Help with engine knocking.

[cpayton0]

So background I have a 07 ninja 250 with 6k miles. Was riding with some friends and when I took off from a u turn I hit redline and felt a slight pop, but didn't notice anything wrong. Pulled off into a restaurant and we ate when leaving I did it again hit redline this time it was clear there was an issue Because the bike wouldn't go passed 3k rpm without sounding like the engine was going to fly apart. pulled over check oil and was at low mark, filled oil smoothed out the knock a bit but still bad. Took it to a shop they said it's probably broken connecting rod or crankshaft but wanted 528 to take apart and another 528 to put back together plus whatever parts. So I took it home and started the work myself. But have no real idea what I'm looking at. I've rebuilt forks, carbs, calipers, and starters plenty of times as well as worked on my own timing and valves. So I'm sure I can do this just need some direction. Was told by a friend I'd have to replace pistons &rings and that should solve the issue but I want other opinions before I do anything also shop said they ran compression test and that it was fine but can't be sure they actually did it

[Triple Jim]

Hi Cameron, welcome to the board. That's some odd flaky carbon on your pistons, but otherwise I don't see anything that's broken except maybe one of the piston skirts looks strange on the side view photo. Are all four skirts OK? If there's an internal problem, maybe it's farther down in the bottom end.

[cpayton0]

Yeah the carbon is on pretty thick No damage to skirts but just below the wrist pin, you can see in second image there is a chip taken out.

[Triple Jim]

It's blurry, but that looks like the notch that's purposely there to let you get the circlip out.

[cpayton0]

No not that I'll post better photos, upon inspection this morning I noticed a Nick in the skirt on piston 1 same pistion has the Nick taken out below the wrist pin. Piston 2 no visible damage I can see. But the cylinder 2 has a chip in the bottom wall.

[jkv45]

Are you sure that the engine has only 6000 mi on it? That's a lot of carbon build-up for that few of miles.

How does that type of damage even happen?

We had a beat 1990 Ninja with 20K on it that had gas that looked like water and oil that looked like gas when we got it (for $150), and it ran another 4000 mi mostly over 10,000 RPMs without a hick-up.

Just seems strange.

[Triple Jim]

Further disassembly should uncover what happened.

[cpayton0]

Yeah I'm sure it's at 6 it had 4k when I bought it in January of this year it's been in a storage unit for 7 years with 2nd owner who originally bought it for trips back and fourth to fort Myers/Florida keys but decided to get a different bike and first owner didn't ride it much was a 60 year old man who bought it for someone else, I rode from January till March then it sat till July when I had the money to rebuild my forks,carb, and caliper. Then end of August it when I had the problems start and I'm just now getting around to trying to fix it.

[bob706]

any debris in the oil?

[cpayton0]

Originally Posted by bob706

any debris in the oil?

Nope oil had nothing in it according to shop guy.

[DannoXYZ]

If rod's not broken, what impacted the bottom of cylinder and piston to make those notches?

That might be the pop you heard. Pieces of it is probably in oil-pan.

And engine-speed is controlled by throttle, hitting redline can be prevented.

[cpayton0]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

If rod's not broken, what impacted the bottom of cylinder and piston to make those notches?

That might be the pop you heard. Pieces of it is probably in oil-pan.

And engine-speed is controlled by throttle, hitting redline can be prevented.

Going to dig down deeper tomorrow to see if i find anything, and yes the redline was me being careless and not paying attention just trying to catch up with my friends.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by cpayton0

Going to dig down deeper tomorrow to see if i find anything, and yes the redline was me being careless and not paying attention just trying to catch up with my friends.

I would be VERY interested in pulling the filter screen in the bottom of the sump. You could have a pile of scrap metal in there. From the looks of the rings and upper piston sides I suspect this engine has been severely over heated or it was run on vegetable oil.

Bill

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by cpayton0

Going to dig down deeper tomorrow to see if i find anything, and yes the redline was me being careless and not paying attention just trying to catch up with my friends.

Running into the red shouldn't be a problem if the engine is properly adjusted, fully warm, and the oil is correct and up to the right level.

They run all day long at redline at the track, and our was over 10,000 most of the time. Something else caused the problem - I just can't think of what would cause that type of damage.

