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Old August 7th, 2019, 09:18 AM   #201
Ducati999
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I find it hard to believe, with all the racers and track riders on this forum, that no one had anything to say about my riding. I see a few things that I will address in another post but I was really hoping for some positive and negative feedback from those that know more than I do about riding.
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Old August 7th, 2019, 01:24 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I find it hard to believe, with all the racers and track riders on this forum, that no one had anything to say about my riding. I see a few things that I will address in another post but I was really hoping for some positive and negative feedback from those that know more than I do about riding.
seems like it's crickets for the both of us. Lots of views, but little to no commentary. I enjoyed talking to you about your issues and breakthroughs this weekend, but I don't have the skill and the knowledge to critique you
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Old August 7th, 2019, 07:25 PM   #203
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On-board video is not as helpful as from rider ahead or following you.

Ant's been making great progress since beginning of this thread. Really only thing needed is lots more track time. Every 100-hrs on track is good time for review and check-in. I send all videos in to my coaches and don't hear back that often unless there's something obvious that needs correcting. Otherwise, it's getting in the hours that's important.

One thing you can work on is hitting apexes more precisely; some of them are off by 4-5 feet. And making your lines consistent lap after lap. Maybe slow down bit if needed.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 10th, 2019 at 01:47 AM.
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Old August 8th, 2019, 04:16 PM   #204
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sounds like, and i could be wrong, its like your running a gear to high.
seams the motor should wind up a lot faster on corner exit , its all about feet per second, as you exit your last turn its a drag race to the next.
i do admit i watched ony a few laps.
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Old August 9th, 2019, 03:00 PM   #205
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sounds like, and i could be wrong, its like your running a gear to high.
seams the motor should wind up a lot faster on corner exit , its all about feet per second, as you exit your last turn its a drag race to the next.
i do admit i watched ony a few laps.
I have a big V-twin Ducati so it will rev a little slower than the I-4 bikes as 10,000 RPM is all I get. I was not opening the throttle to 100% after the corner so I would not have to upshift before the next turn. I was working on being smooth with my throttle roll on and working on an issue I had been experiencing while leaned over. I had just figured out the issue and was trying to run some smooth laps. I will work on hitting the apexes tighter as you suggested and I am going to try to run the entire track in 4th gear so I can stay on the power longer and carry more speed.
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Old August 10th, 2019, 01:45 AM   #206
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Old August 13th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #207
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The quick and the raw from my review of the vid.

Turn rate is pretty good but still a bit too slow to up the entry speed much more with same confidence
Move your hands/fingers more often to keep good blood flow and looseness on the bars
There is a hesitation when your bikes goes from full lean from side to side (most likely your body position catching up to the bike vs being ahead of the bike... aka, "hip flick") You can literally see the bars wiggle and the chassis become unstable, smooth out your bp movements cause its kinda choppy
Hit the hard apex of turn 3 more often

Overall nice job hitting the lines
So happy to see that rider's lines in front of you don't become yours
Keep doing what your doing to improve, this is much better riding vs the last time we talked. Maybe you just like this track more or are more comfortable with the layout/flow.

Well done sir, keep having fun!
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Old August 15th, 2019, 01:34 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
The quick and the raw from my review of the vid.

Turn rate is pretty good but still a bit too slow to up the entry speed much more with same confidence
Move your hands/fingers more often to keep good blood flow and looseness on the bars
There is a hesitation when your bikes goes from full lean from side to side (most likely your body position catching up to the bike vs being ahead of the bike... aka, "hip flick") You can literally see the bars wiggle and the chassis become unstable, smooth out your bp movements cause its kinda choppy
Hit the hard apex of turn 3 more often

Overall nice job hitting the lines
So happy to see that rider's lines in front of you don't become yours
Keep doing what your doing to improve, this is much better riding vs the last time we talked. Maybe you just like this track more or are more comfortable with the layout/flow.

Well done sir, keep having fun!

Chris,
Thank you for taking the time to review my video, I know how busy you are right now. I will take all your advice to heart and continue to apply it to the track.

