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Old October 30th, 2015, 04:04 PM   #41
Ducati999
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Chris,
I totally agree. I have found 2 issues with the bike since you pointed out the 748. You had mentioned the "Wobble" when I turned in which you thought might have been caused by my being too tight on the bars. I found that the bolts holding the subframe are tight but the subframe moves up to a 1/4 inch up and down! I also told you I did not like the suspension of the 748 compared to the 999. I feel the rear shock is either way too soft or blown (it is a 1997)! I will be working on the suspension more than anything this winter. I believe there is a Pensky in my future. I just watched my video where you followed me and my pace was not great but pretty good for a guy on his 10th track day and second day riding the 748 ever! I believe this thread has found me my answer--not by telling me the secret to traction and reading feedback but by giving me the tools to figure it out by myself!

THANK YOU ALL
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Old October 30th, 2015, 04:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I believe this thread has found me my answer--not by telling me the secret to traction and reading feedback but by giving me the tools to figure it out by myself!
Dat's what I am talkin' bout!

Suspension is 100% without a doubt the best hard part mod that can be done to a bike. Tires come damn close, but for the average rider it's suspension. Amazing riders can do amazing things on crappy suspension and great tires but for the budding speed freak, the whole bike feels sh*tty when the suspension sucks.
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Old October 30th, 2015, 04:22 PM   #43
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@tgold - We are gunna have some great conversations in the paddock man. Your pit or mine yo. I feel we are gunna be soooo much on the same page.


I got the beers.
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Old October 30th, 2015, 07:04 PM   #44
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Not sure what you mean. I was not out of control but I was extremely focused and I knew that Jon was not going in too fast so I matched his pace. After he let me lead I was (Still in the zone?) able to continue to keep about the same pace. I was totally focused on riding and nothing else. Just fully focused with hightened senses and things just seemed to happen like they should. Now when I enter a turn I am thinking too much: Not too fast, keep on line, get over farther, find your marker......all thoughts as I am entering a turn and I believe it should be more automatic without so much fore thought. I had worked thru some of the issues earlier in the day but at this time everything just happened like it should have. Maybe I just need to use more instinct and less thought and I will be much faster and less mentally exhausted!
Sorry, I was just replying to csmith's post.
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Old October 30th, 2015, 07:28 PM   #45
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Sorry, I was just replying to csmith's post.
For full disclosure and all readers. I have had more than my fair share of pucker uncomfortable moments, true dat!

/modesty off
I will however clarify though... as ya'lls (many, many ninjette members) have followed me over the past 5yrs since I have been a member here, 120+ track days, 50+ races (mostly podiums, DAMN MCRA!!!!), 80+ riders helped with -10sec lap times, without incident. My pucker moments/crashes are from mistakes in my riding, not because I was pushing my or anyone else's personal limits.

Timm's comments have real significance yes, I agreed. Right or wrong, I am just not sure it matches what trackday/race orgs are currently presenting if you go for a track school tomorrow. Every one that I have attended or queried has said to ride within your limits, yes... even race school. Which would include MotoSeries, Timm's (and mine) own local race org. (too personal???? Sorry....) Sorry mang, we will just have to agree to disagree on how to get fast.

I don't mean to call you out Timm, just pointing out what is currently going on. I swear... we can still have beers, laugh and cut up just like any other, that's how I roll.
/modesty back on

Last futzed with by csmith12; October 30th, 2015 at 09:18 PM. Reason: spelling, and a little touch a class
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Old October 30th, 2015, 09:32 PM   #46
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I don't even smoke but I wanna see this thread really be 100% truth... straight up, so roll the next one bigger.
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Old October 31st, 2015, 03:55 AM   #47
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Sorry, I was just replying to csmith's post.
T was not offended just asking for you to make the statement "IN THE ZONE" more clear. I also wantnted everyone to know that I was not riding unsafe or above my limits (anyone who has ridden on the track with me knows I dont ride crazy, I just like to improve and I want to be a smoother faster rider) my goal is to become faster (not the fastest) and more skilled. The last thing I want to do is go down and ruin others track day even for a single session or lap. I appreciate everything everyone has taught me but this forum is full of people learning about riding (track, street and racing) and we dont want to give advice that may influence someone to try something they are not ready for yet. Everyone advances at their own pace and stepping too far outside of their ability, well there is a thread on this forum to deal with that also. Dont ever be afraid to say what you think or believe just remember there are people looking for knowledge that may misunderstand what you said and need it "put in perspective". My days of crazy high speed riding are over and I usually ride too conseritive rather than too agressive now, this may just be part of my problem! I would love to chatand have a beer with any of you!
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Old November 1st, 2015, 06:21 PM   #48
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I am just posting this for fun, but honestly... this is my plan for my son.

Step 1: put on socks, slide across a hardwood floor until you can slide 10ft+ repeatedly and laugh the whole time
Step 2: get a skateboard and ride it, the art of balance and how you use your body to influence it is important
Step 3: breath... relax... learn to only react to what you really need to react to. If you need an extreme example, get 3 friends... give 2 of them pool noodles, give the other a baseball bat and tell them to hit you
Step 4: ride the skateboard again and notice the differences in the reactions you DIDN'T have. Repeat the steps if you're still reacting to EVERYTHING or don't understand what I mean
Step 5: ride in the dirt as much as you can, then over the winter... ride on snow and ice
Step 6: do this until you can drift around corners on dirt, mud, snow or ice while laughing 100% of the time

Now you're ready to explore the upper limits of traction on a bike on pavement.
A youth spent skateboarding finally pays off. Totally planned it that way, I swear..

#KickflipsForTrackGrip

Any alternative suggestions for 5 and 6, for those of us without the funds to pick up yet another motorsport hobby/moneypit? Other than the pedal powered equivalent, I'm short on ideas here.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 06:48 PM   #49
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A youth spent skateboarding finally pays off. Totally planned it that way, I swear..

#KickflipsForTrackGrip

Any alternative suggestions for 5 and 6, for those of us without the funds to pick up yet another motorsport hobby/moneypit? Other than the pedal powered equivalent, I'm short on ideas here.
Funny you bump this thread as I just got off the phone with the OP (Ant). lol Give me some time to type up and update. I think I found the gap between Timm and I and it should be most beneficial to riders ... I will also address your 5, 6 question alternative.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 07:03 PM   #50
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I think I found the gap between Timm and I and it should be most beneficial to riders
It read to me like he (tgold) meant uncomfortable in the same sense you meant it in your Black and White - Braking Markers thread. Ant's response to Timm's post just seemed non sequitur, given that Timm had quoted you.

