No Start & Stuck in Gear

[///M]

Hi all, first post here. Recently picked up a non-running 94 250 that has supposedly sat for 2 years.

I have gotten it to run a couple times (not with starter, but with bump starting and a push from a friend). It will not start just with the starter.

When I was able to get it to run, it would die anywhere below 2000 rpm. Also the idle would hang quite often until I messed with the idle set screw (leaning out maybe?) Carbs were cleaned by the previous owner. And today I have not been able to get it started yet.
Things I have done so far is new spark plugs (NGK CR8HSA), fresh oil, checked spark (although seemed weak. Resistance of the coils were both 3.1ohms).

Also now it seems to be stuck in 1st gear. It feels like it goes into neutral (and can click back down into what would feel like 1st), but it is still stuck in gear. I know I am not in a higher gear because I haven't had it in 2nd gear as of yet. I've tried rocking the bike back and forth to get it into neutral but have not had any luck.

[Triple Jim]

My first guess is that the idle circuits in your carbs are clogged from sitting, and the previous owner missed curing that when he cleaned them.

Could your transmission trouble be related to the feature of this transmission that helps you find neutral? When the bike is stopped, you can go from neutral to 1st and back to neutral, but not past neutral to 2nd until the engine is running and you're moving. You should be able to get it into neutral by moving the bike back and forth a little though. From 1st gear, lift the shift lever up all the way firmly, which would get you into 2nd on most bikes, and it should go into neutral.

Welcome to the board, Jon!

[///M]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

My first guess is that the idle circuits in your carbs are clogged from sitting, and the previous owner missed curing that when he cleaned them.

Could your transmission trouble be related to the feature of this transmission that helps you find neutral? When the bike is stopped, you can go from neutral to 1st and back to neutral, but not past neutral to 2nd until the engine is running and you're moving.

Welcome to the board, Jon!

I'll pull the carbs and clean them tonight.

As far as the transmission goes - I am unsure. It feels like it normally would for shifting from 1st to neutral for vice versa - just it will stay in 1st. It doesn't feel like there's a lockout like if you try to go to 2nd. In days prior I haven't had issues with it.

[Triple Jim]

See what the transmission does when you have the engine running after the carb clean.

[///M]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

See what the transmission does when you have the engine running after the carb clean.

Will do, I will report back this evening.

[///M]

No luck tonight.

Cleaned the carbs (were very clean) and adjusted the floats - adjustment was a few mm off.

Tried to start it and didn't seem to have fuel getting to the cylinders. Once the float bowls filled with fuel, I didn't see any gas more gas moving through the filter.

I've checked for vacuum leaks (and am 95% sure all vacuum lines are connected). Did not see any cracks or obvious leaks when the carbs were out.

[NaturalFlavored]

Is the chock on or off?
I've found. out if the chock is all the way on but when your taking it off it dies, due to the idle screw isn't set right.
If you suck on the vacuum fuel line does fuel flow constant? Be sure 100% there is no vacuum leaks, I've worked on a carb scooter and it had a lot of issues if there was any air leaks.
Valves ok too?

[///M]

Originally Posted by NaturalFlavored

Is the chock on or off?
I've found. out if the chock is all the way on but when your taking it off it dies, due to the idle screw isn't set right.
If you suck on the vacuum fuel line does fuel flow constant? Be sure 100% there is no vacuum leaks, I've worked on a carb scooter and it had a lot of issues if there was any air leaks.
Valves ok too?

I've tried with the choke off, half on, and full on. Same result with either setting.

As far as valves go, I'm going to do an adjustment today or tomorrow. I didn't have a set of feeler gauges that were small enough, so I'll be picking up a new set. Maybe a compression check should also be next on the list?

[jkv45]

As far a the running issue, I would remove the air filter and give it a quick shot of starter fluid before cranking to see what it does. Make sure you are charging the battery between attempts. If it sputters to life you know almost certainly that you have a fuel-related issue. Did you check the inline filter inside the fuel line at the carb inlet for a blockage? You may need to have the carbs professionally cleaned and adjusted. There could be an issue with the carb diaphragms also. Pull the fuel line, apply vacuum to the petcock, and confirm flow.

For the transmission, I would make sure you have gotten it into 1st gear. Keep tapping down while rocking the bike forward and back. It would be odd if it were stuck in gear and wouldn't change. I'm thinking it may not be in 1st, and you are clicking up looking for neutral from a higher gear.

[///M]

Originally Posted by jkv45

As far a the running issue, I would remove the air filter and give it a quick shot of starter fluid before cranking to see what it does. Make sure you are charging the battery between attempts. If it sputters to life you know almost certainly that you have a fuel-related issue. Did you check the inline filter inside the fuel line at the carb inlet for a blockage? You may need to have the carbs professionally cleaned and adjusted. There could be an issue with the carb diaphragms also. Pull the fuel line, apply vacuum to the petcock, and confirm flow.

For the transmission, I would make sure you have gotten it into 1st gear. Keep tapping down while rocking the bike forward and back. It would be odd if it were stuck in gear and wouldn't change. I'm thinking it may not be in 1st, and you are clicking up looking for neutral from a higher gear.

