got on that 400r today

[ScorpionNinja]

Originally Posted by bdavison

I dont think its an issue of insurance.
What I think most americans would like is a bike with around 50HP, and more superbike ergonomics and looks.

Kawasaki hit a home run with the newer 250R in my book, but they dropped the ball in producing a mid-range bike. Its either the 650R which in my opinion is nothing more than a cruiser with some sporty styling, or going to the ZX-6R which is way more than what we need in a intermediate bike.

And trying to sell a engine that has been sleeved/destroked to 400cc , in a overweight frame like the 650R to an American will be a lesson in futility.

There may be a few folks that will be mislead into thinking its actually an upgrade, but I think for the most part, Americans will do the research into specs, and quickly find that it fails miserably in comparison to even the 250R.

i agree with most of this, but as far as a mid-range bike... thats what the 500R was supposed to be. sales of the 500 sucked, so 06' kawi came out with the new 650R. So hopefully the new 400cc will either be a mini-ZX6R, Pure 400c Racing type of style and "non-comfort" in the seat, or a mini-650R, with sporty styling/better comfortable seat & passenger seat-footpegs/ a 400cc "all-around-sportbike".

I think thats what kawi meant for the roles of 650R/ER-6n/Versys! Those bikes arent "supersports", to be ridden like a AMA racer 100% of the time!

As far as "upgrade" goes... what do you really mean?

I think you want a true "sportbike" that is sporty styling with a mix of more HP (50HP is pretty good for a set up from a 250R, yet if your not ready for the ZX-6R), so basically you wanna see a "ZX-4R" (Ditto for me! ) to fill the role of people looking for a upgrade in POWER from the 250R, but want to keep with the "sportbike aspect", that arent ready for the Power of the ZX-6R, who dont like the "Relaxed,upright,cruising riding position" of the 650/er6n/versys.

So, back to them making a 650R Frame, with a 400cc engine in place... i agree that its not a good idea!!! Its like Dodge making a Challenger with either a HEMI or V6? What??? Defeats the purpose of that, being a Muscle car... screw the V6. Screw the 400cc on a heavy 650 frame.

Maybe a new version of a 500cc engine in place of the 650cc on a 650R frame, might be ideal for the rider that wants more power then the 250R, but more over-all riding comfort! But, yea.. 400cc engine on a 400 lb frame is like sticking a 4 cyl. in a Car-Boat like a old Lincon town car.... the lil motor would strain to move the car and SUCK at MPG.

Now a 400cc engine stuffed on the 250R frame, for more as a means of a upgrade between a Mini- ZX6R, would be sweet. But for someone of my status... I love my 250R, its been great, but my motorcycle lifestyle has changed and a bike like the 650R is a better FIT for me, as its more of a all-around sportbike for me! I ride 2UP alot on mine with my GF on group rides and just us 2. Ive grown more into a "touring" type rider and i JUST CANT AFFORD the Kawi Concourse 14, for a Near Perfect fit to my motorcycle usage/style!

The 250R ISNT a ideal Long distance Trip bike, unless your ass lets you ride 800 miles on one sitting on that 250 between butt breaks! 2UP on the 250R, ive found is 2x as tiring vs solo riding.

So... if kawi makes a 250R but with a 400cc engine... but keeps the bikes "sportbike" style and position, it wont be an "upgrade" for me, where the 09-10' Ninja 650R is.

On the other hand, if i could stable 2 bikes, i would have the 650R for my 2UP needs and "touring", while solo riding short trips on bike nights or going to the trackdays, the New 400cc(250R frame) would be SWEEET!!!!

Sorry for a long-sometimes-jumping-around topic, but... those are my

*edit... wait i re-read what you said... lol i screwed up in my rambling! lol

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by ScorpionNinja

So hopefully the new 400cc will either be a mini-ZX6R, Pure 400c Racing type of style and "non-comfort" in the seat, or a mini-650R, with sporty styling/better comfortable seat & passenger seat-footpegs/ a 400cc "all-around-sportbike".

*edit... wait i re-read what you said... lol i screwed up in my rambling! lol

Not sure what you mean when you say you screwed up except that it sounds like your talking about hypothetical when you say "hopefully". The new 400cc is not a mini-zx6r. It is the 650r with it's engine sleeved down to 399CCs.

