Ninja 300 vs. CBR500R - the inevitable comparison thread

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Same. I'm betting they've got it pretty well plugged up to make it fit in with the EU and UK regulations. I hope there's a lot of gain in minimal intake/exhaust and fueling changes. Just look at the gains we've seen in the 300 so far.

The Honda may not be stellar in an hp comparison, but it should have a good deal more low and mid-range torque than the 300 right?

True, but for 50lbs more weight, I'd like more than a 15hp increase

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'd like to ride one as well. Specs seem good for a budget bike. It has compromises in it, including being quite heavy for its size/specs, but so does our 300. I think build quality/finish isn't clearcut as of yet; I thought that this line was going to be built in Thailand as well, like the CBR250R. If so, there's no reason to believe that it will be markedly different from either its little brother, or our kawis built nearby by the same labor force under the same conditions/incentives/pricing structure.

I'm not going to say one is better then the other, but it seems quite strange to me how people can assume that two entirely different companies would produce the same quality of stuff just because they operate in the same country, as if the only variable that matters in a bike's construction is the factory worker's place of birth.

Do you think Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Toyota are all on the same level and all make the same vehicles to the same quality standards with their Japanese factories, simply by the fact they employ Japanese workers?

[ninjaone]

Sorry for that off topic post above ^^^

I'd really say if you are looking to go faster then a Ninja 250 and don't really care how crappy your suspension is, your best bet would be an SV650. Those have tons of character, sound great (90' v twins do that) and are very fast and actually I think lighter then these Honda 500s.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

I'm not going to say one is better then the other, but it seems quite strange to me how people can assume that two entirely different companies would produce the same quality of stuff just because they operate in the same country, as if the only variable that matters in a bike's construction is the factory worker's place of birth.

Reading comprehension fail. Just re-read what you quoted of mine, and you'll see the factors that lead to similar products.

Honda doesn't outsource production to Thailand for any different reasons than Kawasaki does. It's cheaper to build bikes there. And both companies have decided to outsource the production of their least expensive, least polished bikes to that environment because a comparatively lower quality fit/finish/overall quality is more acceptable in this market segment. Honda doesn't build CBR1000RR's or ST1300's there for the same reason that Kawi doesn't build ZX-14's or Concours there.

[ninjaone]

It wasn't so much a reading comprehension fail as it was a refutation that those are the only factors that matter when considering manufacturing and production in a country which is what your post was implying.

The fact is the factories in Thailand are accountable to two entirely different companies with two different cultures and two different ways of doing things and ultimately two different standards for quality - again I'm not saying which one is better. I think it's a bit silly to imply that two different companies would produce the same quality of products just by virtue of the fact they operate in the same country (for cost reasons or otherwise).

I think the ultimate implication is a bit offensive concerning the actual workers on the floor doing the actual building.

[CZroe]

I do get frustrated when I see Kawasaki knowingly using bad rubber on our bikes and often wonder if Honda would ever do the same. It isn't coincidence that the exposed windscreen wellnuts are the same size but a different part number (all the rest are "out of sight, out of mind").

I'm also annoyed by our CDI, petcock, and other frustrating quality issues. After 20 years of making the EX250F and seeing all the tank leaks caused by mixing up tank/fairing bolts, I can't believe that they didn't switch to all 18mm long bolts (instead of a mix of 18 and 20mm bolts). To think that they then they went and started puncturing the tanks right out of the factory (clearing threads after painting tank; generated a recall for 2005/2006 tanks IIRC) pre-Thailand production when their process was most mature is shocking.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I do get frustrated when I see Kawasaki knowingly using bad rubber on our bikes and often wonder if Honda would ever do the same. It isn't coincidence that the exposed windscreen wellnuts are the same size but a different part number (all the rest are "out of sight, out of mind").

I'm also annoyed by our CDI, petcock, and other frustrating quality issues.

