EBC Brake feel

[kamikaze]

so with my recent tire change it was time for some new brake pads. Rotors still have lots of life, so I left those stock.

I read up on how to bed the sintered pads, and have been following that and the feel and braking performance has been getting better, but it's nowhere near as good as the stock pads yet. I've only put a couple hundred km on them, but it's not like you ride the brakes all the time, so the actual mileage on the brakes is much less.

is there anything I can do to get these things working better? i just about crapped my pants coming hot onto an offramp last night when I grabbed the front to get slowed down and there was almost nothing in terms of braking power.

[ninja250]

If you got the HH...
They will break in.
Mine sucked at first too but now I love them.

Go out and do so hard stops on them to break them in.
All the sudden one day they'll wake up and you'll be like "OH SHYT I CAN STOP! I SEE THE LIGHT!"

Don't forget to rebleed if they still don't feel right after a good couple of sessions.
It wasn't easy to get mine broken in, I remember that for some reason.I rebled the brakes a few times cause I thought I was doing something wrong, but I wasn't.
They definitely sucked worse than the stock ones UNTIL I got them broken in.

they need to conform to the shape of your old rotor and seat properly. I think they also have to wear through a thin layer of film or something.

We just put HH on Jet's rear brakes and he's having the same issue right now... until he gets them broken in right. Then they bite like gummy bicycle brake pads on a fresh chrome rim.

It's like a new tire... you might need 500 miles on it before you can start to use it's full abilities.
When I get new tires, they tell me to go easy for the first 500mi.
I'd recommend this with new pads as well.

Once broken in, I can really put the stop on this bike if I come on the front brake.
I really trust these pads quite a bit.

[Jinx250]

If you haven't bedded them in by 100 miles (max) then either something is worng with the system or you're not doing it hard enough. Braking too softly will only glaze the surfaces and virtually guarantee you'll never have good stopping power.

[ninja250]

Some people will take longer than others to bed them in. Either way, they eventually get there if you press on them hard enough a few times. I don't believe I had mine operating optimally within 100mi for some reason but I might be wrong. Go out and really squeeze the hell out of them a couple of times from like 60mph but don't lock up the wheel.

[Alex]

I'd rebleed. They do need some time to break in, but dozens of miles, not hundreds. Something else is going on here.

[kamikaze]

why would I need to bleed the brakes if I've never had the system apart?

[Alex]

They need to be rebled every once in awhile even when nothing is done to them. After a pad change, it's a great time to do it again.

[ninja250]

To properly adjust the fluid pressures to the new pads and cylinder positions.

Who knows if the people who did it the first time did it right to begin with.

It's standard procedure when replacing anything having to do with the brakes. You want the system to be nice and "tight" and no air bubbles. You might even replace the fluids completely. They get nasty in the lines after a while. Make sure Dot4 is in there.

[bdavison]

You dont....if you havent taken it apart, there's no reason to bleed the brakes, unless it was full of air before you changed the pads.
If air gets in there from changing the pads and moving the pistons back into the caliper....you've got messed up seals around the pistons.

One other thing you can do...is change them out ONE wheel at a time. If you are swapping them, change the front first, so you at least still have the rear until the front gets bedded in....then change out the rear.

[ninja250]

The thing there is you don't know if the stock pads originally were the same exact thickness of the new pads. Or if the factory bled their breaks after breaking them in. If they did at all.

Luckly the rear brake is a very simple system and easy to practice bleeding on! Not quite as important as the front either in most cases in case you don't get it right, right away.

[kamikaze]

yea, it's never been apart before, I bought the bike brand new a year ago. I have 24,000km on it now. the factory pads were almost down to the backing plate so I threw them out.

I'll try going out tonight and finding an empty stretch of road to get them bedded in.

[kamikaze]

So after talking to a couple friends at our local bike meeting place, they are telling me that my rotors are toast. They seemed like there have lots of meat on them, but they are scored pretty bad (which I didn't realize was an issue). They are badly glazed as well, and I'm sure the dozen or so hard stops from 100km/h this afternoon didn't help that.

So, now I have 2 questions:
Are EBC's rotors still of questionable quality, and now that I've likely scored the pads, when I put new rotors on it are the pads just going to chew up the new rotors?

[Alex]

On the EBC rotors themselves, read these two threads:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56322
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63418

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

is there anything I can do to get these things working better? i just about crapped my pants coming hot onto an offramp last night when I grabbed the front to get slowed down and there was almost nothing in terms of braking power.

What does this mean? Braking power?

What exactly are your brakes lacking? Does your lever travel too far now? Do you pull it to the grip now? Do the new brake pads just not "grip" the rotor as well as the old pads? Not enough friction there? Exactly what do you feel is wrong with your front brakes now, what are your symptoms?

[kamikaze]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

What does this mean? Braking power?

What exactly are your brakes lacking? Does your lever travel too far now? Do you pull it to the grip now? Do the new brake pads just not "grip" the rotor as well as the old pads? Not enough friction there? Exactly what do you feel is wrong with your front brakes now, what are your symptoms?

it means exactly that. you have to squeeze the hell out of the lever to get any sort of power from the brakes. I was bringing the bike down from hwy speed around 110-120km/h to about 80 for this particular ramp cause it's smooth as glass and goes pretty well 270° around. grabbed the brakes like i normally would and it was like there was nothing there. kept pulling harder about to the point where I'd be if I were trying to get completely stopped in a hurry before I finally got it slowed down. by that time I was real late into the turn and just threw it over on it's side and managed to make it around without any further incident.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

kept pulling harder about to the point where I'd be if I were trying to get completely stopped in a hurry before I finally got it slowed down.

