Emulators

[Sipper']

Just did the install today, along with 'AllBalls' head bearings, and WOW!
Last time I did emulators was in 94 on my race bike, but had forgot just how much better the front is with them.

Started with 15w oil at 150mm and the bike uses 4.5" out of 5" of travel howling the front tire. Might go up to 20w to slow rebound slightly and see where the compression falls. At 3 turns with the blue spring to start.

This should be a FIRST mod anyone does. Even just starting on setting it up it's worlds better!

[Snake]

Great review! Thanks for the info.
What type of springs do you have? Normal rate or progressive?

[Sipper']

RaceTech .7 springs, Ohlins on rear.

Gonna take some getting used to. The bike was slow steering before and now you could almost do all steering with the footpegs!
Have to ride it a while (dang) to get a feel which direction (if any) to go with fluid and compression settings.

Buddy of mine who helped asked how it felt (I'm usually very descriptive) and I told him I don't know. So smooth it's amazing.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Sipper'

I told him I don't know. So smooth it's amazing.

I can relate!

[choneofakind]

It's a much more direct and lovely feeling isn't it??

[Lychee]

Like slapping a stripper's ass. Not that I know what that feels like.

Ah back to topic, any front end jack hammering at your current settings? (.7, 150 mm, 15w, 3 turns blue preload)

[Sipper']

Very direct, planted feel.

Nothing going on but smooth. No chatter, jack hammering, side to side/up down wobble, nothing. The infamous 50-40mph hand off the bars wobble it had is now gone as well. From 80-30 mph(only speeds tested) you can let off the bars and it just tracks straight and is smooth.

Steering is nice and light BUT the bike is more stable than ever in crosswinds and on grooves/cambers and such on the road.

Ended up so far coming UP 2 clicks of compression and OUT 2 clicks of rebound on the Ohlins to get a more balanced suspension feel with the modded fork vs the stocker.

Had the RT .7's and 20w oil in it before adding the emulators and the fork action was horrid but had tried 10w and 15w also and they were equally bad.

The emulators and head bearings were a very nice change!
Would have been worth it at twice the price!

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

How much were the individual parts may I ask?

[Sipper']

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

How much were the individual parts may I ask?

Emulators about $170 and AllBalls bearings were $45 shipped.

[Sipper']

Changed the fork oil from 15w to 20w and the rebound is much better, although still a tad quicker than I prefer. Kept the same oil level and all settings on the emulators and that has led me to the next change.

Have the blue spring on it now at 3 turns and the low speed plate with two holes. Will order the three and four hole plates so I can get it closer.
I will also lighten the high speed compression a full turn.

Hopefully these will bring me closer to a 'feel' I like.

What I have been fighting is a change in balance as you increase lean angle where the rear would compress more as you leaned more but the front would not. This would start the front pushing as you got into the second half of your lean angle. If you tried to turn it down very quickly the bike would instantly go into pushing.

[Sipper']

Same sag, 20w oil, 150mm oil level, compression plate with 4 holes, blue spring at 2 revs.

Bike now feels better turning in, on brakes, neutral or on throttle.
The decrease in low speed compression is a plus.
High speed compression feels pretty good.
Bike now follows grooves and camber changes MORE than previous.

Same settings except 1 rev on compression spring.

Not too much difference in straight line feel. The bike now seems to blow through too much fork travel, too quickly. In doing so the rebound is too slow to keep pace and the front stays low. Grooves are even worse than previous.



Did a 60-0 stop and used 4.5" travel, out of 5". Front tire howling, rear end swapping sides.

[Lychee]

Behavior seems really odd. Compression damping setting seems really low for your apparent ability. What is your body weight? Could the main spring be too strong? or to light?

[choneofakind]

4.5/5 on a hard stop sounds right. Spring rate looks good.

What's your static sag? How much preload are you using? More preload might remedy riding too low in the travel and then you could slow down the rebound a bit


Edit: 0.7 springs it looks like.