They aren't necessarily bad tires, they are high mileage tires. High mileage tires are a harder compound so they last longer, my first set I got 11k out of them. Think about who the target is for the 250s though (or was). n00bs. n00bs that aren't going to care what tires are on the bike, n00bs that wouldn't know the difference between the tires. I'm not so sure that the IRC's are a cost cutter because if you look them up they are only slightly cheaper (particularly for a company buying in bulk) than the good rubber

Also, on the 300s the IRC tires are supposed to be a better stickier compound though likely still "high mileage"

Oh also, my cdi and petcock work perfectly

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

They aren't necessarily bad tires, they are high mileage tires. High mileage tires are a harder compound so they last longer, my first set I got 11k out of them. Think about who the target is for the 250s though (or was). n00bs. n00bs that aren't going to care what tires are on the bike, n00bs that wouldn't know the difference between the tires. I'm not so sure that the IRC's are a cost cutter because if you look them up they are only slightly cheaper (particularly for a company buying in bulk) than the good rubber

Also, on the 300s the IRC tires are supposed to be a better stickier compound though likely still "high mileage"

Oh also, my cdi and petcock work perfectly

Not tires. I edited above. I'm talking about all the rotten rubber wellnuts, clutch cable boot, trip-meter reset button cover, etc. The parts catalog proves that they know about the bad rubber as far as wellnuts are concerned. The two visible windscreen wellnuts with the different part number (and same size) are the only ones that weren't rotten on my entire bike when I looked at them all after 1 year old... except for the two a dealer already had to replace when they first serviced the bike (right fairing). I bought a replacement trip meter rubber bulb that rotted in my tool box before I even installed it (set it aside to instal the next time I was in the gauge). I bought a replacement clutch cable and it rotted while the bike was in storage for less than a year (looks fine until you operate the clutch and see the cracks straight through the rubber).

Also, there are manufacturing QA issues, like the rubber seat dampers falling out of the passenger seat due to not being fully installed. Mine didn't make it home from the dealer. Most people missing them never even knew they were there. They clearly knew about the problem because they started adding glue, but the real problem was that they were never fully inserted (replaced mine, fully inserted them, noted that they appear fully inserted before they actually are, used the helmet lock daily for four years, and they never fell out again). Kawi probably fixed that a long time ago, but there's no excuse for adding glue to the process before identifying the real issue.

[Jiggles]

Lol gotcha. As far as it goes I haven't had any issues with the wellnuts or any other rubber bits as far as I can tell

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Lol gotcha. As far as it goes I haven't had any issues with the wellnuts or any other rubber bits as far as I can tell

You simply go through Ninja's too quickly or they finally ran out of parts with the bad compound after many years.

[Jiggles]

Could be! Though both my 250s were born only a few days apart

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Could be! Though both my 250s were born only a few days apart

There are a couple in the undertail and a couple in the headlight that the PO likely never replaced. I'd be interested in what they look like if you ever have a look! I hope Kawi fixed the issue, but my last clutch cable was ordered in 2011 and it rotted almost instantly.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I can't believe that after 20 years of making the EX250F and seeing all the tanks leaks caused by mixing up tank bolts that they didn't switch to all 18mm long fairing bolts (instead of a mix of 18 and 20mm bolts), and then they went and started puncturing the tanks right out of the factory

Ummm, they did? Mine has 2 pairs of factory bolts that are both 18mm long. It was completely stock when I got it. Nothing had been changed at all.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Ummm, they did? Mine has 2 pairs of factory bolts that are both 18mm long. It was completely stock when I got it. Nothing had been changed at all.

Sorry. I wasn't sure what part of the fairing the 20mm bolt comes from because mine have been thoroughly mixed up by the previous owners so I just looked it up. It seems that, yes, even your bike does still have the M6x20 bolts on the lower fairing.
220 220C0620 SCREW-PAN-CROS,6X20,BLACK

People rarely take off the upper without detaching the lower, so it remains a recipe for exactly the mix-up I was talking about. I can't think of any reason to use those instead of the 18mm fairing bolts:
92009A 92009-1663 SCREW,6X18

I went back and edited it for clarity.

[Slono]

I think both manufacturers have made a successful motorcycle. Even if people start on the 250 and upgrade to 500, there's going to be people who start on a 300 and eventually go 600+. This whole post is comparing apples to oranges. As it stands, there are a ton of female riders who ride the Ninjette out of necessity because of their physical limitations, and seeing as how the 300 is smaller than the 500, it will be a big seller among smaller people.

If you raced these bikes, the 500 would always win because its a different class...

