my bike last season, required absolutely no choke usage. but now it seems to need it every time (not for a long time, maybe 1-2 minutes?)

So I just wanted to make sure I understand here, I remove the fuel line feeding the carbs, and stick it in a container full of seafoam? and run the bike off of 100% seafoam? It had better not explode or anything rediculous! and then let the bike sit overnight and let the seafoam clean the crap outa the carbs? --- when I start it in the morning, I assume it's going to have black smoke coming out of the exhaust?

[CZroe]

My rich-running bike has required choke usage for starting every day just like yours, but I'm not sure I'm mechanically inclined enough to do that.