[wyckedflesh]

Something to think about...
The 400R is made for the Japanese Market and Other Countries where either a 400 is the top of a Licensing Tier or an Insurance/Registration Tier. We have neither of those in the US. For me, insurance wise, a 250/400/500/650 are all the same price. My rate (and this is for me now at my age/driving record/location) doesn't increase until I hit the 750cc market (displacement wise).

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by wyckedflesh

Something to think about...
The 400R is made for the Japanese Market and Other Countries where either a 400 is the top of a Licensing Tier or an Insurance/Registration Tier. We have neither of those in the US. For me, insurance wise, a 250/400/500/650 are all the same price. My rate (and this is for me now at my age/driving record/location) doesn't increase until I hit the 750cc market (displacement wise).

Exactly. Which is why they most likely won't bother to sell it here.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by wyckedflesh

Something to think about...
The 400R is made for the Japanese Market and Other Countries where either a 400 is the top of a Licensing Tier or an Insurance/Registration Tier. We have neither of those in the US. For me, insurance wise, a 250/400/500/650 are all the same price. My rate (and this is for me now at my age/driving record/location) doesn't increase until I hit the 750cc market (displacement wise).

I agree. That's why I was wondering what the market would be in the US for this bike. Even with an increase for insurance, I don't think this would generate a high enough customer base to offer it. Unless that insurance was a lot less than a 650. In countries that have tiered licensing, registration, and/or insurance rates, I can see there being a customer base for this bike (especially with licensing as it wouldn't matter how much you could afford). But in the US, I just don't see it. Here, if I want an inexpensive bike with sporty styling and good gas mileage, I would get the 250. If I wanted something bigger, I'd get the 650. Not sure why anyone would choose the 400.

[Flashmonkey]

I was doing some reading on the new-ish BMW F800R that they're selling up here in Canada (but not in the US) and it turns out that Canada seems to get more bikes than the US mostly because the bikes are the eurospec models but with different safety stickers plastered all over it. So it's easier for manufacturers to bring it over to us.

At least that's how it is for BMW. That might explain why Kawi is even bothering to bring the 400r here since the only province that has any kind of performance restriction on motorcycle licenses is Quebec.

[Flashmonkey]

I found a review!

http://www.passionperformance.ca/mot...articles/8590/

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

I found a review!

http://www.passionperformance.ca/mot...articles/8590/

"The Ninja 400R is an exceptional motorcycle, but it has less to do with the machine tested here and more to do with the soundness of the original idea. Yes, the 400’s weight is nearly identical to the 650 that it’s based on, and yes, its price of $7,499 is only $1,200 less than the 650. But it’s not the same machine with a less powerful engine—it’s a better idea that just happens to cost less. What’s not to love? "


Um....yes it is.

[revstriker]

Read the review and I don't understand what the author likes so much about the bike. Sure, compared to the 125 or th 250 it has a better power band. But why would someone choose the 400 over the 650? He says it's a now completed step between "little bikes" and "full size motorcycles". But how is the 650 not that same step? His other comment about this being a bike to recommend to 125 and 250 riders doesn't make sense either. If someone is ready to upgrade, and the 650 is too much for them, then they probably shouldn't be upgrading in the first place.

Oh well. I've still yet to hear an explanation of how a 400 will fit into the market. At least one that I believe.

[Big_Guy]

Originally Posted by caliente103

that would make a nice kit
Posted via Mobile Device

IS that even possible? like an engine swap from 400 into 250r body?

sorry, noob here, but trying to learn :/

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Big_Guy

IS that even possible? like an engine swap from 400 into 250r body?

sorry, noob here, but trying to learn :/

No...it isn't. Even if it was, the chassis and suspension will always be a weak point rending the entire exercise futile haha.

But yes, the author was somewhat optimistic about the 400r, but seeing as how I haven't ridden either the 400r OR the 650r, I'm hardly in a position to compare. What this bike does represent, however, are more options. Options that seem to have been lacking previously. Just like the naked bike boom that we seem to be in the middle of, a future full of sub-middle weight starter bikes is a welcome one IMO.

[ScraitT]

Originally Posted by revstriker

But why would someone choose the 400 over the 650? He says it's a now completed step between "little bikes" and "full size motorcycles". But how is the 650 not that same step?