[gt_turbo]

250R seat height 30.5". CBR500R seat height 31". pretty much negligible. i'm sure there will be many new bikers picking up a CBR500R off the bat.

and for those complaining about hp being too low for a 500cc. honda has not yet officially released the hp numbers for the US spec 500R, so there might be some extra ponies yet to come due to our emissions being more lax than europes.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Sorry. I wasn't sure what part of the fairing the 20mm bolt comes from because mine have been thoroughly mixed up by the previous owners so I just looked it up. It seems that, yes, even your bike does still have the M6x20 bolts on the lower fairing

The tank bolts use a hex key. The 2 for the fairing use a screw driver. If you get those mixed up and puncture a tank, blame yourself, not Kawasaki.

If you use 18's in the lower 2 chin fairing holes, it doesn't like to catch the threads because it's not long enough to make it through the little rubber thing in the fairing. I've tried shimming the right side out a bit to clear my exhaust better, and 2 washers that were 1mm thick made the screws so it was barely able to be threaded. Therefore, Kawasaki could not use 18mm long screws there. The 20mm screws are needed in those locations.

I just don't see what you're all uppity about here.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The tank bolts use a hex key. The 2 for the fairing use a screw driver. If you get those mixed up and puncture a tank, blame yourself, not Kawasaki.

If you use 18's in the lower 2 chin fairing holes, it doesn't like to catch the threads because it's not long enough to make it through the little rubber thing in the fairing. I've tried shimming the right side out a bit to clear my exhaust better, and 2 washers that were 1mm thick made the screws so it was barely able to be threaded. Therefore, Kawasaki could not use 18mm long screws there. The 20mm screws are needed in those locations.

I just don't see what you're all uppity about here.

I see. Now, I've never even had an upper fairing on my pregens to secure with an incorrect bolt in the first place, so all I knew was what I heard here and elsewhere over and over before. I'm actually relieved someone who knows finally disputed it for the record because it restores my faith in Kawi a little bit. There aren't any other M6x20 hex-cap bolts, are there? Windscreen? Mirrors? Side fairings?

[KawiKid860]

I just wanna point out that the CBR500s powerband looks incredibly boring. You mentioned the Ninja 650 felt like riding an appliance, well I'd wager the 500 will feel like riding a less powerful appliance. It's all smooth and what not, which is probably nice just plain old commuting and stuff, but you don't get that 7,000 or so rpm kick that throws you back like a 250/300 or ninja 500 (please remind me how ugly my bike is again ) or 600+ SS bike. I was considering the CBR500 as an "upgrade" to my good ol ninja but I'd be giving up precious horsepower for.. not much if anything at all. It just seems like the Ninja 300 would be a more fun bike to ride over all, and be a nice bump in power and refinement to the 250. I also +1 the SV650 though, I've never ridden one but its definitely on my list of bikes to consider getting

[adouglas]

Your bike is ugly.

I had one, btw… an 89 EX500 in candy red/pearl white with pink (yes, pink) stripes.

The 80s were f'ed up.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by CZroe

There aren't any other M6x20 hex-cap bolts, are there? Windscreen? Mirrors? Side fairings?

Not to my knowledge.

I still don't think it's Kawasaki's fault here. They can't idiot-proof an entire motorcycle by specific sizes of bolts for specific locations on the bike. There's just too many bolts on that bike.

[choneofakind]

Nothing is ever as good as a ninja 500

[Kurosaki]

Ride red

HONDA

[mania]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

I just wanna point out that the CBR500s powerband looks incredibly boring.

That is true & due to the square engine it has.
Bore & Stroke of the 500 is 67.0 x 66.8
Basically what we call a square engine.

aka: non reving torque oriented engine. Good for some but
not what many sport riders like

A good indication is always what is the final number of b/s
In this Honda 500 engines case 67.0/66.8= 1.0

Look at a Ninja 300 ...Bore 62 Stroke 49
62/49= 1.26

Usually anything 1 & below is considered a torque oriented bike

Panigale is 112 x 60.8 = 1.84 definitely designed for horsepower & revs like 12,000 rpm.

Or a Honda 600RR is 67/42.5= 1.59

[Ryephile]

I got to sit on the CBR500R at the Motorcycle show yesterday. This is just subjective and static, but the 500 felt like it was noticeably heavier and had a higher CG. The seat height may be similar to the ninjette, but it seemed oh so slightly wider, which may be a negative for skinny people. Other than that, the ergonomics seemed close with perhaps a tiny bit more reach, but nothing like a Gixxer, let alone an R6.