I look forward to the next round in this thread. It seems like useful reading, and I appreciate free knowledge.
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Old November 1st, 2015, 09:21 PM   #51
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It read to me like he (tgold) meant uncomfortable in the same sense you meant it in your Black and White - Braking Markers thread. Ant's response to Timm's post just seemed non sequitur, given that Timm had quoted you.

I look forward to the next round in this thread. It seems like useful reading, and I appreciate free knowledge.
Yes, Timm and I are meaning the same "uncomfortable" feeling. The difference between his post and mine, is a frame of reference. In my thread about breaking markers, you had a frame of reference of a 100% confident braking marker that was only moved by 1 bike length at a time. Timm just stated "uncomfortable" without a frame of reference in a thread about how to find the limit. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT....

After chatting with Ant and thinking about how it related to this thread, I can conclude that it's really easy to say ride uncomfortable when you have a frame of reference. An easy one that worked for Ant is following a coach at a pace that is greater than what he had ridden before. The coach... didn't take him beyond a skill jump that is too large (just like my braking skill thread). So, it worked well, Ant put his trust in the coach. The next step would be for Ant to ride uncomfortable without a tow from a coach. But.... he has no frame of reference to go by, so how does he tell if he is upping the pace too much or not? He has no frame of reference that his new pace is truly beyond his, the bike's or traction ability. Hence my problem with the blanket statement bit of advice, and it makes no difference if it is good or not. Ant is a good rider that knows how to recognize his limits very well, other riders.... well, let's just say that some riders take advice very literal to a fault. Now looking at it from Timm's point of view, there are tangible ways to gauge traction. Bars, seat, knee on tarmac, lean angle, sense of balance, ect... ect.. Now as a learning rider, some of the major traction indicators are missing or greatly exaggerated. Lean feels greater than experience riders, lack of traction feels greater than experienced riders, Ant feels little slides greater than more experienced riders. Why? Because those more experienced have more frames of reference and more experience with those frames of reference.

The big ones... (frames of reference)
Bars - you can feel what the front is doing
Seat - you can feel what the chassis is doing
Pegs - you can feel what the swingarm/rear is doing via the balls of your feet and even heels, if you have tidy feet
Knee - you know where the tarmac is because it just touched your knee
Head - you know how much the bike is leaned over (head bone is connected to your knee bone lol)

Now, as a learning rider... how much workable input are you really getting from the big ones? And I am not even including the small ones. ijs... And what if one or more of the big ones are missing or not working right? What if your not going fast enough to drag knee yet? Now your missing a huge input on lean angle vs where the ground is. What if your are unhappy with your rearsets or not riding on the balls of your feet? See what I mean? That is why I posted in another thread that finding the limits comes much, much later, after fundamental track skills and general traction assessment.

Since riders don't normally attend a school every track day, it's safe to assume that at some point the next time a rider hits the track, they will be on their own. Some riders might enlist the help of CR's/coaches but they may not (you should, that is what we are here for). So most track orgs that I have been exposed to, error on the safe side, and present the following; "All you have to do is practice/chase skills and the speed will come to you". Just like almost everyone says, "don't try to drag knee, get your skill up and it will happen all by itself."

Now for alternatives to 5 & 6.
Kart tracks and cheap go karts? Can you rent a kart for a few laps? Sensing lean angle is NOT the same as feeling for available traction.
Downhill Mtn biking, make sure you lock up the wheels a few times
Downhill biking on gravel for extra crazy fun.
Go to bike nights and make some friends. Many riders have dirt bikes, maybe a new friend will allow you to tool around on theirs. Just be willing to fix what you break.
You could always marry well.

Basically anything that gets your speed up has the chance of breaking traction.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 05:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
For full disclosure and all readers. I have had more than my fair share of pucker uncomfortable moments, true dat!

/modesty off
I will however clarify though... as ya'lls (many, many ninjette members) have followed me over the past 5yrs since I have been a member here, 120+ track days, 50+ races (mostly podiums, DAMN MCRA!!!!), 80+ riders helped with -10sec lap times, without incident. My pucker moments/crashes are from mistakes in my riding, not because I was pushing my or anyone else's personal limits.

Timm's comments have real significance yes, I agreed. Right or wrong, I am just not sure it matches what trackday/race orgs are currently presenting if you go for a track school tomorrow. Every one that I have attended or queried has said to ride within your limits, yes... even race school. Which would include MotoSeries, Timm's (and mine) own local race org. (too personal???? Sorry....) Sorry mang, we will just have to agree to disagree on how to get fast.

I don't mean to call you out Timm, just pointing out what is currently going on. I swear... we can still have beers, laugh and cut up just like any other, that's how I roll.
/modesty back on
Chris, with your experience and the reputation and rapport that you have on this forum, I sincerely hope that the things that you say will continue to be given proper consideration by the members here. There is much for them to gain from you.

I certainly don't want to get into a contest about who is more qualified to make comments on the subject at hand, but I make my comments based on 30-plus years of roadracing with wins, a championship, and some race instruction along the way.

We make mistakes when we are at our personal limits. There is no way to separate mistakes from those limits. Even further: If we crash when we reach the limits of our bike, it is still because we have reached our personal limit as a rider and we are unable to deal with the situation at hand. A classic example: "I crashed because of cold tires." A more appropriate statement would be: "I crashed because I went too fast on cold tires. Then there's the classic "I ran out of tire" as if it was the tire's fault. No, the more appropriate statement would be: "I leaned over too far". It is our job to know the temperature of our tires and ride appropriately. The sooner we understand that we are personally responsible for every aspect of our riding, the better.

The idea of riding within our limits is the one to have when we are around other riders. this is obviously because a mistake could take another rider out. Sure, we don't want to do that. It might be more appropriately said: "Don't ride ride way over your head" The problem is when riders try to make a huge improvement all at once and they (and others) reap the resulting unanticipated effects ending in a crash.

So I suggest probing of those limits gradually when not in the immediate vicinity of other riders.