It does not fire up or even try to kick over when spraying starting fluid.
I've verified that it does have spark on both cylinders.

[Z1R rider]

time for a compression test

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ///M

It does not fire up or even try to kick over when spraying starting fluid.
I've verified that it does have spark on both cylinders.

It would be really odd that it doesn't pop at all if there is spark.

You may need to open the throttle while cranking to allow the Starter Fluid to get past the closed butterflies.

[///M]

Originally Posted by jkv45

It would be really odd that it doesn't pop at all if there is spark.

You may need to open the throttle while cranking to allow the Starter Fluid to get bast the closed butterflies.

Already tried that as well.

[DannoXYZ]

What colour is the spark that you saw when testing?
Was it yellow/red?
Or white/blue?

[///M]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

What colour is the spark that you saw when testing?
Was it yellow/red?
Or white/blue?

White.

[jkv45]

I dunno. At this point I would plan to pull off the carbs and go through them.

If you have spark, the carbs are going to be the main focus.

[///M]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I dunno. At this point I would plan to pull off the carbs and go through them.

If you have spark, the carbs are going to be the main focus.

Already had them apart. Floats needed adjustment.

Also got the transmission back into neutral after playing with it for some time.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ///M

Already had them apart. Floats needed adjustment.

Also got the transmission back into neutral after playing with it for some time.

Did you look at the diaphragms? I still think there's something not right.

Good to hear you got it into neutral. Hopefully there's not a significant problem that keeps it from doing it when needed.

[///M]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Did you look at the diaphragms? I still think there's something not right.

Good to hear you got it into neutral. Hopefully there's not a significant problem that keeps it from doing it when needed.

Diaphragms looked brand new, and slid up and down easily.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ///M

Diaphragms looked brand new, and slid up and down easily.

Hmm...

You removed the Main Jet and Jet Holder/Needle Jet and cleaned them, right?

[///M]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Hmm...

You removed the Main Jet and Jet Holder/Needle Jet and cleaned them, right?

Correct. Everything was torn down and cleaned out.

[ducatiman]

Originally Posted by ///M

Correct. Everything was torn down and cleaned out.

What methods did you use to *clean the internal passageways and circuits?

And how did you confirm each circuit was, in fact, *clean?

Did you also address the starter circuit?


*IMHO a better term is actually *clear*

[///M]

Originally Posted by ducatiman

What methods did you use to *clean the internal passageways and circuits?

And how did you confirm each circuit was, in fact, *clean?

Did you also address the starter circuit?


*IMHO a better term is actually *clear*

I'll shoot you a PM sometime soon.



I did a quick oil change and it was chocolate milk. Did a leak down test and found the headgasket was leaking. Pulled it apart, and it was leaking between the cylinders, as well as from one of the water ports.

Already took it to the machining shop at my college, and the head is true and not warped. Same story with the cylinders.

[///M]

Got it running today! Fired right up, runs fantastic now.

[Triple Jim]

That's great news! How is the transmission shifting?

[///M]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

That's great news! How is the transmission shifting?

Smooth as butter through all gears! Rode for a few hours this afternoon and had no issues whatsoever.

[Triple Jim]

Excellent.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by ///M

It does not fire up or even try to kick over when spraying starting fluid.
I've verified that it does have spark on both cylinders.

I'd be careful with the starting fluid, it's been said that that stuff will ruin your diaphragms.

Bill

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

I'd be careful with the starting fluid, it's been said that that stuff will ruin your diaphragms.

Bill

I haven't heard that, but it's nasty stuff.

I only use a small amount of it if I need to confirm there's a fueling issue. I've had temperamental engines start right up with just a tiny shot, and not need it after that.

Definitely don't ever spray it until it drips - just a light shot is all you should ever use.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I haven't heard that, but it's nasty stuff.

I only use a small amount of it if I need to confirm there's a fueling issue. I've had temperamental engines start right up with just a tiny shot, and not need it after that.

Definitely don't ever spray it until it drips - just a light shot is all you should ever use.

I was just passing on what our resident carburetor Guru Ducatiman said. Glad you're not using much of it.

Right Dukemeister?

Bill

[///M]

All I did was take the plugs out and spray a quick shot into the cylinders. No worries about the carbs

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by ///M

All I did was take the plugs out and spray a quick shot into the cylinders. No worries about the carbs

Excellent and good thinking.

Bill

[///M]

Hey guys, couple issues I've had over the past few weeks of riding (or well, 3 full days of riding as I've been on vacation as of late).

If I'm cruising through town (30mph) or really anywhere below 6-7k rpm (mind you I am just cruising, not accelerating or decelerating) it will begin "bucking" or seem like there may be a misfire (or something of the sorts). Also it idles fantastic when cold (and does not require any choke no matter the ambient air temperature). When hot it'll idle for roughly 5 seconds and drop RPM until it stalls. If I am on the throttle and accelerating through the midrange RPMs it does not have a single issue. It only arises when maintaining low speeds.

Would this be an issues with the carbs? And if it is, would it be an adjustment or would it be dirty idle circuits? Another thought was a possible vacuum leak (going to replace all lines when I get home from my trip, along with fuel lines just for safe measure).