[cpayton0]

So finally took a look on my day off when i wasnt tired and frustrated and found that #1 rod bearing is shot, i found some wear starting on my cam lobes a chip out of my #2 cylinder wall probably what was hitting the pistons, so im not even sure what other damage is there so ive decided to just buy a running engine on ebay. Thanks for everyones advice

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by cpayton0

So finally took a look on my day off when i wasnt tired and frustrated and found that #1 rod bearing is shot, i found some wear starting on my cam lobes a chip out of my #2 cylinder wall probably what was hitting the pistons, so im not even sure what other damage is there so ive decided to just buy a running engine on ebay. Thanks for everyones advice

Good idea. You'll also have a-lot of spare parts.

Bill

[DannoXYZ]

Look up #2 rod-bearing failures on Porsche 951s. Probably some common themes. I'm installing oil-,pressure gauge on my track bike; suspect i'm losing oil-pressure due to heat. Motorex oil is one of the better oils to use to combat this.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

Look up #2 rod-bearing failures on Porsche 951s. Probably some common themes. I'm installing oil-,pressure gauge on my track bike; suspect i'm losing oil-pressure due to heat. Motorex oil is one of the better oils to use to combat this.

I think that it's nearly impossible to overheat a Ninja. At least a 2007. I have 3" of radiator blocked off and a 193 degree thermostat and on a 65 degree day I'm lucky to run at 175 degrees. On an 85 degree day I'll run 190.

An oil pressure gauge is always a good idea.

Bill

[DannoXYZ]

I'm seeing over 220-F when at track on 120-F days on my 2008. It's the peaks that hurts, doesn't matter if it runs 190 all other times. Well, it's below 200 maybe 5% of the time.

Seeing if a larger radiator would help. As it is now, I change oil every 10-hrs and did rod-bearings at beginning of season as preventative measure. Going to change them over winter, will be interesting to see how worn they are.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by cpayton0

So finally took a look on my day off when i wasnt tired and frustrated and found that #1 rod bearing is shot, i found some wear starting on my cam lobes a chip out of my #2 cylinder wall probably what was hitting the pistons, so im not even sure what other damage is there so ive decided to just buy a running engine on ebay. Thanks for everyones advice

Be very careful on what type of oil you use. Full-synthetic is minimum. I know a lot of people with cruisers and touring bikes use regular auto dino oil, but this is a high-revving engine that can shear oil and beats it up much more than lower-stress engines.

[Triple Jim]

Oh I don't know about full synthetic being required. The owner's manual specifies 10w-40 with any of the usual specs like SE through SL that meet JASO MA, and that works fine for me. If you prefer synthetic, that's fine too.

[jkv45]

If you are at the track, full synthetic oil is cheap insurance in my mind. Synthetic can handle higher temps than conventional oil without losing viscosity.

Running 220F oil temp shouldn't be a problem. "Normal" oil temp (the temp the high range is rated at) is 212F. Synthetic can go way past that.

"Synthetic" is a general term, and there are lower level Group IIIs like Rotella T6 up to Group V Ester-based. The high-end has advantages, but even the lower end Group III oils are superior to conventional oil in almost every way - and not that much more expensive.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by jkv45

If you are at the track, full synthetic oil is cheap insurance in my mind. Synthetic can handle higher temps than conventional oil without losing viscosity.

Running 220F oil temp shouldn't be a problem. "Normal" oil temp (the temp the high range is rated at) is 212F. Synthetic can go way past that.

"Synthetic" is a general term, and there are lower level Group IIIs like Rotella T6 up to Group V Ester-based. The high-end has advantages, but even the lower end Group III oils are superior to conventional oil in almost every way - and not that much more expensive.

Who cares if the oil you use costs $20.00/quart? It only uses 1.7 quarts. If you don't run the best oil you can get your hands on at the track get out of racing - you can't afford it.

Bill

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

Be very careful on what type of oil you use. Full-synthetic is minimum. I know a lot of people with cruisers and touring bikes use regular auto dino oil, but this is a high-revving engine that can shear oil and beats it up much more than lower-stress engines.

Terrible idea, mostly because the current auto oil does not have adequate amount of the additives (Zinc and Phosphorus or "ZDDP") that a cycle engine requires to prevent damage to the cams/rockers (high pressure areas) in certain conditions.

Not worth risking it. Diesel oils (Rotella, Delvac, etc) have the proper levels and are safe to use in a cycle engine with a "solid" (non-roller) valvetrain.