I made my comments in the most straightforward way I know about finding the limits because the question that Ducati999 asked was about finding the limits. This approach has worked for me for a very long time. I remember this sort of thing happening in turn 13 at Nelson Ledges a while back. I knew the I was putting a lot of pressure on the front tire going deep into the turn and I could feel the front protesting a bit. So I told myself: "It's no good for my knee to be 4" off pavement if the front lets go. I won't be able to react in time...I'm going to plant my knee on the deck every time to be ready if the front slides." Sure enough, eventually the front had a pretty good slide, but my knee was there to take the pressure off the front, I held the throttle steady and recovered from the slide. No big deal. I am an average racer and that was one of the events that demonstrated to me what an average guy can do with practice. Full disclosure: Nowadays, I do take that corner differently and I try to not put so much weight on the front tire.

Make your improvements in small increments because that way you aren't surprised by what the bike does as you approach the limits.

The mental aspect of riding is my favorite part of track riding/racing and I certainly look forward to talking about this stuff with you Chris. I'll have some cold Blue Moon waiting in the fridge

Last futzed with by tgold; November 2nd, 2015 at 07:12 AM.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 07:19 AM   #53
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Yes, Timm and I are meaning the same "uncomfortable" feeling. The difference between his post and mine, is a frame of reference. In my thread about breaking markers, you had a frame of reference of a 100% confident braking marker that was only moved by 1 bike length at a time. Timm just stated "uncomfortable" without a frame of reference in a thread about how to find the limit. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT....
Chris, I am 100% in agreement with you. I specifically mentioned approaching those limits gradually and I elaborated on that in the same post I made the statement about making yourself uncomfortable.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 07:55 AM   #54
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It's all good and cool Timm. I have been in exactly 0 internet arguments and don't plan to change that now. lol Gradually upping the pace requires trusting your gut, and reviewing the lap timer is done in the paddock. Agreed, those are frames of reference, although kinda vague for the budding speed freak But meh, at the core of man, machine and pavement... there is much that is vague and nearly totally reliant on instinct about riding. Overall, I am thinking we are in violent agreement here and it makes even more sense the more I think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
I certainly don't want to get into a contest about who is more qualified to make comments on the subject at hand, but I make my comments based on 30-plus years of roadracing with wins, a championship, and some race instruction along the way.
Ah man ... I didn't mean it that way, I never flex like that. I was just trying to point out, that it is very possible to do over 100 track days without going down. I set a goal of riding that many days without crashing and reached it, but it required riding with the mindset of always staying 100% in control. I did a crappy job of explaining that. My bad... There is a thread about it somewhere though, maybe I should link it here.

I approach Ant's question differently because I have ridden with him, I know where his skill level currently is, I have had dinner at his home, mostly though... he is a friend. He told me a while back that he wants me to always give it to him straight, as he doesn't get all butthurt about things. So... the straight answer is, he aint ready for the limits yet. He has some bike setup issues to work though, as well as some fundamental skills to get a handle on before going out "seeking" of the limits.

Reading between the lines, Ant is really asking, "I am getting faster and the bike is complaining. Am I going to crash if I keep doing what I am doing now? Are there any warning signs and how do I recognize them?"

A thread with the same question is on just about every bike forum I have visited. They ALL SCUCK! I was hoping this one could be different by diving in really, really deep.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 08:45 AM   #55
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It's all good and cool Timm. I have been in exactly 0 internet arguments and don't plan to change that now. lol Gradually upping the pace requires trusting your gut, and reviewing the lap timer is done in the paddock. Agreed, those are frames of reference, although kinda vague for the budding speed freak But meh, at the core of man, machine and pavement... there is much that is vague and nearly totally reliant on instinct about riding. Overall, I am thinking we are in violent agreement here and it makes even more sense the more I think about it.



Ah man ... I didn't mean it that way, I never flex like that. I was just trying to point out, that it is very possible to do over 100 track days without going down. I set a goal of riding that many days without crashing and reached it, but it required riding with the mindset of always staying 100% in control. I did a crappy job of explaining that. My bad... There is a thread about it somewhere though, maybe I should link it here.

I approach Ant's question differently because I have ridden with him, I know where his skill level currently is, I have had dinner at his home, mostly though... he is a friend. He told me a while back that he wants me to always give it to him straight, as he doesn't get all butthurt about things. So... the straight answer is, he aint ready for the limits yet. He has some bike setup issues to work though, as well as some fundamental skills to get a handle on before going out "seeking" of the limits.

Reading between the lines, Ant is really asking, "I am getting faster and the bike is complaining. Am I going to crash if I keep doing what I am doing now? Are there any warning signs and how do I recognize them?"

A thread with the same question is on just about every bike forum I have visited. They ALL SCUCK! I was hoping this one could be different by diving in really, really deep.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 03:09 PM   #56
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@tgold - Fyi, your comment got lost somehow.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 08:12 AM   #57
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Apologies

Timm-AKA Tgold- I must apologize since I did not properly read your reply to Chris and I thought you were writing to me. Toeleven was correct and I was responding to a comment I thought you made to me about my experience. I appreciate everything you wrote and I will apply it this next season. Chris said it best in his post: I was asking the wrong question, I asked about the edge of traction but I really wanted to know what the bike was telling me. I know never to "advance too fast" or try pushing too much harder than I am comfortable. I believe Chris would just like to assure no new rider takes any adive the wrong way and ends up crashing.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 08:22 AM   #58
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I have to say, this forum is living up to it's claim of "the friendliest Kawasaki Ninja 300/250R site on the net." . I've seen discussions like this escalate rather quickly on other sites

Good to see the well thought out responses and a real passion for riding safe and fast.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 01:29 PM   #59
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I have to say, this forum is living up to it's claim of "the friendliest Kawasaki Ninja 300/250R site on the net." . I've seen discussions like this escalate rather quickly on other sites

Good to see the well thought out responses and a real passion for riding safe and fast.
ikr!!!

Let's keep going on a productive path!

If we are going really deep in details, then let's do it right. Since we are not bound by any rules of writing a short and complete article we can break the RAW fundamentals of traction down into the big 6 factors to build a picture of traction from the ground up (literally).