This tells me that you don't need to bleed the brakes. If you did, the lever would pull to the bar easy and you would have to release the lever and reapply it in order to get a firm feel. If your lever feels firm but the bike isn't slowing down you have a friction problem or assembled the brakes wrong.

Did you wear the old pads down until metal was grinding metal? Before the pad change, did applying the front brakes cause the bike to shake/vibrate/pulsate? Does your rotor have any discoloration on it's surfaces? Did you clean the rotor surfaces before installing the new pads? Did you go through a burnishing process right after installing the new pads?

[kamikaze]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Did you wear the old pads down until metal was grinding metal?

No. Here's a pic of the rears, and the fronts were about the same. I know it looks like there's a couple chunks out of the old ones, but I assure you that's from using them to spread the calipers apart. the edges were in good condition before that.

Before the pad change, did applying the front brakes cause the bike to shake/vibrate/pulsate?

No. They were smooth as butter. The new pads don't either.

Does your rotor have any discoloration on it's surfaces?

They are a little blue in places, but it doesn't seem too bad. I can grab a pic of them later.

Did you clean the rotor surfaces before installing the new pads?

I had washed the wheels really well since I was getting new tires too and the guy that does my tires likes clean wheels. They were cleaned with soap and water with a plastic scrub brush.

Did you go through a burnishing process right after installing the new pads?

Not sure what you mean by this. I looked on EBC's website, and followed their suggestions as outlined in the "fitting new pads to used rotors" section of this page: http://www.ebcbrakes.com/ebc_brakes_...d_rotors.shtml

After I did the dozen or so stops from 100km/h to about 20km/h yesterday the initial bite seems to be better. It's probably just getting the pads ground down to match the grooves in the rotors, but my buddies rotors are smooth as glass even after 40000km. I think i'll use them for a week or two and unless they get significantly worse I'll probably just keep them.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

No. Here's a pic of the rears, and the fronts were about the same. I know it looks like there's a couple chunks out of the old ones, but I assure you that's from using them to spread the calipers apart. the edges were in good condition before that.




No. They were smooth as butter. The new pads don't either.


They are a little blue in places, but it doesn't seem too bad. I can grab a pic of them later.


I had washed the wheels really well since I was getting new tires too and the guy that does my tires likes clean wheels. They were cleaned with soap and water with a plastic scrub brush.



Not sure what you mean by this. I looked on EBC's website, and followed their suggestions as outlined in the "fitting new pads to used rotors" section of this page: http://www.ebcbrakes.com/ebc_brakes_...d_rotors.shtml

After I did the dozen or so stops from 100km/h to about 20km/h yesterday the initial bite seems to be better. It's probably just getting the pads ground down to match the grooves in the rotors, but my buddies rotors are smooth as glass even after 40000km. I think i'll use them for a week or two and unless they get significantly worse I'll probably just keep them.

Use a strong cleaner (like purple power, etc) and scotchbrite pads, along with some elbow grease to clean the rotor surfaces. Get into it good with the scrubbing, this will remove material on the rotor left behind by the old brake pads (this will often look blue or black). Wear gloves and eye protection

The wear pattern on your rotor sounds typical and is the main reason why brand new brake pads don't grip well. It's common for a brand new brake pad to have less than 50% of it's surface in contact with rotor surface when brand new. The harder the pad, the more work it takes to get the pad and rotor to match up. Sounds like you're on the right track now with "It's probably just getting the pads ground down to match the grooves in the rotors." You're probably exactly correct and I wouldn't go after rotor replacement for these reasons.

[kamikaze]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Use a strong cleaner (like purple power, etc) and scotchbrite pads, along with some elbow grease to clean the rotor surfaces. Get into it good with the scrubbing, this will remove material on the rotor left behind by the old brake pads (this will often look blue or black). Wear gloves and eye protection

The wear pattern on your rotor sounds typical and is the main reason why brand new brake pads don't grip well. It's common for a brand new brake pad to have less than 50% of it's surface in contact with rotor surface when brand new. The harder the pad, the more work it takes to get the pad and rotor to match up. Sounds like you're on the right track now with "It's probably just getting the pads ground down to match the grooves in the rotors." You're probably exactly correct and I wouldn't go after rotor replacement for these reasons.

I'll clean them up a little better when I get a chance. I'm kinda trying to sell the bike anyway to fund the purchase of another bike, but who knows if i'll get anywhere near what I want for mine. Thanks for the help

[ztrack157]

I use a sanding sponge on the rotors with every pad change.

[ninja250]

What grit rating, if you know?

[alex.s]

can you use a lathe to resurface bike rotors like you can a car rotor or are they too thin?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Jinx250

If you haven't bedded them in by 100 miles (max) then either something is worng with the system or you're not doing it hard enough. Braking too softly will only glaze the surfaces and virtually guarantee you'll never have good stopping power.

THANK YOU for saying this! That makes so much sense now. I wondered why my last pad/rotor change glazed..... I followed manufacturer's recommendations to the letter, which was to brake lightly. That explains it though. I changed pads on a truck once that said to brake hard, just like you are saying. I guess this goes with what the manufactures say about break-ins too......

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by alex.s

can you use a lathe to resurface bike rotors like you can a car rotor or are they too thin?

No. I looked into that a while ago... you can't do that on motorcycle rotors. They are just stamped steel.