[DannoXYZ]

Yes, HDEO are much better. Although low ZDDP was primarily in SL and SM oils (many old cars died on those). Levels were raised in SN along with new EP/ET additives. This also varied by oil-weight as well. Certain Mobil-1 weights didn't drop ZDDP levels much even in the SL/SM era. Probably because it was factory-recommended oil by Porsche.

[Triple Jim]

And I understand that 20W-50 oils were never under the restrictions for ZDDP, etc..

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

And I understand that 20W-50 oils were never under the restrictions for ZDDP, etc..

Never heard that, but that's a Big Twin thing.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Never heard that, but that's a Big Twin thing.

My 250's owner's manual says 20W-50 is good from 32F on up, and 20W-50 or 10W-50 should be used if the ambient temperature is over 104F. I don't ride when it's below 32F, so that means 20W-50 is good for me any time.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

My 250's owner's manual says 20W-50 is good from 32F on up, and 20W-50 or 10W-50 should be used if the ambient temperature is over 104F. I don't ride when it's below 32F, so that means 20W-50 is good for me any time.

The Kawasaki Service Manual recommends SAE 10W-40, 10W-50, 20W-40 or 20W-50. Grade SE or SF. I'm running Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40. For what it's worth.

Bill

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

I'm seeing over 220-F when at track on 120-F days on my 2008. It's the peaks that hurts, doesn't matter if it runs 190 all other times. Well, it's below 200 maybe 5% of the time.

Seeing if a larger radiator would help. As it is now, I change oil every 10-hrs and did rod-bearings at beginning of season as preventative measure. Going to change them over winter, will be interesting to see how worn they are.

I don't believe it's ever hit 120 degrees F here in Michigan. The highest my engine temperature has gotten is 200 degrees and that's in traffic on a 90+ degree day. When I hit 200 degrees I turn on the cooling fan until I hit open road again.

Bill

[Triple Jim]

200-220F isn't hot anyway. High performance air cooled engines run in the mid 200s just fine. Passenger cars regularly run over the boiling point of the coolant.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

My 250's owner's manual says 20W-50 is good from 32F on up, and 20W-50 or 10W-50 should be used if the ambient temperature is over 104F. I don't ride when it's below 32F, so that means 20W-50 is good for me any time.

Ya - I know what it says. Why 10W-50 and not 20W-50 over 104F? That doesn't even make sense. Good luck finding a 10W-50.

That's based on "old school" thinking and conventional oil. It's a safety net because when conventional oil breaks down it drops to the low (W) end of the range. Running an oil with a high "W" rating guarantees adequate oil pressure if break down occurs. A leftover from the air-cooled days.

You are way ahead running a synthetic like Rotella T6 5W-40 year round. High temps are not a concern, and a thinner oil moves heat away faster than a heavier oil.

A water-cooled engine should not have any trouble keeping operating temps in the safe range even in the hottest temps. Both water and oil run over 200F normally.

Many top race bikes in Drag Racing and Land Speed Racing are running synthetic 0-weight oil while making over 200 HP while running wide open in hot temps for miles at a time.

Do as you like, but there is no advantage to heavier oil that builds excess oil pressure and moves slower. You are also working harder to push it through the engine.

[Triple Jim]

I'm running the 10W-40 recommended in the manual. Since the ZDDP thing was brought up, I was saying that 20W-50 would solve that possible problem. I know you like expensive oil, Jay, and I certainly won't try to convince you to use anything else.

If you did want to buy some 10W-50 oil for some reason, it's not hard to find with an Internet search.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I'm running the 10W-40 recommended in the manual. Since the ZDDP thing was brought up, I was saying that 20W-50 would solve that possible problem. I know you like expensive oil, Jay, and I certainly won't try to convince you to use anything else.

If you did want to buy some 10W-50 oil for some reason, it's not hard to find with an Internet search.

I don't know what my Ninja's coolant temperature was running in stock form. I have installed a Thermo Bob 3 with a 193 degree thermostat and blocked-off 3" of my radiator. On a 93 degree day I might hit 185 degrees. The maker of my Thermo Bob 3 likes 200 - 205 degrees coolant temperature. He suspects my new thermostat may be malfunctioning and offered me a replacement. I have a brand new spare 193 degree thermostat I bought when I installed the TB3 but I'll be damned if I'm pulling the bodywork and tank to install a new thermostat.