The short list of traction from the ground -> up
1. The surface you're riding on - The different mixes of the tarmac. The mix is regional!!! JenningsGP grips differently than Mid-Ohio as Nelson grips differently than Palmer. The raw materials that the track is made of different raw materials and different amounts of those materials. They can feel different to the rider and what you get away with at one track, may put you in the dirt at another.
2. The type of tire you're riding on - Different tires are harder, softer, size, compound, recommended pressures, bla, bla, bla, bla. They can feel different to the rider. For me, the Michelins carcass starts to flex a bit closer to the traction limit of the tire. Some say they don't give as much warning as the Dunlops. If we were to dumb it down for example's sake, say the following tires will have a 100% traction failure and 100mph. The dunlops will start complaining at 90mph vs 95mph on the Michelins. Some riders want the larger window of warning, others are fine with a smaller window.
3. Suspension - These adjustable bits can increase feel (harder settings) or take away feel (softer settings) as well as feedback to the rider and have a huge effect on traction and how much you feel vs what the shocks eat up.
4. Grips, seat, pegs and any other point where the hard parts of the bike comes into contact with the soft parts of the rider - Race seats are thinner. Why? We don't have super fat grips on our clip ons. Why? We don't use rubberized rearsets. Why? How does the tank feel on your chest in a full tuck if you have a chest protector vs not? These can feel different to the rider.
5. Gear - Have padded shorts under your suit, or maybe really thick gloves? One of the selling points of gloves is increased feel in the palm and sometimes fingers. Do you prefer thicker or thinner soles on your boots? These can feel different to the rider.

6. The rider's tolerance/ability/skills - Search through my previous posts and you will find this little nugget to prevent some SR's before they become distractions or action items.
Quote:
I use my legs to support some of my body weight on the bike to prevent some of the little bumps, skips and slides from making it to my head.
I guess I will also let this little secret cat out of the bag... I call it the "spread effect" in short, but it's really, really, really getting a good lock on the bike. When you stand straight up, you support your weight 50/50 with each leg. Do you do that on the bike? What part of the bike supports the majority of your weight? It's not the bars for sure... so I like to spread my weight evenly over the seat, pegs, knee on tank, chest on tank when tucked or arm on the tank when hanging off. To start off, this means the suspension does not have to compensate for me as the rider in general. This also lets me move around more fluidly on the bike, especially sliding across the seat with ease. Feel of traction wise, it ensures I don't get too much "localized feedback" and a better definition of what the whole bike's traction level is. Basically the muscles in bumm, legs/knee, chest, and whichever arm is on the tank act as buffers or noise gates to my head. Sometimes I use use them to dull the feeling of lack of traction or increase the feeling of traction by paying more attention to those contact points. Most importantly, it allows me to really isolate my throttle control to move weight around. After all, your main goal while riding is to "keep the bike stable". If you repeat the throttle control rule 1000 times, this one should be repeated 999 times. This is how I define my instinct while riding.

All of these things combine to paint a beautiful picture of traction or lack of it, that is then perceived to the rider. Each of us feel it differently and is just as much an art form, as it is a skill in all to itself. The better your skill, the more traction you can detect and... even sometimes get away with going beyond it a little bit.

So far.... I haven't seen anything, anywhere that is a better explanation of a very complex subject.

Last futzed with by csmith12; November 3rd, 2015 at 05:16 PM. Reason: moved a sentence for clearer intent
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Old November 4th, 2015, 12:59 PM   #60
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Hello Everyone,
I want to know how to tell when you are approaching the limits of traction. This is a very broad question but as a newish track rider I have been pushing a little bit more and slowly adding speed. The biggest hurdle is the worry of accidently going past the limit. I know there are guys going thru the same turn on the same line as I am with lots more speed (I just moved out of the slowest group) so I know there is more grip available, I just dont know what the signals the bike is sending to me mean in relation to the limit.
This is a very difficult question and a good one! I'm sorry that I didn't see this post earlier bit overall I think that the general advice that people are giving here is really good!

I just wanted to mention something that is in my article on the topic and that is:

".....there are some ways to improve your odds. The best way is to have a solid understanding of good riding skills.

Author of Twist of the Wrist II, Keith Code says that, “having good technical skills is the only sane route to mastering the bands of traction and reading their signs. In other words, without a firm grounding in basics, it’s easy for riders to misidentify what they think is a loss of traction when it isn’t or because of poor technique they may skip a band or two and get themselves into trouble."

He goes on to say that, “Sloppy throttle control gives a false sense of tire grip. Using lean angle in the wrong part of the turn for the wrong reasons gives a distorted feel for it. How the rider sits on the bike can have a huge effect on it. Confusing inputs into the handlebars is another classic way of misreading the signs your tires can give you. All of these [riding errors] will set you up to miss the signals completely.”


So basically, the more you arm yourself with knowledge about good solid riding technique and the more understanding you have, the better prepared and able you will be to notice and read the signals the bike is giving you about available traction.

Also in the article are a few suggestions of some things that you might FEEL that indicate you are at the edge of front end traction. You can read the rest here: http://www.motomom.ca/the-limit-expl...tire-traction/

Let me know if you have any further questions or more specific questions

Great topic!

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Old November 7th, 2015, 06:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
This is a very difficult question and a good one! I'm sorry that I didn't see this post earlier bit overall I think that the general advice that people are giving here is really good!

I just wanted to mention something that is in my article on the topic and that is:

".....there are some ways to improve your odds. The best way is to have a solid understanding of good riding skills.

Author of Twist of the Wrist II, Keith Code says that, “having good technical skills is the only sane route to mastering the bands of traction and reading their signs. In other words, without a firm grounding in basics, it’s easy for riders to misidentify what they think is a loss of traction when it isn’t or because of poor technique they may skip a band or two and get themselves into trouble."

He goes on to say that, “Sloppy throttle control gives a false sense of tire grip. Using lean angle in the wrong part of the turn for the wrong reasons gives a distorted feel for it. How the rider sits on the bike can have a huge effect on it. Confusing inputs into the handlebars is another classic way of misreading the signs your tires can give you. All of these [riding errors] will set you up to miss the signals completely.”


So basically, the more you arm yourself with knowledge about good solid riding technique and the more understanding you have, the better prepared and able you will be to notice and read the signals the bike is giving you about available traction.

Also in the article are a few suggestions of some things that you might FEEL that indicate you are at the edge of front end traction. You can read the rest here: http://www.motomom.ca/the-limit-expl...tire-traction/

Let me know if you have any further questions or more specific questions

Great topic!