PS: I am only more comfortable with Palmer because it is the only track life seems to allow me to ride!
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Old August 23rd, 2019, 08:11 PM   #209
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A lot of people recommend dirt riding as that takes the traction to a very low state. You will slide the front and you will side the rear on dirt. I have done a small amount of dirt riding for this purpose and find that there are things to be learned for sure from it. I think I would do more dirt riding if I had a place to do it more often but what I really preferred was kart tracking a mini sumo. An XR100 on BT45s on a kart track is a really decent analog to the big track. The little bike flexes and squirms, the front and rear tires slide, and you can feel all of it at 35-45 mpg instead of 90. Because the little suckers have NO power you have to work on really maintaining corner speed to go fast and the brakes are so HORRIBLE you have to manage your entry to get it right. And because they weigh nothing, each movement of your body, each input is magnified. I LOVE kart track work on a mini sumo for inexpensive craft training work.
Definitely agree. I really want to learn so dirt/ asphalt skills but also struggle to find a play venue. Living in the city, dwelling property-less in an urban apartment, dirt track searches find mostly motocross tracks. Would love to find a dirt parking lot free of parkers to do some traction experiments with a grom. Attempts have been socially disenfrancising.. open to hot tips if yall have found any undiscovered playgrounds.
For now i have found a local kart track that is accepting of minibikes. It is a start, but I’m not to the broken traction threshold yet. Karters threaten my continuing participation when I suggest “dirty” corners.
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Old August 24th, 2019, 07:07 AM   #210
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@MichaelDanger, I also would love to ride a small cc bike on a Kart track. I have not found a track local to me that has a policy of allowing bike to participate. I would buy an XR or another KX80 in a minute if I had such a place to practice. I did have a company that would allow me to ride on their fence enclosed lot for a summer. That was for a single year then they decided the risk of liability was too great. I did a lot of dirt bike riding on many track in my youth but have not in several years. I have an invitation to race in a Trail type MX race this fall while I am in the Philippines but am having reservations because I dont like the idea of major injury while on vacation. What I should and probly will do is to run the race at 65/70% pace to be as safe as possible and just accept the results.
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Old August 24th, 2019, 04:28 PM   #211
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Seen it trackday photos all the time

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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
When you bike is set up well, it takes 0% bar pressure + good throttle control to hold your line. To stop turning, simply stop pushing the bar to once your line is set.
Commonly seen in trackday photos where the ride has their knee on the deck, looking at the camera, one hand on the bar, giving a thumbs up to the photographer.

Granted there are few times during a lap we are at steady state like this but you point out an important fact. We often perceive things as more work than they really are.

Awesome thread for this newcomer...
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Old August 26th, 2019, 02:08 PM   #212
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Sorry for the dead video, The link is correct but you can search Youtube for "Palmer 8 5 Final" or try this linky copied directly from their page
https://youtu.be/eyCbFbw4m1Y
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Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I find it hard to believe, with all the racers and track riders on this forum, that no one had anything to say about my riding. I see a few things that I will address in another post but I was really hoping for some positive and negative feedback from those that know more than I do about riding.
OK I took a look at some of your laps and have a few questions for you regarding your riding. One, when you get on the gas in the corners, once you crack it on are you rolling it on "smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn" or are there places where you are holding the throttle steady and not rolling on?

Are you hitting apexes consistently and accurately or are there places (right turns) where you are inconsistent and far from the apex?

Let's start there
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Old August 28th, 2019, 01:31 PM   #213
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OK I took a look at some of your laps and have a few questions for you regarding your riding. One, when you get on the gas in the corners, once you crack it on are you rolling it on "smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn" or are there places where you are holding the throttle steady and not rolling on?

Are you hitting apexes consistently and accurately or are there places (right turns) where you are inconsistent and far from the apex?

Let's start there
@Misti,
As always thank you for taking the time to review my video. Before I answer all your questions I must revamp what had happened on this day. All weekend I was experiencing an issue with the bike not wanting to turn in as much as I wanted. We both know that the bike is usually not to blame at my level since it is so much more capable than I. Just before this video was shot, I found that the problem was caused by me putting too much pressure on the bars as I was using them to hold on rather than my leg and lower body. Over the past few seasons I have not been able to ride much more than my 2 two day track trips and late last year my knees were bothering me so I moved my foot pegs back and down 1 space each direction < + v. The new location for the rearsets helped with my knees but had the adverse effect of me placing more weight on my hands. The extra weight on my hands did not matter last season as it was cold and wet so the pace was slower. Once we got out there this season on a hot dry track, the issue I described began to show its head and caused some scary moments. I had a really scary (to me) front wheel slide in turn 5 and a few times I ran really wide late in the turn. Once I figured this out most of the final track day had passed and the video is of my last session of the last day. I had just figured out the issue the prior session and was just getting used to the new "CONTROL" I had regained with the changes.