The 650 does 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and about a 11.9-12.1 quarter mile at 110 mph. That's fast, no matter who you are. Sure 600s and 1000s are faster, but even a 600 barely has a better 0-60.
I don't know times on the 400, but I'd imagine them to be between the 650 and 250. The 400 is really a reasonable upgrade....it has about twice the torque (plus its lower more usable torque) and about 50% more hp.
However, I agree to go from a 250, to 400, to 650 is a bit....well time and cost consuming more then anything.

I can see a market for the 400, but I don't see it as a "stepping" bike. As you mentioned, if you can't go from a 250 to 600, you shouldn't be upgrading. The 650 is fast, but only when you want it to be fast. You should have throttle and clutch control down before you ever upgrade, and if you have the control, the 650 is fine.

The market for the 400 would be two people.
-Those that know they need to start small, but think a 250 is too small, especially bigger people who are cramped and/or pushing the 250s weight limit.
-Those that want a small bike, but would like a bit more power then a 250. Tons of riders love the 250 and have traded larger bikes for it ("downgrading"), because honestly you don;t need the power of a 600. ever. But many people on the 250 wish it had a little bit more when on the highways. The 400 would cover that.


It's a very very small market, but I can see a little bit of a market.

[patw]

I chatted with a dealer who's sold a few of these bikes. He said they're marketing to new riders as an alternative to the 250. He hasn't had any step-down rider sales yet.

[Flashmonkey]

Yea, the jump from a 250 up to a 400 is pretty redundant....but during my demo ride with Honda I got a chance to ride their CB650F, which is marketed as a "next step" bike for their CBR125r riders. Now THAT'S a big jump, seeing as how the 125r is basically a mountain bike with a motor.

I expect a lot of 125r riders to trade in for the 400r.

[Rayme]

wow I think some people will never be happy, lol. If you want a small frame and a 400cc engine, how about a DRZ-400sm? That should fit your need.

[patw]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

THAT'S a big jump, seeing as how the 125r is basically a mountain bike with a motor.

The 125 isn't THAT bad

It feels exactly like the 250 at lower gears, she's just a little torque-impared at the higher gears

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by Reswob

"The Ninja 400R is an exceptional motorcycle, but it has less to do with the machine tested here and more to do with the soundness of the original idea. Yes, the 400’s weight is nearly identical to the 650 that it’s based on, and yes, its price of $7,499 is only $1,200 less than the 650. But it’s not the same machine with a less powerful engine—it’s a better idea that just happens to cost less. What’s not to love? "


Um....yes it is.

Yup

[Anteraan]

Originally Posted by ScraitT

I can see a market for the 400, but I don't see it as a "stepping" bike. As you mentioned, if you can't go from a 250 to 600, you shouldn't be upgrading. The 650 is fast, but only when you want it to be fast. You should have throttle and clutch control down before you ever upgrade, and if you have the control, the 650 is fine.

The market for the 400 would be two people.
-Those that know they need to start small, but think a 250 is too small, especially bigger people who are cramped and/or pushing the 250s weight limit.
-Those that want a small bike, but would like a bit more power then a 250. Tons of riders love the 250 and have traded larger bikes for it ("downgrading"), because honestly you don;t need the power of a 600. ever. But many people on the 250 wish it had a little bit more when on the highways. The 400 would cover that.

It's a very very small market, but I can see a little bit of a market.

I, on the other hand, can see a HUGE worldwide market for a 400...if it was a replacement for the 250. I know I'm going to be accused of heresy here, but hear me out:

- The EX500 made a fantastic first bike for thousands of riders (as did the GS500F).
- The recent 250 owner's surveys show an obvious interest in a 300-350cc replacement
- 400cc is a perfect step in many international insurance/licensing tiers, especially in Europe
- A properly mapped FI 400cc could still be forgiving on the low end, add some torque in the midrange, and give it a top-end that would be stronger than the current 250's.

So, I'm thinking, why not go with one model, a 400cc that could take care of the US and international markets? I'm not referring to the current "nerfed 650", but a whole new bike with a bit less upright riding position. Yes, a 250 version would be needed for some international markets (that licensing/insurance thing again). But this "universal 400" would be a bike I would redline my way to the dealership for, especially if they kept the new-gen 250 styling.

Thoughts?