I think this 200+ degree coolant temperature is a result of the early 70s Detroit vs E.P.A. emissions battle. Detroit liked 220 degrees because it helped them meet early emissions standards. 180 was good enough for my dad and so too with me. I'll bet the average 250 here in the Northeast is running stock at about 120- 125 degrees coolant temperature. That is not a healthy temperature for any engine.

Bill

[Triple Jim]

Cylinder wear goes down as operating temperature increases. Graphs of cylinder wear vs. temperature show it's still falling at 200F, so that's another advantage of staying over 200. Getting hot enough to get the oil to 215 or 220 at least once in a while gets rid of moisture in the oil.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Cylinder wear goes down as operating temperature increases. Graphs of cylinder wear vs. temperature show it's still falling at 200F, so that's another advantage of staying over 200. Getting hot enough to get the oil to 215 or 220 at least once in a while gets rid of moisture in the oil.

Good points. Thanks.

Bill

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Ya - I know what it says. Why 10W-50 and not 20W-50 over 104F? That doesn't even make sense. Good luck finding a 10W-50.

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I'm running the 10W-40 recommended in the manual. Since the ZDDP thing was brought up, I was saying that 20W-50 would solve that possible problem. I know you like expensive oil, Jay, and I certainly won't try to convince you to use anything else.

If you did want to buy some 10W-50 oil for some reason, it's not hard to find with an Internet search.

Yeah, very common in Europe and OZ. Most oil-vendors have a +10 grade for demanding applications. So regular 10w40 or 20w50 has a 10w50 and 20w60 motorsports version.

When under heat and shear stress, oil is no longer at its rated hot-end 50 weight. It's more like 20 or 30 weight. I had problems with heat-induced oil-pressure drops on Triumph triple couple years ago. The only oil that didn't thin out under stress and lose pressure was Motorex.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Cylinder wear goes down as operating temperature increases. Graphs of cylinder wear vs. temperature show it's still falling at 200F, so that's another advantage of staying over 200. Getting hot enough to get the oil to 215 or 220 at least once in a while gets rid of moisture in the oil.

Right. Most of the time you hear of people wanting their engine to run cooler - not hotter - and most of the time that's not the best direction.

My point with the 20W-50 comments were in the same vein. Most people think heavier oil is better, when most of the time it's the opposite.

The lower-temp thing most likely came from the days when big air-cooled engines needed more cooling, but still continues today even though it's no longer a problem with water-cooling. Some designs, like the Ninja's, take too long for the engine to come up to operating temp, and keep the coolant temp too low.

Again - same with the heavier oil. It was required back-in-the-day when air-cooled engines would overheat and breakdown the conventional oil. No longer an issue with water-cooling and synthetic oil - but it still continues...

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Right. Most of the time you hear of people wanting their engine to run cooler - not hotter - and most of the time that's not the best direction.

My point with the 20W-50 comments were in the same vein. Most people think heavier oil is better, when most of the time it's the opposite.

The lower-temp thing most likely came from the days when big air-cooled engines needed more cooling, but still continues today even though it's no longer a problem with water-cooling. Some designs, like the Ninja's, take too long for the engine to come up to operating temp, and keep the coolant temp too low.

Again - same with the heavier oil. It was required back-in-the-day when air-cooled engines would overheat and breakdown the conventional oil. No longer an issue with water-cooling and synthetic oil - but it still continues...

You folks might find this article interesting. I think the Offenhauser engine runs straight 50 wt. oil.

http://home.earthlink.net/~roygmisc1...tartoffy1.html

Bill

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Again - same with the heavier oil. It was required back-in-the-day when air-cooled engines would overheat and breakdown the conventional oil. No longer an issue with water-cooling and synthetic oil - but it still continues...

Instances of overheating, low oil-pressure and inadequate lubrication are still occurring with modern engines, as evidenced by this thread. Sure, it may be happening only a fraction of the frequency of earlier air-cooled engines, but no means completely eradicated.

In that regard, why would you want to run an inadequate oil that doesn't provide sufficient lubrication for your engine during the emergency times when you really need it? Sure, 99% of the time, the extra overhead won't be needed, but that 1% when it occurs will destroy your engine.

Also don't get cold-start viscosity and cold-start flow mixed up with warmed-up engine requirements. Why settle for "good enough" when "way, way better" is available?