Now onto your questions,
I was 100% intentionally stopping my roll on once the bike was (Nearly) vertical so I could concentrate on corner entry and keeping my weight off of the bars. I know this is not what you are asking about but there have been others who commented on this earlier. I am still having a little trouble with both getting on the gas early enough and consistently rolling on thru the remainder of the turn. Getting on the gas earlier was improving the more I rode the track but the issue I had with not being able to get to the lean angle I expected was also keeping me from continuing to roll on thru the remainder of the turn.

My lack of riding time over the last few years coupled with the issue of too much body weight/input into the bars has really held me back. I feel if I had another track day, you would see significant improvement as I could continue to get comfortable with the bike turning as it should which would allow me to set my line earlier and get on the gas earlier while keeping the roll on thru the turn. I have been practicing this on the street--at much safer speeds--as much as possible since I found this issue.

As for your final question about hitting the apex more often, As my confidence grows from the newly regained control after solving my issue, this too will improve significantly. Should you have time, look at the lines in my older videos posted in this thread (same track Palmer) and you will see how much better they have gotten as I regained confidence in the front end grip. Now with confidence in the front, better lines and the return of actual control of the bike, I think next trip will be better than any so far. I know what to do just need to apply it and figure out the next issue.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 05:56 AM   #214
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Just a quick check in since I have so little time to be on this wonderful forum now a days. I have been working on the issues all you skilled track riders and teachers have pointed out so gracefully. I may not have much time to attend all the track days as I would like but I am trying to formulate a plan to increase the learning time each chance I get to ride on the street. Some of you know me personally so for the rest of you, I assure you that my street riding is all done at 60% or less of what I would do on the track. Most of my street riding is done on back woods farm type roads with minimal traffic and safety is my primary concern. I am NOT out there riding like a maniac risking my life nor my license so please remember this when reading what I am planning below. We are all aware that you can drag your knee on the ground at 30 mph in a parking lot and dont have to pretend you are taking the corkscrew at Laguna Seca raceway. All I am saying is that what I propose attempting below will be done safely away from other road users and mostly in the back corner of an empty parking lot.

Since I have 2 similar bikes (same geometry but different tires) I tend to leave the 999 in race trim and run the 916 on the street. The bikes have been set up as similar as possible even to the point of having the same rearsets at the same height/position and I measured the bars to assure they have the same angle and position. Ride height, rake, trail, suspension and even seat position is as close as possible to keep them as similar as possible for learning purposes. I do have a 190 Dunlop on the rear of the 999 VS the 180 Pirelli on the 916 but this will be changed shortly.

I am quickly running out of time so I will list my first "plan" and ask that you give me your thoughts and then I will adjust if necessary and add further "training" stratagies later.

#1: I have been trying to ride more in the rain. Using the limited traction provided by the wet pavement to allow me to safely find the limits of traction. I have been doing this solely on acceleration after a turn. Mostly I just go to my favorite newly paved parking lot and do a double apex around an "island" and as I lift the bike upright I practice my roll on faster and faster until I get some wheel spin. Then I try to get better acceleration with less spin. Doing this in the rain makes throttle control every important and I think will teach me more than running thru twisties at 70% speed on dry pavement.

PLEASE DISCUSS
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Old August 31st, 2019, 10:56 PM   #215
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This is cause-and-effect issue and you're looking at working on side-effects, not actual problem. It won't relate and I suggest backing up and looking at earlier factors that's actual cause of your exit issues.

First, why wet parking-lot practice won't transfer to dry racetrack. There's HUGE difference between bike's behavior at 45mph in wet lot versus 125mph on dry track. At low wet speeds, it will be very easy to break traction. The muscle-memory you develop as far as amount of throttle-twisting and correction amounts in steering and body-english will be completely different than what's required on track at higher speed.