The issues vanished completely after I opened it up getting on the interstate (WOT all the way to redline through 3rd gear) and then returned the next day (and has not gone away since then, no matter how hard or easily I run it).

Gas is fresh (tried with 87 and 93). I'd also like to add that it starts a lot quicker when cold than hot. Cold it'll start with no choke after a couple seconds and idle at 1700rpm. Hot it will take a solid 5-7 seconds of cranking and slight bits of throttle added to get it to go (and then require throttle to keep it idling).

Also would like to add that after 3 tanks of fuel it averaged 55 mpg all tanks of mostly 50mph-ish twisty roads.
Would my float adjustment possibly have it too rich?

Sorry for the long post. Mixture of thinking out loud and questions :P

[NaturalFlavored]

At first I thought carbs or vacuum leak until you said it's better cold than hot.
Heat expands while cold retracts so there must be something else. I'm not too familiar with bikes, I'm not sure how different they are from cars especially with carbs.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by ///M

Hey guys, couple issues I've had over the past few weeks of riding (or well, 3 full days of riding as I've been on vacation as of late).

If I'm cruising through town (30mph) or really anywhere below 6-7k rpm (mind you I am just cruising, not accelerating or decelerating) it will begin "bucking" or seem like there may be a misfire (or something of the sorts). Also it idles fantastic when cold (and does not require any choke no matter the ambient air temperature). When hot it'll idle for roughly 5 seconds and drop RPM until it stalls. If I am on the throttle and accelerating through the midrange RPMs it does not have a single issue. It only arises when maintaining low speeds.

Would this be an issues with the carbs? And if it is, would it be an adjustment or would it be dirty idle circuits? Another thought was a possible vacuum leak (going to replace all lines when I get home from my trip, along with fuel lines just for safe measure).

The issues vanished completely after I opened it up getting on the interstate (WOT all the way to redline through 3rd gear) and then returned the next day (and has not gone away since then, no matter how hard or easily I run it).

Gas is fresh (tried with 87 and 93). I'd also like to add that it starts a lot quicker when cold than hot. Cold it'll start with no choke after a couple seconds and idle at 1700rpm. Hot it will take a solid 5-7 seconds of cranking and slight bits of throttle added to get it to go (and then require throttle to keep it idling).

Also would like to add that after 3 tanks of fuel it averaged 55 mpg all tanks of mostly 50mph-ish twisty roads.
Would my float adjustment possibly have it too rich?

Sorry for the long post. Mixture of thinking out loud and questions :P

I would check the pilot air screws. If you haven't already, pull the EPA plugs, unscrew the pilot screws and examine the "O" rings. If they have deteriorated replace them and adjust the screws out from their seat 2.5 turns. It's worth a check to be sure. This will entail carburetor removal if you haven't removed the EPA plugs previously.

Bill

[jkv45]

Sounds carb related to me.

Cleaning, adjusting, syncing, and maybe a shim on the needle should make it run properly.

Because it starts cold better than hot, I think it's getting too much gas. It should need some choke if it's stone cold, and it shouldn't idle that high wihtout any. A vacuum leak is a possibility.

The "bucking" would be another indication that something isn't right in the carbs. Probably too rich, but look at the plugs for clues.

Float height should be checked and idle mixture screws are best set in the range of 2.5 turns out for starters.

When working with carbs, think in terms of throttle position (1/8, 1/4, 1/2, etc) instead of RPMs to get a better idea of which circuit needs adjustment.

[///M]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Sounds carb related to me.

Cleaning, adjusting, syncing, and maybe a shim on the needle should make it run properly.

Because it starts cold better than hot, I think it's getting too much gas. It should need some choke if it's stone cold, and it shouldn't idle that high wihtout any. A vacuum leak is a possibility.

The "bucking" would be another indication that something isn't right in the carbs. Probably too rich, but look at the plugs for clues.

Float height should be checked and idle mixture screws are best set in the range of 2.5 turns out for starters.

Just for a quick frame of reference - I set the idle high out of personal preference.

I added a couple shims to the needles with no change. I'm thinking I might have adjusted the floats too far? I did a pretty major adjustment (bike was running lean when I tested it previously, and there's a good possibility of me incorrectly measuring the 17mm float height).

Also the idle mixture screws are 3 turns out, I'll try 2.5 turns out. I'll also pull the plugs (when I get home from vacation that is) and see if it's running overly rich, and likely replace them while I'm at it (plug chop might be some good info?)

Bill - o-rings looked brand new when I pulled the carbs apart last.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by ///M

All I did was take the plugs out and spray a quick shot into the cylinders. No worries about the carbs

If you take the plugs out, you can just put about 1/2 a teaspoon of gasoline in each cylinder and it will work at least as well as starting fluid, which my be half evaporated by the time you get the plugs back in.

[///M]

Hi all, lack of reply since I've been too busy riding.
Once I adjusted the floats down to run leaner, the bog is gone. Also after a recent plug change, it is currently at a near perfect A/F.

[CaliGrrl]

That's the best reason for being away from the board! Glad you got her going and on the road.