Misti
Thank you so much Misti! I really appreciate everyones input. I wanted to say thank you to you along with ever one else who has answered my question(s) in this thread. I have discovered that I was actually aking the wrong question and I have had some great responses to point me in the right direction. I have purchased a new (refurbished) Ohlins shock set up for my weight and I will be ready to apply what I have learned on the track next season. I have a plan of attack for next season and there is no doubt in my mind that I will make more improvements next year than I did this year!

I am still hoping some experienced riders will give me their thoughts on this also. I am always willing to listen to what has helped others get faster and smoother. I can ride well enough to keep pace in the yellow group (one above the slowest) but the door to being fast is just cracked open now and there is so much more to learn and experience. Thank you all and don't be afraid to post your ideas, experiences and most important stories to help me and others learn!
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Old November 7th, 2015, 07:47 PM   #62
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I have also found that more track time = more knowledge, and more track time with a skilled instructor is priceless.
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Old November 8th, 2015, 12:14 PM   #63
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I have also found that more track time = more knowledge, and more track time with a skilled instructor is priceless.
I am in agreement with your statement. The only time I had a major breakthrough was when following an instructor on the track. I will have a membership with TTD for 2016 and I hope to visit a few tracks besides what they offer. I want to hit Thompson, Palmer (multiple times), NH AKA Laconia, NYST, Mid Ohio and possible one more this next season. I have a few issues to work out with my bike and riding position then I will get the instructors involved. I found an issue with my 748 at the end of last season which I am correcting along with a new Ohlins shock and a small change to the motor, so I don't feel like I am stuck between gears, and I am adding a gold valve kit to the forks. The modifications are against advice from a trusted friend (other than the first issue)but I think they will help me more than hold me back. I am really looking forward to this next season.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 02:31 PM   #64
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I think there's a lot of great advice in this thread. For relatively new riders, I think it's hard to know where the edge is. I'm sort of in that same group, having always ridden easy enough to never actually run into a questionable traction situation. If you've never pushed it toward the limits, you don't really know what to expect when you get to the edge. Misti points out some tips that people can look for, as being inexperienced inherently means you don't necessarily recognize the signs. If you're afraid of the consequences of crossing the edge (damaging your bike and/or hurting yourself), it's easy to just stay as far as possible from the limits so as to avoid anything bad.

As with learning/perfecting anything, I think a lot of it comes down to practice and spending time exploring the limits. You can read up on how different signs indicate different things that your bike is doing, but I personally find a lot of this stuff to be hard to grasp without actually feeling it myself. Obviously you don't want to just go full WOT your first time on the track, but if you're not pushing yourself a little bit (like Chris's example of moving your brake marker up a bikelength at a time), you're not improving. It's simply a matter of pushing yourself a little bit, getting comfortable at that level, then doing it again. You take baby steps so you don't get in over your head, but you're still moving toward the goal.


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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Suspension is 100% without a doubt the best hard part mod that can be done to a bike. Tires come damn close, but for the average rider it's suspension. Amazing riders can do amazing things on crappy suspension and great tires but for the budding speed freak, the whole bike feels sh*tty when the suspension sucks.
It seems the OP's experiences described in this thread are on his Ducati rather than a Ninjette. My advice doesn't necessarily apply to other bikes, but these little Ninjas come with some pretty crazy spring rates. Using RaceTech's calculator, the NewGen's fork springs are ideal for a <100lb rider while the rear is good for a >200lb rider. The PreGen's fork springs are ideal for <30lb and the rear (assuming the same suspension geometry as the NewGen) is good for ~140lb. Even if one of those happens to match your weight perfectly, the other end will be way off.

My EX500 is similar, with <30lb springs in the front and ~120lb in the rear. As a bigger guy, simply getting springs to match my weight (without any other fancy stuff like emulators/Intiminators or an adjustable shock) made a night & day difference in how the bike felt. On the stock springs, the lack of support meant a rough ride and mushiness in corners. With the proper spring rates, the suspension moved in a controlled manner like it's supposed to. Bumps were absorbed and it didn't squish all the way down from the slightest bit of force in the corners.

For most people, one or more of the stock spring rates are drastically mismatched to their weight. This isn't a case of trying to upgrade the bike to avoid improving your skills, it's a matter of correcting a really bad stock setup to actually match the rider's size. With the stock springs, my bike simply didn't perform as intended with me on it. I think it would be hard for anyone to learn to ride well on a bike that doesn't behave at least somewhat close to what it's "supposed" to do. Compare it to riding with a flat tire or only firing on one cylinder. Sure, riding a bike in less-than-perfect condition can help you develop your skills (in the same way that a Ninjette in general teaches you not to rely on the sheer power of a bike to mask poor riding). But if it's so bad that the bike doesn't act "normal" then you may not actually be developing skills that apply to a "normal" bike. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get a top-of-the-line suspension setup customized to your exact dimensions, but spending ~$150 on new springs could make your experience much more enjoyable and productive.
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Old December 2nd, 2015, 11:21 AM   #65
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Here is a new article from Keith that is relevant to this discussion.

RIDING TIPS: TRACTION, ACCELERATION, BRAKING – HOW TO AVOID EXCEEDING YOUR THRESHOLD

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ri...src=SOC&dom=fb
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Old December 8th, 2015, 12:45 PM   #66
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Now you're gettin' it Ant! As you progress through practiced skills, you can relieve yourself of thinking about those honed skills, and your newly "trained instinct" can take over that job. Much like Timm's balance beam example, it comes with time and practice.

Although, from your first post and the last time we rode together, the bike is telling you something. You have the option of pushing yourself through it or pushing the bike. Ignoring the bike normally doesn't work out very well though. ijs....

From your 6, I only saw the rear of the bike slide a couple of times and we have already chatted about those concerns. I wouldn't up the pace much more until you have solved those issues.
I may have already mentioned this story but it seems worth repeating based on the comments above. I have a lot of students that get frustrated during the school saying that because they are working so hard on improving their riding skills that it feels like they are over thinking things and in essence going slower. This may be true but it is necessary in order to go faster.

To up your pace you must work on specific skills at specific times in order to push through your current riding ability and improve. You have to try new things and put in effort. This effort requires you to think about and analyze things. But there comes a time when you must clear your mind and just ride and that is where all your hard work and analytical thinking will pay off. Your new skills will become instinctual and you will find that riding zone.