Other thing is lean-angle. Due to low-speeds and low-traction, you'll be leaned over 15-20 degrees max in wet lot when breaking rear traction. On track, it'll be more like 50-55 degrees. Your finely calibrated sensors, inner ears, will know. If you tune them for 15-20 degrees in wet lot, they'll be completely unfamiliar with 50-55 degrees at higher speeds (ears also detects acceleration).

Which leads us back to real cause of your issues, corner-setup and entry. As you go faster into corner by having higher top-speed on previous straight and braking later, you are still covering same exact same distances through corner, from turn-in to apex to exit, but in less time. What does that mean?

Everything that happens after turn-in must occur faster! So tip-in speed from full-upright to full-lean must happen faster in order to carve same line at faster speed. And because you're going faster around curve, you have to lean more! You have to go from full-upright to leaning more in less time than previously at lower speed. That's why you are going wide and missing your apexes. The faster you go while not leaning over faster and farther, means you'll miss apexes by more and more.

This missing apexes and going wide is why you can't get on throttle sooner and 100% by exit of corner. You feel yourself being pushed off-course with not enough room to give it more throttle. So I recommend following:

- get more track-time
- practice getting from full-upright to full-lean faster
, push harder and faster on inside bar
- practice leaning over more, you've still got another 15-20 degrees before you're at limit


The types of improvements you're after takes lots of repetition with incremental progress. Like any other sporting skill such as basketball, tennis, archery, golf, etc., it requires tonnes of practice. People don't realize that it took DECADES of practice for Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or even Valentino Rossi to reach their skill levels. DECADES of practice, almost every single day!

So I get as much practice as possible. It takes 100-laps to make X-improvement and 200-laps to get Y-improvement. There's no shortcuts. I get in 45-50 days at track each year along with most of my racing colleagues. I chopped off 20s/lap at Thunderhill my 1st year, then 15s/lap 2nd year, 7s/lap this year. And I'm still 7s/lap off from 250 record. I may chop off 3s next year, 2s year after, and 1s year after that if I keep on going 45-50 days/year. In 5-years I may have shot at lap-record, maybe. Those who spent less time at track have made lesser improvements. I'm now 5s faster than guy that beat me in my 1st race (he only gets in 20 day@track/year). It's just matter of putting in required time and laps.

Good help is watching video "Winning" about Paul Newman! Also extremely helpful to watch others on similar bikes and slightly faster at same tracks you're visting. Note where they brake, turn-in, apex, get on throttle, etc. Get a feel for the timing, the tip-in speed, throttle-control, etc. I find it especially helpful to watch videos of guys I'm racing against!

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 1st, 2019 at 12:26 AM.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 07:23 AM   #216
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^^ Interesting post. Not very promising for those who don't have decades of riding ahead of us, but interesting anyways.

I guess it depends too on how much risk one's willing to take on each corner. How often do you lay your bike down, @DannoXYZ?

I have fun practicing on the parking lot as well, even if not to useful on the track.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 08:11 AM   #217
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This is cause-and-effect issue and you're looking at working on side-effects, not actual problem. It won't relate and I suggest backing up and looking at earlier factors that's actual cause of your exit issues.

First, why wet parking-lot practice won't transfer to dry racetrack. There's HUGE difference between bike's behavior at 45mph in wet lot versus 125mph on dry track. At low wet speeds, it will be very easy to break traction. The muscle-memory you develop as far as amount of throttle-twisting and correction amounts in steering and body-english will be completely different than what's required on track at higher speed.

Other thing is lean-angle. Due to low-speeds and low-traction, you'll be leaned over 15-20 degrees max in wet lot when breaking rear traction. On track, it'll be more like 50-55 degrees. Your finely calibrated sensors, inner ears, will know. If you tune them for 15-20 degrees in wet lot, they'll be completely unfamiliar with 50-55 degrees at higher speeds (ears also detects acceleration).

Which leads us back to real cause of your issues, corner-setup and entry. As you go faster into corner by having higher top-speed on previous straight and braking later, you are still covering same exact same distances through corner, from turn-in to apex to exit, but in less time. What does that mean?

Everything that happens after turn-in must occur faster! So tip-in speed from full-upright to full-lean must happen faster in order to carve same line at faster speed. And because you're going faster around curve, you have to lean more! You have to go from full-upright to leaning more in less time than previously at lower speed. That's why you are going wide and missing your apexes. The faster you go while not leaning over faster and farther, means you'll miss apexes by more and more.