[Sipper']

I weigh 158 sans clothing, .7 springs up front, and I think a 465lb spring on the Ohlins. Preload, not sure but have 35mm total sag.

At times the front feels like it is riding high and at other times it feels low.
Cant get my head around it unless I am in the middle of a geometry that needs to go one way or the other to keep the same feel.

[Sipper']

Found that while the changes I made seem to help in some areas, they are a negative in others. The feedback coming from the front tire is superior with the initial setup and is more numb with the increase in rebound damping.

Changed out the spring on the Ohlins from the 80 to the 90 and things are MUCH better now. Much improved chassis control and feel. Think I can start making some headway on getting the front more balanced for feedback and stability.

[Lychee]

so... feedback from the front was numb, so you changed the rear spring?

[greg737]

Originally Posted by Lychee

so... feedback from the front was numb, so you changed the rear spring?

I had the same experience. I did the emulators on a Friday and rode it for about a week while I was waiting for my Hagon rear shock to arrive.

The way the bike felt with the emulators/springs/15w oil and the original stock rear shock had me worried that I'd wasted my money on the emulator mod. A week later the Hagon shock arrived and suddenly the bike felt so solid and responsive.

The emulator mod plus a good rear shock transformed the EX250 into the bike I wanted from the beginning.

[Sipper']

Originally Posted by Lychee

so... feedback from the front was numb, so you changed the rear spring?

If the spring is too soft then only large levels of compression damping or less than ideal rebound will retain geometry upon loading, which gives a very harsh/unstable ride. I had a feeling the spring wasn't the right one since I could not get the bike to handle correctly (for me).

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Sipper'

If the spring is too soft then only large levels of compression damping or less than ideal rebound will retain geometry upon loading, which gives a very harsh/unstable ride. I had a feeling the spring wasn't the right one since I could not get the bike to handle correctly (for me).

I feel like a lot of experience went into that decision. If it were my newbie self, I would have futzed with the front for a long time before coming to that conclusion. I still can't really wrap my mind around the reasoning.

[Sipper']

The front was numb with that setting compared the setting that wasn't numb.
But unless running damping settings to keep the rear from compressing, which was very harsh on anything but smooth roads, the rear would eventually load up and take load off the front, so much so that the front would go numb and go to running wide from mid corner on.

Just trying to get back into the groove of what effect one has on the other and posting experiences here so others can learn/compare.

It takes lots of work doing it all yourself but you will learn much.

[Sipper']

Getting closer on chassis set up.

Ohlins shock with 514lb spring, 30mm total sag, Soupy's bones and Ohlins set for +2" rear height increase.

Fork with emulators and .7 RT springs with 15mm preload and 35mm total sag, forks at .180" above clamps, yellow compression spring at 3 turns (so far).

Just replaced the blue with yellow springs a few days ago and it's a very positive change. Front/rear feel much more balanced hitting big bumps now.

Made a new low speed bleed plate with a single .050" hole and pitch is better controlled, (although I wonder if it makes the plate open sooner due to faster pressure rate) will play with it some more and see.

Air gap at 160mm. This one surprised me as going from 150mm to 160mm made a huge change in upper half of fork travel.

Played with fork tube height above triple and noted some big differences in steering feel and effort, chassis balance, damping adjustments and a few other things.

With the combination of +2" rear height and lowering the front 15mm, the steering effort was light, but the front tire wanted to almost steer itself, sort of like the axle was on the ground and the top of the tire was weighted, like a flop effect. It would eat a corner but the front end felt 'heavy' even though the steering wasn't, or so I thought.

Raised the front .180" and the steering was even lighter, but under braking the front still felt heavy.

Raised the front another .180" and the steering effort is much lighter and the feel is more even in front/rear balanced. The other settings felt like too much weight on the front tire.

I feel I am close, now the front has only a very slight heavy feel and I will ride it for a while to find out if I need to raise it more.

With the front at -15mm, the bike wasn't unstable in the twitchy sense, but followed any crown or grooves very badly. The effect is greatly minimized now even though the steering feels lighter.