When I was trying to qualify for my very first AMA race I was WAY WAY off pace and certain riders were trying to make it very clear to me that they didn't want me on the track. I was super frustrated with myself and wanted to quit but I called Keith Code after each practice session and we worked through my problems and chose ONE specific thing to work on during each practice session. My times continued to drop steadily but come qualifying I still needed a good 3 seconds in order to make it. I called Keith. "what do I work on?" I asked.

"Just ride." he said. He went on to say that this was my dream, to race an AMA race and that all the practice and effort and coaching time and studying time came down to this moment. I had already put in the hard work and now it was time to just ride. So I did. I told myself to have fun, I reminded myself to be relaxed and to enjoy it. I put my head down and I just rode. I felt like I went slower.

When I came in I was disappointed, thinking that I had gone slower but my crew was beaming. You found 3 seconds they said and I qualified 44 on the grid (last spot) out of about 56 riders that were trying. I found the zone.

I do similar exercises with my students if they hit a wall during coaching where they feel like they are over-thinking everything. I tell them to do one lap where they think about EVERYTHING they are trying to accomplish and do correctly and then after that, think about NOTHING for the rest of the season. Works wonders. I even wrote an article about one of my best student turn-arounds which you can read here:

There is also an article about being IN THE ZONE HERE:

Put in the hard work, then...Just ride

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I have to say, this forum is living up to it's claim of "the friendliest Kawasaki Ninja 300/250R site on the net." . I've seen discussions like this escalate rather quickly on other sites

Good to see the well thought out responses and a real passion for riding safe and fast.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 01:14 PM   #67
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I've felt the same thing in a few races. Bummed that I went slower then realize that I actually went far faster. Most notably was during my last trip to jennings where I dropped 5s off my time and was able to keep up with people who are normally far faster than me (like brian "tuna" mullins)

now if only I could get it to work more often hahaha
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Old December 8th, 2015, 01:26 PM   #68
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Old December 8th, 2015, 01:36 PM   #69
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When the student surpasses the master it does not mean that the master has taught all that he/she can teach, only that the student has passed the first step on the journey, the next is to apply the knowledge and skills and for that the master's experience is critical

for example: in misti's story she was qualifying for an ama race, no doubt faster than keith if the two were to race against each other yet his advice from experience proved to be what she needed to clinch the spot on the grid. The same holds true farther along with josh herrin picking up a personal coach for the upcoming season and many motogp racers having personal coaches to ensure that they are at the top of their game. These racers know everything their coaches do but they don't have the same perspective and experience as their coaches and that makes all the difference
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Old December 9th, 2015, 09:39 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBazz View Post
Here is a new article from Keith that is relevant to this discussion.

RIDING TIPS: TRACTION, ACCELERATION, BRAKING – HOW TO AVOID EXCEEDING YOUR THRESHOLD

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ri...src=SOC&dom=fb
Imo, this thread gets you a lot closer to that article's title than the actual article. A commenter at that link sums it up well:
Quote:
So what exactly is the answer to the question that the article's title asks? I read a definition of thresholds. An explanation of why they're important. A bit about how electronics are changing our interaction with them. And finally, of course, the CSS plug. But the best I can tell, Keith's point is, "you can avoid exceeding your thresholds by understanding them better." Well golly gee, you don't say.
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Old December 14th, 2015, 12:48 PM   #71
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When the student surpasses the master it does not mean that the master has taught all that he/she can teach, only that the student has passed the first step on the journey, the next is to apply the knowledge and skills and for that the master's experience is critical

for example: in misti's story she was qualifying for an ama race, no doubt faster than keith if the two were to race against each other yet his advice from experience proved to be what she needed to clinch the spot on the grid. The same holds true farther along with josh herrin picking up a personal coach for the upcoming season and many motogp racers having personal coaches to ensure that they are at the top of their game. These racers know everything their coaches do but they don't have the same perspective and experience as their coaches and that makes all the difference
Good point. Perspective is the key. You can't SEE yourself ride. Hence the reason coaching works. Someone else's eyes on you, seeing what you are doing and offering a different perspective on what might help you improve.

I had a wonderful experience at one of the Superbike Schools I was coaching. It was several years ago, when we rode at Blackhawk farms and Keith Code announced at our morning staff meeting that he was going to be a student for a day. He was to ride on track with all the students, doing the same drills and being assigned a riding coach on track to lead and follow him the same way we do with our other students.

Turned out that I was chosen to be his coach. I was a little nervous at the start...coaching the BOSS but when I started following him I could clearly see some of the mistakes he was making. During my first debrief session I started to guide him towards the mistakes he was making and how I wanted him to proceed when he started to disagree with me. He felt like he know what mistakes he was making and what route to take.

I looked at him and did the zipper motion with my hands at the same time telling him to "ZIP IT KEITH! I'm your coach so you listen to me today. I may have different perspective on your riding then you do and I may have a different method to solving those issues but you wanted coaching so let me coach."

He zipped it and listened and applied what I was suggesting and made improvements. At the end of the day he thanked me for zipping him up and thanked me for utilizing his training to coach him towards improvement. Ultimately we came to the same point in the coaching tech, I just took a different route to getting there then he would have.

Just goes to show you that no matter how good you are or how knowledgable you are, sometimes a slightly different perspective or a different set of eyes from a trained professional can really give you a different way to improvement.
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 10:31 AM   #72
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I am bumping this thread since the wisdom I gained from the posts helped me go faster than I ever have and with less effort. You should read each post from first to last and ask what it means to you. I was scared rushing into turns and not understanding what the front tire was telling me. I talked to a few trusted individuals and really pondered the great info you all provided and figured out how it applied to what I was and Was not doing on the track. There are many links to great articles and some drills you can do to gain perspective on what to expect but nothing replaces actual experience!

I just returned from 2 days at the Palmer Mass track and I am happy to report that I went faster than I have ever gone in my life, yet I felt that I was in more control (and fighting the bike less) than ever in my entire riding life! I am far from fast or an expert but I have listened, learned and applied the knowledge from the people who were willing to share their experience/knowledge and it helped me reach one of my riding milestones! THANK YOU ALL! I will list a few things I feel helped me and see if I got them right: anyone who sees I have made a mistake or wrote something incorrect please do not hesitate to reply and correct me as I am still learning!