This missing apexes and going wide is why you can't get on throttle sooner and 100% by exit of corner. You feel yourself being pushed off-course with not enough room to give it more throttle. So I recommend following:

- get more track-time
- practice getting from full-upright to full-lean faster
, push harder and faster on inside bar
- practice leaning over more, you've still got another 15-20 degrees before you're at limit


The types of improvements you're after takes lots of repetition with incremental progress. Like any other sporting skill such as basketball, tennis, archery, golf, etc., it requires tonnes of practice. People don't realize that it took DECADES of practice for Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or even Valentino Rossi to reach their skill levels. DECADES of practice, almost every single day!

So I get as much practice as possible. It takes 100-laps to make X-improvement and 200-laps to get Y-improvement. There's no shortcuts. I get in 45-50 days at track each year along with most of my racing colleagues. I chopped off 20s/lap at Thunderhill my 1st year, then 15s/lap 2nd year, 7s/lap this year. And I'm still 7s/lap off from 250 record. I may chop off 3s next year, 2s year after, and 1s year after that if I keep on going 45-50 days/year. In 5-years I may have shot at lap-record, maybe. Those who spent less time at track have made lesser improvements. I'm now 5s faster than guy that beat me in my 1st race (he only gets in 20 day@track/year). It's just matter of putting in required time and laps.

Good help is watching video "Winning" about Paul Newman! Also extremely helpful to watch others on similar bikes and slightly faster at same tracks you're visting. Note where they brake, turn-in, apex, get on throttle, etc. Get a feel for the timing, the tip-in speed, throttle-control, etc. I find it especially helpful to watch videos of guys I'm racing against!

I agree with 99% of what you say. I simply dont have the time nor oppertunity to to ride on any track 1/2 as much as you do. My thoughts on riding in the rain was not to handle the bike at 120mph, but to get back the feeling from the contact patches I have been missing. Lots of racers ride in the dirt to get a better sense of traction and that is where my thoughts were not with actual direct transfer to the race track. I appreciate your feedback on this idea and understand the limits of its practicallity. 3 years ago I was lapping much faster with more lean angle than I currently am doing. I had several years where life prevented me from riding more than a few hours a year during that time. Since I had such limited time on any bike at any speed during those years, I lost a lot of the feel for what the bike was doing and my skills got really rusty. The limited riding along with a few subtle changes to the bikes setup further hurt my riding. Since I was just starting to track ride seriously when all this happened, I have gone backwards quite a bit and know I am capable of much more than I have been doing these last few trips. I have not touched my knee down in three years of track trips yet before all these issues, I was dragging my knee too much and was advised to lift my knee and just use it as a reference. I am trying to get back to the confidence in the feedback from the bike so I can again run the same lean angles I once was easily able to achieve. Listed in one of the posts above I describe the major issue I was having with not being locked onto the bike like before. I am so happy to have found this issue as now I will be able to advance with all the advice you and others have been so friendly to give me.

Others have also pointed out that my turn in is too slow. I have been working on this since my last track trip. I was experiencing the bike refusing to turn past a point, no matter how hard I tried, once I entered a turn. This was caused by my not being locked onto the bike and putting too much weight on my hands to support my body once a certain lean angle was achieved. Since I was only able to lean the bike so far, I would hesitate on turn entry because I was unsure I would make the turn due to the "steering lock" issue. I have resolved this now and am just beginning to regain my confidence. As stated before, I used to be faster and lean farther but I was less smooth with my inputs and less consistent on lines. The video was to show that I had improved since last time out and that I am getting a bit better but still a long way to go.

I fully agree with you an the lazy steering, and poor corner finish. I am trying to get this all back in order in my head. There is still a bit of worry when I enter a turn from when I was not sure if I would make it thru if the steering issue would arise again. I know I have this solved I just have to get my mind to reprogram and allow me to just relax and start riding correctly again.

I would like your feedback on what I said above about riding in the rain. I agree it is not the perfect practice for the track but much like dirt riding, I feel it can help deal with traction loss. I dont have the time nor facilities to ride dirt anymore so this is the next best thing I could come up with besides just street riding. There is too much traffic here to ride at anything more than 5mph over the posted limit.