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Anteraan

I, on the other hand, can see a HUGE worldwide market for a 400...if it was a replacement for the 250. I know I'm going to be accused of heresy here, but hear me out:

- The EX500 made a fantastic first bike for thousands of riders (as did the GS500F).
- The recent 250 owner's surveys show an obvious interest in a 300-350cc replacement
- 400cc is a perfect step in many international insurance/licensing tiers, especially in Europe
- A properly mapped FI 400cc could still be forgiving on the low end, add some torque in the midrange, and give it a top-end that would be stronger than the current 250's.

So, I'm thinking, why not go with one model, a 400cc that could take care of the US and international markets? I'm not referring to the current "nerfed 650", but a whole new bike with a bit less upright riding position. Yes, a 250 version would be needed for some international markets (that licensing/insurance thing again). But this "universal 400" would be a bike I would redline my way to the dealership for, especially if they kept the new-gen 250 styling.

Thoughts?

I don't disagree with the appeal worldwide, especially in countries with tiered licensing and insurance costs. I disagree about the US market though, especially if they are still offering a 250 and a 650 in the same class, and especially when the 400 is almost exactly the same as the 650. Does this mean that there would be no market in the US? No, not exactly. I just don't think the market would be large enough to support it. Especially when you factor in the trade off from the more expensive 650.

Now a re-designed 400 could be a different story.

The other thing I disagree with would be making this bike with a "less upright" riding position. Unless they are purposely limiting themselves to a smaller market, it would be best to keep a more upright position to appeal more to the beginner rider. This is just speculation on my part, but based on how a lot of beginner bikes are made, I think I might be right.

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by revstriker

The other thing I disagree with would be making this bike with a "less upright" riding position. Unless they are purposely limiting themselves to a smaller market, it would be best to keep a more upright position to appeal more to the beginner rider. This is just speculation on my part, but based on how a lot of beginner bikes are made, I think I might be right.

I bet a LOT more people want a sportbike than a faired standard. I think the 250R is too upright.

[BlueRaven]

For someone like me who is only licensed to ride 550cc's or less the only option i have for an upgrade would be the 400 or go with the 500. I would have to go for my "big" bike licence if i go up to the 650 but don't really see why i would.

The only reason i would get the 400 is mainly because its an FI and i don't see the 250 getting that anytime soon.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Reswob

I bet a LOT more people want a sportbike than a faired standard. I think the 250R is too upright.

But would a 400cc sportbike sell in the american market? See that's the million dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.

This 400r is a feeler. I'm assuming if sales are overwhelmingly positive, then an all new bike will eventually be released....possibly by other manufacturers as well. Investing in new product would take tens of millions of dollars and they would need a damn good reason to do so.

Right now they have absolutely no reason to create a new bike from scratch. If I were them I wouldn't chance it either. History is littered with failed attempts at sending over different motorcyle options to the U.S market. Everything from the Honda 919 right up to the SV1000. And you guys wonder why you don't get certain bikes

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

But would a 400cc sportbike sell in the american market? See that's the million dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.

This 400r is a feeler. I'm assuming if sales are overwhelmingly positive, then an all new bike will eventually be released....possibly by other manufacturers as well. Investing in new product would take tens of millions of dollars and they would need a damn good reason to do so.

Right now they have absolutely no reason to create a new bike from scratch. If I were them I wouldn't chance it either. History is littered with failed attempts at sending over different motorcyle options to the U.S market. Everything from the Honda 919 right up to the SV1000. And you guys wonder why you don't get certain bikes

The 919 was awesome. Sad to see it go.

[Anteraan]

Originally Posted by revstriker

I don't disagree with the appeal worldwide, especially in countries with tiered licensing and insurance costs. I disagree about the US market though, especially if they are still offering a 250 and a 650 in the same class, and especially when the 400 is almost exactly the same as the 650. Does this mean that there would be no market in the US? No, not exactly. I just don't think the market would be large enough to support it. Especially when you factor in the trade off from the more expensive 650.

My concept would be a new 400 as a replacement for the 250 (in the US anyway, the 250 continues on internationally). At that point, I'd love to see the 650R turn into a 700cc all-arounder with some sport-touring (read: optional hard bags) capability, not unlike the VFR 750/800 ('94-97, my favorite version). That way, someone upgrading from the 400 could go the sport-touring mode with the 700, or into a 600SS, and both would be significant upgrades.

Leaving a 250, 400, and 650 option in the US would make for a lousy product line (bad succession), but it would work internationally. Honda's NT700 has been quite the success in Europe (despite being butt-ugly, imo), and I would happily consider a middleweight ST. That's why I test rode the NT700 - I just didn't like it.