#1 Physical fitness: I work with computers and electronics so my fitness was low last year. I did multiple squats and started doing long walks and running as much as I had time. Your legs are the most worked part of your body out there. You cant pull yourself back up with your thigh if its exhausted and you have to use your calves to keep up on your toes. Your body feels much heavier under G-force while turning and you need to be smooth when swapping lean from left to right or vice versa!

#2 Over Thinking: I was fighting myself before every turn! I had to slow down to go faster. Once I read above where I was instructed to focus on a single turn and slowly increase the pace thru there, I found I was smoother all over the track which helped me keep on the correct lines and I had to fight the bike back into the proper place less. This left more energy and brain power to focus on doing the corner correctly which leads to faster!

#3 Smoothness: Since I was not fighting the bike to get on the correct line and direction (vector?) I was pointed in the correct direction to enter the turn, which leads to the correct line to reach the apex and a good line on exit. How you enter the turn affects the line and speed you reach the apex and how early you can get back on the gas.

#4 Exits: When I would do the corner correctly, I would exit on the correct line and that would allow me to continue to accelerate and simply allow the bike to run out to the next marker with no real effort from me. Before I would roll on the throttle and have to correct the direction the bike was traveling to keep it headed to the next marker. The better I did things the easier it was to be smooth and just allow the bike to flow thru the markers/follow the race line. I followed my wife who is still learning and it was clear that the lines/markers dont always seem to make sense at a slower speed.

#5 Braking: Like I said above, once you get the lines down and smooth you will be pointing in the proper direction/angle to enter the next turn without making any corrections. This will allow you to focus on when and where (marker) to roll off the throttle and when to begin/how hard to apply the brakes. This will also allow you to begin to move your roll off and braking closer to the turn in point eventually.

#6 Traction: The title of this thread is "How to find the Edge" because I had no idea what my tires were telling me when I would enter a turn. When I enter a turn and add lean angle I feel/felt a different sensation thru the bars then when going straight and/or braking. You can feel the bike turning but there is also another feeling, kinda like the bike is slipping/sliding a little bit. This is what I did not know/understand. After this weekend (HERE IS WHERE I MAY NEED SOMEONE TO CLAIRIFY) I believe this is just a slight pushing where the tire is following your command to turn but also slipping a tiny bit fighting the momentum of the bike and making it turn. I think this is what people are reffering to when they say the bike is sliding when they are going too slow to actually be sliding. Once I managed to get my entry correct and began to increase pace (slowly) thru my chosen practice corner, I found this sensation does not get much worse even with considerably more speed. I believe it will begin to get more and more as you approach the limits of the tires traction. I was able to get to the point where I could push the bike much faster than I was going yet the slight sideways sliding feeling did not get much more intense.

#7 Confidence: Each time I would get things right and I entered the turn on the right line I was able to enter a little faster and get on the gas a little earlier and still hit my marks I would exit the turn that much faster and could carry more speed up the straight on the right line and into the next turn. I know this may sound like a lot of speed but really it equaled about 10mph by the end of the weekend! Exiting a turn at 10mph faster than you were ever able to do at your best before and remaining on the proper line lap after lap is a win for me!

Last season I was worried when I stepped up from the red (slowest) group to yellow (2nd of 4 groups) and now I can keep pace with some of the fastest guys in the yellow group. I am not fighting the bike and feel I am safer and more in control riding at this pace than I did when I was riding in red group!

Thanks again to everyone who helped me get past my plateau and make some real progress. Chris will let you know how much/little I have actually improved after I ride with him at Mid Ohio next Weekend!
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 04:57 PM   #73
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Old June 14th, 2016, 01:43 PM   #74
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I am bumping this thread since the wisdom I gained from the posts helped me go faster than I ever have and with less effort. You should read each post from first to last and ask what it means to you. I was scared rushing into turns and not understanding what the front tire was telling me. I talked to a few trusted individuals and really pondered the great info you all provided and figured out how it applied to what I was and Was not doing on the track. There are many links to great articles and some drills you can do to gain perspective on what to expect but nothing replaces actual experience!

#6 Traction: The title of this thread is "How to find the Edge" because I had no idea what my tires were telling me when I would enter a turn. When I enter a turn and add lean angle I feel/felt a different sensation thru the bars then when going straight and/or braking. You can feel the bike turning but there is also another feeling, kinda like the bike is slipping/sliding a little bit. This is what I did not know/understand. After this weekend (HERE IS WHERE I MAY NEED SOMEONE TO CLAIRIFY) I believe this is just a slight pushing where the tire is following your command to turn but also slipping a tiny bit fighting the momentum of the bike and making it turn. I think this is what people are reffering to when they say the bike is sliding when they are going too slow to actually be sliding. Once I managed to get my entry correct and began to increase pace (slowly) thru my chosen practice corner, I found this sensation does not get much worse even with considerably more speed. I believe it will begin to get more and more as you approach the limits of the tires traction. I was able to get to the point where I could push the bike much faster than I was going yet the slight sideways sliding feeling did not get much more intense.
Thanks for bumping up this thread and for taking the time to write your experiences! It's great to hear that you were able to take some of the advice that people had given and apply it for tangible results at the track! Wooohooooo!! :dance cool:


I just wanted to touch base on one aspect that you talk about above. You mention that you feel a sensation of the bike possibly pushing or sliding- the way you describe it, it sounds like something slightly different to me. When you turn the bike you press on the inside bar to initiate the turn, right? what do you do IMMEDIATELY after you press on the bar? How do you stop the bike from turning anymore?

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Old June 16th, 2016, 06:13 AM   #75
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Thanks for bumping up this thread and for taking the time to write your experiences! It's great to hear that you were able to take some of the advice that people had given and apply it for tangible results at the track! Wooohooooo!! :dance cool:


I just wanted to touch base on one aspect that you talk about above. You mention that you feel a sensation of the bike possibly pushing or sliding- the way you describe it, it sounds like something slightly different to me. When you turn the bike you press on the inside bar to initiate the turn, right? what do you do IMMEDIATELY after you press on the bar? How do you stop the bike from turning anymore?