@DannoXYZ I do really appreciate you taking the time to write out what you did and I take all advice and criticism to hart as I want to improve. I am at a good point right now and think you will see much improvement next season when I post my next video. I am going to get a membership for the track for next year so I will have to ride more than 5 track days for it to be worth the investment. I have not done more than 4 track days in a season in the last 4 years. I have also made it a priority to ride my bike on the street every chance I get and take every oppertunity to practice all the things you and others have pointed out.

Thank you
Anthony
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Old September 1st, 2019, 08:22 AM   #218
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^^ Interesting post. Not very promising for those who don't have decades of riding ahead of us, but interesting anyways.

I guess it depends too on how much risk one's willing to take on each corner. How often do you lay your bike down, @DannoXYZ?

I have fun practicing on the parking lot as well, even if not to useful on the track.
@Topaz,
There is no substitution for experience. I also dont have decades to practice but my goal is not to be world champion. Set a realistic goal for yourself and work towards that at your own pace. Wish I was young enough to race but at nearly 50 there is little hope for that now. I set my goal to be a better and safer rider. I have the rest of my time riding to achieve this goal. Just like most people getting to work the next day is more important that setting world records to me so I have to move forward at baby steps. We both have the good fortune to have the resource of this forum and the great people here to help us achieve our goals. Just ride and enjoy your bike and improve as quickly as your plan allows. I started as a new track rider approx 30 track days ago and I am now just a little below pace to ride with the second fastest group. I hope by the end of next season I will be riding in the Blue group but I am happy with Yellow now!
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Old September 1st, 2019, 11:37 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
^^ Interesting post. Not very promising for those who don't have decades of riding ahead of us, but interesting anyways.

I guess it depends too on how much risk one's willing to take on each corner. How often do you lay your bike down, @DannoXYZ?

I have fun practicing on the parking lot as well, even if not to useful on the track.
I’ve crashed twice in my 3-yrs of track riding. Once my 1st year from being too impatient in T2 @ Thunderhill and whacking throttle to 100% in middle of corner. Second time was 2nd year at Buttonwillow when guy on liter-bike blasted by me on straight, pulled over in front me and slammed on his brakes. It was at least 100m before my braking marker and I was still at 100% throttle. Luckily he was so close to me that I just rear-ended him and flew onto his bike and landed on him. Basically sat on him and his bike as we crashed.

I don’t think you have to crash to make progress. That’s why track is so much safer than doing things on streets. You can go 85-95% and make 0.1% improvements incrementally. I’m not saying he should go 110% faster and just toss his bike into corners. But maybe back off tiny bit on speed and trying to go faster. Work on a little more tip-in speed and a tiny bit more lean-angle each lap. Higher speeds and faster lap-times will happen as side effect of this practice. More on this later.
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Old September 3rd, 2019, 08:49 AM   #220
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Im back again to update this thread. I have spent lots of time thinking about the way I have been riding and what is holding me back. The biggest issue is fear. We all have survival instincts that trigger in certain situations while riding that keep us from doing what we know we should be doing. I have found a few and am working on resolving them in my head and on the street. I doubt I will be on any race track again until May 2020 so this is all I have to work with for now.

I have covered the issue with not being able to hold onto the bike causing mid turn issues and I believe I have this fully sorted now. I still have to get used to trusting that the bike will turn properly but since the issue is gone this should not take long. I still don't have enough confidence in the front feel/grip level but as I slowly get used to the bike turning this should return.

Something I read by @csmith12 recently, really changed my way of thinking about how I ride. @csmith12 said "When I ride I am always either on the brakes or the throttle" (quoted from memory but you get the picture). I have not been riding on the track like this, I do too much coasting and maintenance throttle. Lets take the entry to turn 4 at Palmer, an uphill right hander into a late apex 90 degree turn. I approach at approx. 80-85 mph, roll off earlier than I should turn in around my marker and hold just enough throttle to keep from decelerating then wait for some point where my brain says I can make the turn and begin roll on past the apex. I need to brake some then lean into this turn and apply throttle. Not sure why I don't do this but I have to stop relying on engine braking and use the actual brakes to be more consistent at turn entry. This is just one example of what I am seeing in my videos that needs work.

