Downshifting Problems

[Neoki]

Okay so, I have been riding for about a year now but I have to admit I still don't think I have downshifting down at all.

I don't downshift until 5kish RPM and I've been told two things to do while downshifting

1. Do not blip the throttle, just pull in the clutch, downshift, and release. This method feels really rough and jerky most of the time (kind of pushes me forward) and I'm wondering if it's too hard on the engine.

2. Try and rev the throttle as you release the clutch after the down shift. Honestly with this I usually am downshifting because I need to slow down and I don't think I can find the right amount of throttle to give it because the shift is either too much or not very smooth at all (maybe releasing the clutch too slow? How fast would you say to release it using this method?)

Up shifting is fine I think (Usually shift at 8-12k RPM) and is smooth.

Any help would be awesome, I feel really comfortable on my bike and with most basic maneuvers on it. But this problem with downshifting is really frustrating

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Neoki

1. Do not blip the throttle, just pull in the clutch, downshift, and release. This method feels really rough and jerky most of the time (kind of pushes me forward) and I'm wondering if it's too hard on the engine.

2. Try and rev the throttle as you release the clutch after the down shift. Honestly with this I usually am downshifting because I need to slow down and I don't think I can find the right amount of throttle to give it because the shift is either too much or not very smooth at all (maybe releasing the clutch too slow? How fast would you say to release it using this method?)

Up shifting is fine I think (Usually shift at 8-12k RPM) and is smooth.

Any help would be awesome, I feel really comfortable on my bike and with most basic maneuvers on it. But this problem with downshifting is really frustrating

I don't usually blip unless I'm just doin it for the fun of blipping. Remember, when you're leaving from a stop, your clutch isn't an on/off deal... you feather it out smoothly. Do this when you're releasing the clutch lever during down shifts too. Try it different RPM's as well (I think I don't get down to 5k much unless I'm stopping) You'll feel less jerky

[Jankee]

neoki, i had the exact same problem with my new bike the first couple of days...it takes a while to get the feel for it, usually when i'm coming up to a stop sign or light i keep constant pressure on the front break and rear break until the rpms are like 3-4k then i start to downshift. it goes really quickly something like clutch in, ds, ci, ds, ci, di, ci, di until i get to 1st. Engine breaking is not necessarily a bad thing i have heard, but that "forward lurch" can be a little disconcerning at times...ive definitely been there...

[captlombardi]

Are we talking downshifting for a turn or downshifting to come to a stop? Most of the time when coming to a stop I will pull the clutch and coast to the red light/stop sign etc. and gradually shift down until I am <10 mph, then put it into 1st. You don't want to jump down to first when you're moving too fast, it makes a clunk sound that I think means the transmission isn't too happy.

If you want to engine brake then you should be rev-matching with each gear you go down. At a given speed the engine rpm will be higher when in a lower gear, so to avoid that "lurch" you are talking about you should give the throttle a blip before you release the clutch. This is better on your clutch and drivetrain in general.

Letting the clutch out without rev matching is a bad habit and is NOT recommended on a bigger bike without a slipper clutch. Doing it in the really high rpms can throw you from the bike or make your rear tire come out in a turn because the "lurch" is so severe.

Lastly engine braking isn't really going to kill your engine, but you shouldn't use it to slow down so much. That's what brakes are for!

Other veterans please correct me if I'm wrong above.

[dubojr1]

I blip the throttle and in turn have smooth downshifts. This also keeps me in a RPM range where I am ready to accelerate again if needed. The blip and downshift is fast and is something that should come with seat time.

How much seat time (mileage) do you have for the year you have clocked?

[tjkamper]

If you are not blipping the throttle take a long time to let out the clutch when slowing. This will help to smooth things out.

With the ninjette bliping is not necessary, but it does help to make things smoother if you do it right.

Engine braking is not going to hurt your bike. It is the same thing as taking your foot off of the accelerator in your car and coasting to reduce speed.

[Neoki]

Originally Posted by tjkamper

With the ninjette bliping is not necessary, but it does help to make things smoother if you do it right.

Would it be a good habit to get into then? Although there are no plans on getting a bigger bike, is it required on others?

[tjkamper]

It is a good habbit to be in. If you have a larger engine and do not blip the throttle to match the revs, you COULD cause a rear wheel skid. My old pick-up would do this. In four wheels it is no big deal, but in two it can be devistatingly dangerous.

(remember I said "could" not will).

[nosro]

Originally Posted by Neoki

...

2. Try and rev the throttle as you release the clutch after the down shift. Honestly with this I usually am downshifting because I need to slow down and I don't think I can find the right amount of throttle to give it because the shift is either too much or not very smooth at all (maybe releasing the clutch too slow? How fast would you say to release it using this method?)...