The 500 looked better in the flesh than it does in pictures; it looks more "real" and less cheap than I expected. Overall I thought the CBR500R was a good bike, but I don't have any remorse in getting my 300.


[....that KTM 690 Duke, OTOH, is absolutely in my future.]

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

I just wanna point out that the CBR500s powerband looks incredibly boring.

blasphemer

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

Ride red

HONDA

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CZroe

There are a couple in the undertail and a couple in the headlight that the PO likely never replaced. I'd be interested in what they look like if you ever have a look! I hope Kawi fixed the issue, but my last clutch cable was ordered in 2011 and it rotted almost instantly.

Another bit of faith restored:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=12
I started researching and found that Kawasaki updated all the old parts diagrams and now the same part number that was always used for the two exposed windscreen rubber wellnuts (the only two that didn't rot) are substituted throughout the diagram. You can look at the old Cornwall Kawasaki EX250K parts fiche to see what ours used to look like.

This silent update also explains why there were so many reports of 20mm fairing bolts accidentally getting mixed up with the tank bolts and yet even the oldest diagrams only showed 18mm tank/fairing bolts. A little more faith restored.

I'd still like to see an acknowledgement of the CDI tach issue with out-of-warranty replacements, but that's asking too much I guess. :P

[psych0hans]

Soooooo.... Don't expect anything drastic from a new exhaust on the 500... The 2 bros unit is out and here are the results... I guess @Alex was spot on with his observation.

Eliminate 5.5 pounds of weight from your bike
Add 2 horsepower at 5600 RPM
Increase 2 ft-lbs of torque at 3500 RPM
Add 1.5 horsepower at Peak RPM
Increase 1 ft-lb of torque at Peak Torque


Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/industry_n...#ixzz2TQyUfpzy

[Jiggles]

Boo!

I wanted the 500 to be more competitive to the ninja 300. There's still a decision to be made but it isn't the clearcut choice I was hoping it would be. I'd really like to ride one but it just doesn't jump out at me.

[psych0hans]

Soooo.... I'm thinking someone needs to increase the bore of the engine and make it a proper stoker like the 2fiddy... Lol

[Alex]

Other way around. It's the long stroke that it has already that is limiting revs.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by Alex

Other way around. It's the long stroke that it has already that is limiting revs.

Yeah, I realised after I saw the Daytona 675 review, where they state how it revs more because of the shorter stroke and larger bore... Thanks for pointing it out

[choneofakind]

Hans, that's a slip-on. It also says nothing about fuel delivery adjustment. I still think more is possible.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

Soooooo.... Don't expect anything drastic from a new exhaust on the 500... The 2 bros unit is out and here are the results... I guess @Alex was spot on with his observation.

Eliminate 5.5 pounds of weight from your bike
Add 2 horsepower at 5600 RPM
Increase 2 ft-lbs of torque at 3500 RPM
Add 1.5 horsepower at Peak RPM
Increase 1 ft-lb of torque at Peak Torque


Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/industry_n...#ixzz2TQyUfpzy

I can see those results with just dropping on an exhaust with no tuning.
But its still very underwhelming...

eta: nm, its a slip on...

[gt_turbo]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Hans, that's a slip-on. It also says nothing about fuel delivery adjustment. I still think more is possible.

This. Still more potential power to be unlocked. No air mods mentioned either.

And as far as the 500's low revs vs the high revs of the 300. The 500 wins all day imo, because it gets into the power band pretty much right away. U don't have to crank WOT, sip a cup of tea while waiting for the ninja to get up to it's power band, ok 9-10k rpm feel the power turning on then it's done at like 12k. The 500's power band makes it so much more streetable than the ninja. Also on the track, that power would be awesome coming out the turns vs the ninja.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Hans, that's a slip-on. It also says nothing about fuel delivery adjustment. I still think more is possible.

Yeah, My bad...

[Toly]

http://rideapart.com/2013/05/rideapa...honda-cbr500r/

[backinthesaddleagain]

that new 500 is a sharp looking bike. i was at my local dealer's open house and saw one late in the day when we were pushing bikes back in to the showroom. didn't notice it earlier due to the pannigale, s1000rr and rc8r ktm that kept itching me to sit on them.

[Darling Ninja]

http://bit.ly/17wXSoT