Several people have pointed out that I am making all my inputs too slowly. My turn in is not fast enough and this is effecting the rest of the turn. I have been riding on the track the same way I ride on the road just faster, I need to stop being extra cautious and get more aggressive. On the street, I always ride gently (different than smooth) because you cant trust the road surface to have the grip you may suspect is there. I can ride a quick street pace and still be fairly cautious but this does not translate to the track. I know I can ride like I should but need to get over the "road" programming in my head.

The final Issue I have is the power of my bike. Since I don't know where the maximum level of traction is, I always roll on less than I should to prevent breaking the rear tire free or pushing the front. When I rode my wifes 250 on the Palmer track I had no issue running hard and was much better with roll on and even braking into turns. I have to stop being a pussy with the controls and just ride it like it should be done. Again many of the problems over the last few years like, limited riding time, hanging front calipers, poor body position and all the rest have taken me backwards a little but I really feel I have some of it sorted and most of it figured out now I just have to apply what I have learned. 2020 should be a really incredible season for me.

I am also planning on doing a bit of dirt bike riding which should help me practice some of these things and get used to the bike sliding and moving around under me.
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Old September 3rd, 2019, 03:32 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
...what is holding me back. The biggest issue is fear. We all have survival instincts that trigger in certain situations...

... I have covered the issue with not being able to hold onto the bike causing mid turn issues and I believe I have this fully sorted now. I still have to get used to trusting that the bike will turn properly but since the issue is gone this should not take long. I still don't have enough confidence in the front feel/grip level but as I slowly get used to the bike turning this should return.

... I do too much coasting and maintenance throttle. Lets take the entry to turn 4 at Palmer, an uphill right hander into a late apex 90 degree turn.

...I need to brake some then lean into this turn and apply throttle.

...Several people have pointed out that I am making all my inputs too slowly. My turn in is not fast enough and this is effecting the rest of the turn. I have been riding on the track the same way I ride on the road just faster, I need to stop being extra cautious and get more aggressive. ...


... The final Issue I have is the power of my bike. Since I don't know where the maximum level of traction is, I always roll on less than I should to prevent breaking the rear tire free or pushing the front. When I rode my wifes 250 on the Palmer track I had no issue running hard and was much better with roll on and even braking into turns. ...

... I am also planning on doing a bit of dirt bike riding which should help me practice some of these things and get used to the bike sliding and moving around under me.
Here's my observations and suggestions...

Laws of physics being what they are... bigger heavier bikes will always give less feedback and tyre "feel"... at the limit. What you describe as lack of "feel" is perfectly normal because you're not at limits of traction. What happens at limit is handlebars go numb with additional input when you're at limit; there's lack of response because tyres no longer push back since they have no more traction. On big bikes, their additional weight pushed tyres to limit and very little additional steering on bars is needed to send them over. On smaller bikes, since there's less weight, more of steering is used at limit and more kickback/feedback is present. Also when you go over limit, it's easier to catch on lighter bike.

I recommend you do more dry parking-lot practice on 250. You will learn faster tip-in, more lean-angle and better feel at limit in less time; months rather than years. This has been proven over and over again with numerous riders. Many of pro-racers have started on 250s with our AFM Racing club; maybe you've heard of Eddie Lawson, Wayne Rainey, Kenny Roberts, etc...

Do standard gymkhana practice cone-setups: ovals with 2-cones, figure-8s with 2/3-cones, boxes with 4-cones, etc. Practice going from full-upright to full-lean quicker and quicker, while always staying in your comfort-zone so you don't trigger fear responses. That causes arm lock-ups and hanging on too tight which just makes things worse and causes negative backwards progress.

Don't worry about tyre "feel" at limit, you're trying to jump ahead too far too quickly. Get to point where you can ride up to limit without fear first, then you'll have reserve brain-capacity to take in data and process it without going into survival mode. Rossi's telemetry shows his HR is calm and steady up to and over tyre's limits, it's like he's kicking back and watching TV on sofa! Cool as cucumber!


Figure-8s are good because you practice going from full-lean on one side to full-lean on other.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.


Then this becomes fun instead of terrifying!