I have been riding for a grand total of 5 months. Unless I am certain that I am coming to a complete stop, I throttle-blip downshift at all downshifts. (If I am certain that I am coming to a stop, I just coast with the clutch disengaged and downshift every 10mph or so.)

Blipping the throttle while downshifting is not as hard as it sounds. Practice it. You don't need to be precise or hold the throttle open. You just learn to give the throttle a little kick while you pull the clutch in. To give you an idea, aim for approximately 25% throttle blip. The entire throttle blip should be 1/3 of a second - 0 to 25% back to 0 in 1/3 of a second. Even if done poorly, its better than not doing it at all.

Realistically, I think that one learns to do this as a few quick simultaneous operations:
1) simultaneously pull clutch, push down on shifter, and open throttle
2) simultaneously release clutch, release shifter, and release throttle

[Neoki]

thanks, all of this is really helpful. cant wait to get out of work and practice

[alex.s]

i learned throttle blipping in my car (since it has a ****** tranny and wont downshift+brake without it)... it might be easier to learn on a car since you dont have to worry about breaking loose on the rear...
i don't know why anyone would blip as you're engaging the clutch... i would think that would make the bike jump forward too much when you're trying to stop IMO and cause too much weight transfer back and forth. i blip just before i begin engaging the clutch so that right as it starts engaging, theres no throttle on and the RPMs are just starting to drop... just my take i guess.

good luck

[lockie]

I also learned blipping or double clutching in a car. You let out the clutch for an instant while the transmission is going through neutral as you shift gears. On those old high revving 4 cylinder engines it made shifting easier and kept the revs up into the good torque range.

It became a matter of getting the rhythm of it and the same rhythm works on the bike although you obviously don't double clutch.

[JeffM]

When I blip and downshift I only use two fingers on the clutch and the rest are on the grip. This way your fingers act as a "stop" and will not let the clutch all the way in.

Motorcycle clutches are not like car clutches. They are made to be slipped. There is no need to completely de-clutch when shifting. Use that friction zone to your advantage.

Watch Rich Alexander's clutch work and notice how lightly he uses the clutch:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[BlueRaven]

I noticed he's not using the clutch to upshift. How does he do that? Just lay off the throttle when he upshifts?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by BlueRaven

I noticed he's not using the clutch to upshift. How does he do that?

as you're pushing the shift lever up (or down if its gp style), drop the throttle a bit until it engages. for going down, blip the throttle up until it engages while holding the shifter.

[Hadyn]

I'm also trying to learn downshifting, and I think the biggest help to me has just been listening to the engine and trying to keep the sound as consistent as possible.

Here's a little MS-paint graph I made that's probably incredibly over-exaggerated, entirely not-to-scale and very likely wrong, but it's how I see blipping, if you're looking at RPMs over time:

(Forgive my ten-o'clock-in-the-morning-and-drawing-on-a-touchpad artistic skills.)
Is that at least somewhat in the ballpark?

[komohana]

i'became a blipper through progression via rev-matching
i use the engine to slow the bike coming to a stop which i think personally this bike does well, and blipping for braking works fine for me
practice and keep it smooth

[Apex]

The first time I did clutchless upshifts was when I purchased my first bike. I was riding it home (complete newb) and had pressure on the shifter. I heard about the shifting method and knew how to do it, just never did it. Cut off the gas real quick, it clicked into gear, and then I became hooked.

Downshifting is something I never bothered learning until I really became interested in track days. I knew I'd need to know it to slow down and keep things smooth. I gave it a try, and within a week I had it down pat. The key for me was mastering the "blip" and the front brake work. It really is an art. Now I do it everywhere I go, no matter if I'm playing around or just cruising. I do it out of habit now. Needless to say I can stop the bike dang quick now and will have it in a proper gear if I need to punch it for some reason.

[kkim]

more input...
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21988

[miks]

Well I use 2 fingers on the front brake while rev-matching when downshifting. Keeps things nice and smooth.

[Talonne]

Originally Posted by miks

Well I use 2 fingers on the front brake while rev-matching when downshifting. Keeps things nice and smooth.

Do you have a picture/video or something that shows how this is done? I can't really picture how to operate the throttle AND the front brake simultaneously, unless I'm simply just letting go of the throttle altogether... A little bit of a turn and my fingers don't even reach the brake anymore.

[JeffM]

Sport Rider Article on blipping

And some photos swiped from the Internet - Google is your friend.

Grip before braking



Grip while braking



Overhead shot

[Alex]