Misti

Misti,
I believe you are right that I did not state what I was feeling correctly. Towards the beginning of this thread I was asking what the feeling I was getting thru the front end was. When I began to corner harder at the track, I was feeling something new thru the bars and did not know/understand what the feedback from the tire was telling me. I have just returned from Riding School with Mr CSMITH12 and I now have a much better understanding of what the bike it communicating to me while leaned over at speed. I will PM you with some of what I have learned and explain further. Thank you so much for taking time to assess and improve my riding!

The answer the your first question above: "What do you do immediately after you press on the bar?" (Answer) Stop once the lean angle is correct for the turn.

Answer to the second question above: "What do you do to stop the bike from turning?" (Answer) Push/pull bars in the opposite direction.

Let me know if I got these answers correct or if I am missing what you are trying to communicate to me
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Old June 16th, 2016, 06:31 AM   #76
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To everyone who has read and contributed to this thread:

From all my posts above you know that I have been riding on the track for the last few years (approx 15 track days over 3 years so far) and trying to improve my riding skills in the process. Speed is not my goal but simply a by-product from application of increased riding skills. I did approx 12 of the track days without a personal coach working with me and very little classroom time, I knew what I needed to do and wanted the time on the track to get comfortable at the higher speeds. I just returned from 2 days at the Mid Ohio Riding School and I learned more there in just 2 days with a coach than in 12 days without! I rode faster, broke later and harder, leaned further, lapped the track quicker and felt safer doing it than ever before I strongly suggest that everyone that wants to be a better rider get a professional coach to work with them! Had I done this at the beginning and applied the knowledge over those same 12 track days imagine how much better I would be right now The improvement is leaps and bounds over anything I figured out by myself: before I would occasionally touch down my knee thru turns and after one day of real coaching I was dragging my knee thru entire turns! Spend the $$ it is totally worth it and I know I would have enjoyed the 12 track days even more than I did had I known then what I do now! (Caution) Getting a riding coach may cause extreme track addiction followed by greatly increased tire wear!
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Old June 16th, 2016, 10:04 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
To everyone who has read and contributed to this thread:

From all my posts above you know that I have been riding on the track for the last few years (approx 15 track days over 3 years so far) and trying to improve my riding skills in the process. Speed is not my goal but simply a by-product from application of increased riding skills. I did approx 12 of the track days without a personal coach working with me and very little classroom time, I knew what I needed to do and wanted the time on the track to get comfortable at the higher speeds. I just returned from 2 days at the Mid Ohio Riding School and I learned more there in just 2 days with a coach than in 12 days without! I rode faster, broke later and harder, leaned further, lapped the track quicker and felt safer doing it than ever before I strongly suggest that everyone that wants to be a better rider get a professional coach to work with them! Had I done this at the beginning and applied the knowledge over those same 12 track days imagine how much better I would be right now The improvement is leaps and bounds over anything I figured out by myself: before I would occasionally touch down my knee thru turns and after one day of real coaching I was dragging my knee thru entire turns! Spend the $$ it is totally worth it and I know I would have enjoyed the 12 track days even more than I did had I known then what I do now! (Caution) Getting a riding coach may cause extreme track addiction followed by greatly increased tire wear!
Someone very smart (and handsome ) suggested that almost a year ago.
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Old June 16th, 2016, 10:20 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
The answer the your first question above: "What do you do immediately after you press on the bar?" (Answer) Stop once the lean angle is correct for the turn.

Answer to the second question above: "What do you do to stop the bike from turning?" (Answer) Push/pull bars in the opposite direction.
Ant, I think you missed slightly on the second one, only because of terminology. "Turning the bike" means causing a change of direction from the path it would take anyway. A bike that's leaned over with no pressure on the bars is carving a circle but it's not "being turned" because it's at steady state.

(Try it with your bicycle... hold the saddle, tilt it over and push forward... it'll go in a circle without you pressing the bar at all.)

Consider that we're told to "finish turning the bike" as fast as possible, and before the apex. That's consistent with the idea that simply releasing bar pressure stops the bike from turning further.

I'd say the answer to both is the same... release bar pressure. You initiate the turn by pressing on the bar. You maintain turning (meaning the bike continues to lean over) as long as the bar is pressed. Once you release pressure, the bike STOPS turning and is now tracking in an arc because it's leaned over.

Countersteering the other way gets the bike stood up.
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Old June 16th, 2016, 11:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Ant, I think you missed slightly on the second one, only because of terminology. "Turning the bike" means causing a change of direction from the path it would take anyway. A bike that's leaned over with no pressure on the bars is carving a circle but it's not "being turned" because it's at steady state.

(Try it with your bicycle... hold the saddle, tilt it over and push forward... it'll go in a circle without you pressing the bar at all.)

Consider that we're told to "finish turning the bike" as fast as possible, and before the apex. That's consistent with the idea that simply releasing bar pressure stops the bike from turning further.

I'd say the answer to both is the same... release bar pressure. You initiate the turn by pressing on the bar. You maintain turning (meaning the bike continues to lean over) as long as the bar is pressed. Once you release pressure, the bike STOPS turning and is now tracking in an arc because it's leaned over.

Countersteering the other way gets the bike stood up.
An important but related factor is what rolling on the throttle does. Lots of people think rolling on causes the bike to stand up, for example.

The amazing Misti talks about it over here: http://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/ri...d-bike-up.html

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Old June 16th, 2016, 12:21 PM   #80
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When you bike is set up well, it takes 0% bar pressure + good throttle control to hold your line. To stop turning, simply stop pushing the bar to once your line is set. Poor throttle control can stand the bike up and send you wide though. From what I saw, that is not the issue here.

Having said that though... You two guys (Ant and Andrew), since you let me ride your bikes and I have first hand experience on your machines... AND to put it bluntly, so there is absolutely NO questions.

Ant - your bike understeers, you will have to address that or steer a bit harder to compensate if that is how you like it.

Andy - your bike is UNSAFE!!! at anything other than a slower pace. Get whatever is going on in the front addressed and start with a new front tire then continue addressing it until the bike holds it's line on it's own (no bar pressure) while mid corner + until exit. Tires, forks, suspension, I can't pinpoint the issue in the 4 laps that I did on your machine. Sorry I did look but didn't find anything to alert you while face to face. But when we chatted you acknowledged that you would get a new tire(s) before you next track day. I am hoping it's as simple as that.
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