Link to original page on YouTube.

https://www.facebook.com/motogymkhana.adventures/


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Old September 18th, 2019, 02:21 PM   #222
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Im back again to update this thread. I have spent lots of time thinking about the way I have been riding and what is holding me back. The biggest issue is fear. We all have survival instincts that trigger in certain situations while riding that keep us from doing what we know we should be doing. I have found a few and am working on resolving them in my head and on the street.
Hey you!! I don't have much time but it's on my list to go back through this thread and comment on a few separate posts and a few points so that will come....in the mean time, I read the first bit of your comment here and it reminded me that I wrote a whole article on the concept of fear when riding. I've copied it and will paste it in it's entirely below. I know that you are already doing some of the things suggested in the article I just thought it might be pertinent to some of the things you are feeling....anyway, here you go and I'll be back at some point to discuss more

Overcoming Fear:

When you really boil it down, what is the biggest cause of fear when riding?

Fear is an unpleasant and usually strong emotion based on the anticipation of danger. Our bodies react automatically to this perception of danger and try to protect us, but when we ride motorcycles, our reactions often cause more harm than good. Keith Code, author of the renowned Twist of the Wrist series, calls these “survival reactions.”

The seven survival reactions (Listed in Twist of the Wrist II) are:

Rolling-off the gas.
Tightening on the bars.
Narrowed and frantically hunting field of view.
Fixed attention (on something).
Steering in the direction of the fixed attention.
No steering (frozen) or ineffective (not quick enough or too early steering).
Braking errors (both over and under braking).

Take for example, the fear that arises when you feel like you are suddenly into a corner too fast. What survival reaction, or automatic reaction crops up? Without our brains telling us to do so, our wrist often reacts by chopping the gas (survival reaction number 1) in hopes that this will reduce the possibility of danger and personal injury. However, chopping the gas is actually the exact opposite of what should be done in that situation and often increases the chance of running wide, or crashing mid corner.

What are other examples of survival reactions and fear when riding? Another common scenario is getting into a corner with a perceived too-high entry speed and then target fixating on the guard rail or the outside edge of the road and riding towards it, or riding towards the patch of gravel or oil mid corner because you can’t stop staring at it.

So can anything be done to reduce the chance that these survival reactions happen in the first place?

We tend to fear the things we don’t truly understand. If that’s the case then lack of knowledge, experience and expertise could contribute to an increase in fear and fear based reactions. So, in order to lessen the amount of fear it seems only logical that an increase in our understanding of riding skills and techniques would be able to lesson overall riding based anxiety or fear.

Wouldn’t it be amazing if when riding, we could eliminate some or all of those scary or panicky moments and cut down the chances of survival reactions happening all together?

Like if you were riding and found yourself mid corner too fast but you KNEW and had trained yourself how to NOT fixate on the edge of the road and to look ahead and through the corner instead, without even thinking about it.

Or like knowing that you can trust your tires beyond your comfort zone, or exactly how hard and fast you can get on the front brake before it will lock up or how to squeeze the tank to prevent your body from slamming forward under hard braking. Like knowing that if the rear end starts sliding that you should NOT chop the gas and that instead you should either stop rolling on or gently ease of the gas to prevent a highside.

The more you actually know and understand about riding, the more you have learned and practiced how to react correctly, the more likely you are to not have those fear based instincts that actually make situations worse. It’s not the things, or the situations causing the fear, but the lack of understanding and knowledge in that exact situation to know what to do. Since becoming a coach and increasing my knowledge base AND practicing these techniques often, I’ve drastically reduced fear, panic, and survival reactions because I know what to do in most situations that arise.

When is the last time you practiced a panic stop, or visual skills, or how to turn the bike as quick and effectively as possible in case you have to avoid sudden obstacles?

People fear what they don’t know or understand. So, to ride with less fear we must understand more. But how do you do that?

There are many ways. Reading this is a start. Reading everything you can about motorcycle riding technique from a trusted source can help. Going to a track day and working with one of the provided coaches is a safe way to learn new techniques. Taking an advanced riding course and then continually working on improving your own riding and practicing what you learned is an outstanding method.

Make sure your bike and suspension are set up for your weight and correctly for you and the conditions you will be riding in. Pay attention, study, ask pertinent questions, adjust as needed from self awareness and experience. Be open minded and willing to learn and to continue to learn and improve. Practice something every time you ride and leave your ego at home. Riding should be considered a skill that needs continual improvement, focus and work, and don’t forget to practice, practice, practice.

Ride Safe!
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