Now after all this, I'm sure Kawi will read this and put me in charge of product line development. Oh well, it's good for discussion, no?

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Anteraan

Now after all this, I'm sure Kawi will read this and put me in charge of product line development. Oh well, it's good for discussion, no?

Hey you never know! Microsoft hired that 'double rainbow' guy to do a commercial for them.

You just need to go viral with your ideas.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Reswob

I bet a LOT more people want a sportbike than a faired standard. I think the 250R is too upright.

Could be. But there's a reason why they don't make the 250 less upright. An upright riding position is much easier for a beginner who is learning to ride.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

But would a 400cc sportbike sell in the american market? See that's the million dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.

This 400r is a feeler. I'm assuming if sales are overwhelmingly positive, then an all new bike will eventually be released....possibly by other manufacturers as well. Investing in new product would take tens of millions of dollars and they would need a damn good reason to do so.

People have been wondering for years why other manufacturers are choosing not to compete with Kawasaki in the 250 sport bike class. At least, not in a big way.

I don't think a 400 that looked exactly like the 650 and cost just a little bit less would sell in the US. But even assuming it did, where would these sales come from? It's not always a good idea to introduce a new product which entices your potential customers to trade down on their choice. I would imagine a lot of the trade off would come from customers who would have bought the 650 if the 400 had not been an option. Some would come from the 250 as well which may or may not be bad. But overall, I don't think it would be a positive move for Kawasaki. It would be different if they were going after a competitor, trying to take their market share, but there really is not one else in the US in this class of bike.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by revstriker

People have been wondering for years why other manufacturers are choosing not to compete with Kawasaki in the 250 sport bike class. At least, not in a big way.

I don't think a 400 that looked exactly like the 650 and cost just a little bit less would sell in the US. But even assuming it did, where would these sales come from? It's not always a good idea to introduce a new product which entices your potential customers to trade down on their choice. I would imagine a lot of the trade off would come from customers who would have bought the 650 if the 400 had not been an option. Some would come from the 250 as well which may or may not be bad. But overall, I don't think it would be a positive move for Kawasaki. It would be different if they were going after a competitor, trying to take their market share, but there really is not one else in the US in this class of bike.

I agree...which is why I doubt a 400 class sportbike will ever exist in north america. Weirder things have happened, though, and this 400r is definitely some kind of "wait and see" experiment. At the very least they'll make sales in areas with restrictive license brackets. Best case scenario is they uncover some kind of hidden worldwide fetish for 400cc bikes.....fat chance, though.

[KTRacing38]

Originally Posted by revstriker

And only 3 months of riding season.

What are you talkin' about Jeeves? lol!

Riding season started in March this year. I rode until December 1st last year.

[KTRacing38]

The 400 is being introduced in Canada to meet with the insurance laws in provinces such as BC and Quebec. It is replacing the EX 500.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by KTRacing38

What are you talkin' about Jeeves? lol!

Riding season started in March this year. I rode until December 1st last year.

I was only joking about the riding season.

I've got to admit though, I enjoy the 12 month riding season even if 3 of those months are scorching hot.

[Courteau]

Originally Posted by KTRacing38

The 400 is being introduced in Canada to meet with the insurance laws in provinces such as BC and Quebec. It is replacing the EX 500.

Here's quebec annual registration fees for motorcycles for 2010


125 cc or less $242
126 cc to 400 cc $373
401 cc and over (regular) $627
401 cc and over (high-risk) $1 410

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by Courteau

Here's quebec annual registration fees for motorcycles for 2010


125 cc or less $242
126 cc to 400 cc $373
401 cc and over (regular) $627
401 cc and over (high-risk) $1 410

That's retarded.

[peachdiddy]

Judging from the specs, I'm not sure I would like this bike so much. Look at how much more it is than a 250R. I think if I was considering moving up in engine size, I'd just jump to the 650 just so it could get out of its own way.

And it's no secret that they aren't reading the surveys correctly. They really need to just offer an injected 250 in the U.S. I'd trade mine off in a second for it. I think this will just be a test flop for (hopefully) a better 250 in the future. I don't personally need a ton of power in a motorcycle, and that's one reason I chose the 250. I just would reeeeeally like to have fuel injection (and maybe a Corbin saddle from stock).

I just hope they one day release the injected 250 in the U.S. THAT'S ALL I WANT! lol