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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:57 PM   #1
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Arrow "Good and bad" friction in motorcycling: mention some

Copied from
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction

"Friction is a force that opposes or resists the relative motion of solid surfaces, fluid layers, and material elements sliding against each other."

That force is silently but relentlessly present in riding, as well as inside and outside our machines.

The "good" friction is beneficial: what do we do to get more of it?
What do we do to reduce the "bad" friction?

Mention some of the bad and good ways in which friction works in a motorcycle: there are many; possibly more than what some members imagine.

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Old January 7th, 2017, 06:11 PM   #2
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clutch plates
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Old January 7th, 2017, 06:21 PM   #3
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Good friction: tires on pavement, tires on rim, nuts and bolts staying tight (sometimes aided by Loctite, lock washers, etc), butt on seat, gloves on handlebar, boots on pegs, clutch plates on each other, brake pads on disks, bearing races pressed in their bores

Bad friction: just about everywhere else, lubricants, balls, rollers used to decrease it
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Old January 7th, 2017, 11:18 PM   #4
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Jim nailed it. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote:
The "good" friction is beneficial: what do we do to get more of it?
To increase friction, we must change the shape of the two surfaces moving against each other in such a manner that creates traction. A good example of this would be sharp metal footpegs and soft rubber boots. Or sticky tires on dry pavement. Proper brake pad compound to encourage grip.

Quote:
What do we do to reduce the "bad" friction?
To decrease [bad] friction we could introduce a lubricant. An example of this would be the grease contained in a bearing. Or the oil in your engine, suspension, or steering mechanisms.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 01:19 AM   #5
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Mmmm, surface treatments.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old January 8th, 2017, 07:53 AM   #6
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Old January 8th, 2017, 05:48 PM   #7
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Bad Friction: My skin sliding across pavement.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 06:26 PM   #8
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Good one, Tom! I've always noticed that falling onto an ice rink while going 30 mph is painless, compared to a similar fall onto dry pavement at the same speed.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #9
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For me the worst friction is air friction on bodywork. Then bearing friction as drag and tire friction. To counter the bad I reduce frontal area and remove bumps that disturb airflow. For bearings I use world wide bearings. ( shameless plug for sponsor). And for tires I have minimal tread and over pressure.

Good friction is clutch disc friction. Piston ring sealing and bolts staying tight.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 06:56 PM   #10
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I'd bet that most of the losses from air are from pressure, rather than friction. That is high pressure forming in front of, and low pressure forming behind parts of the motorcycle and you.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 07:19 PM   #11
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Just a few

Too much "friction" on grips and pegs do not allow riders to move "effortlessly."
Be careful what you clean your seat(s) with, you don't want it too slick.
Watch your fork seals, if they leak on your rotors and then you ride, sure... it will burn off after the first couple of times hitting the brakes but it's destroying your pads.
Learn to lube your cables, friction is not good here.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Be careful what you clean your seat(s) with, you don't want it too slick.
Man, that's true! I once rode in a boat that had its seats coated with Armor All. Then I drove my Dodge van home. A few days later, with the van door open, I made a little running leap into the driver's seat, slid across the seat and onto the the floor behind the engine cover. I can't imagine what would happen if you used that stuff on a motorcycle seat.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 08:22 PM   #13
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All excellent posts above !!!

More bad friction examples:
1) Dirty pistons sliding back into the calipers when brake lever is released.

2) Increased stiction of the telescopic tubes and guides of front suspension during hard braking.

3) Power consumed by the pump to force coolant through the pipes, thermostat and radiator.

4) 212 X or O-rings rubbing against the steel plates of a poorly lubricated chain.

5) Intake air and exhaust gases flowing through air filter, throttles, manifolds and exhaust pipes (it is called pumping loses and pistons are the ones doing that work / It involves changes of pressure and volumes of air and gases also, not only friction; just like the aerodynamic loses).
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Old January 8th, 2017, 10:03 PM   #14
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Congrats on member of the year motofool. I voted for you.

All of your threads are very informative and I enjoy reading them.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 07:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I'd bet that most of the losses from air are from pressure, rather than friction. That is high pressure forming in front of, and low pressure forming behind parts of the motorcycle and you.
That is correct. But the friction of the air running down the sides is also a factor. The laminar flow is what I wish I could explore.

http://www.engineering.com/DesignSof...You-Drive.aspx

Air presssure is air friction. Also sound is friction. Or rather there is no sound without friction.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:55 AM   #16
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Air presssure is air friction. Also sound is friction. Or rather there is no sound without friction.
You had me up to that point. Air pressure and friction are two different things. Sound is air pressure waves that because of the nature of waves, have very little friction. Evidence of this is how far they can travel.

Air pressure waves acting on an ear drum move it because of the pressure changes at the drum's surface. The air is not actually grasping the ear drum using friction.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #17
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Pressure itself is not friction but air moving from high pressure to low would have friction. High-pressure pushing and low-pressure pulling I would not think is friction anymore then it is friction that causes your piston to move when gas is ignited in an internal combustion engine.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 11:16 AM   #18
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I believe that to get the air moving there must be a friction of some sort. Strumming of a guitar string or fingernails on a chalk board produce friction that begin the sound waves moving.

I think the turbulence on the sides are a result of air friction on the surface . I could be wrong on both counts but that is what learning is al about. Exelent discussion.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #19
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Air generally gets moving because of pressure differences. As an example, when you blow air out of your mouth, you use your diaphragm to squeeze your lungs and raise the pressure of the air in them a little, and it flows to a region of lower pressure in the room.

You're right that it's possible to get air moving by friction. If you move a piece of cardboard through the air, with it oriented for least resistance (aligned with the movement), some air will be dragged along with it by friction. But if you turn it sideways so it's oriented like a paddle, it will create a high pressure region in front of it and a low pressure region behind it, both tending to get air flowing in its direction of movement, and it will move a lot more air.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 04:09 PM   #20
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Yes, air loves sticking to solid surfaces.
Then the next layer of air molecules cannot stick that well and it slides a little over that one (relative movement and friction or viscosity effect happens between those two).
The next layer away from the solid surface resists the movement or disturbance due to inertia and also slides over the layer described above, and so on, until the molecules of air that are very far from the solid surface remain non-disturbed by the relative movement of the solid.

In order for a solid in movement to create a difference of static pressure, it must change the direction of the molecules, which is acceleration, which consumes energy.

It is all Coanda's fault:

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/coanda_effect.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coandă_effect

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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:12 PM   #21
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Congrats on member of the year motofool. I voted for you.
Thank you very much

Some more examples of good friction:

1) The friction between swingarm and bearings assembly, which prevents the rear wheel from sliding back and forth due to breaking and the pull of the chain, keeping the proper alignment.
That friction is proportional to the torque applied onto the axle-nut.

2) The friction between the handle of the cockpit and the exterior washer and internal neoprene disc, which keeps it in the position that we have selected.

3) The interference or press fit between the outer ring of the bearings and the aluminum casing of the wheels, crankcase, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_fit

4) Blade type male-female electrical connectors.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:22 PM   #22
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Wow this thread is getting pretty technical. I consider myself to be some form of engineer but regardless of job description and technical terms used to describe the thing being discussed, it's really all more the same than different. Knowledge is power, and all information is ultimately transferable from one circumstance to the next.

I think the simple term is "common sense" but these days it doesn't seem so common.

It's wonderful that we have reached a point in human history where we have the technology to freely communicate complex thoughts to people who are hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Sound, pressure, and friction are all variables.



I think that a very relative variable to consider is atmospheric density. We can all agree that a motorcycle runs quite differently depending on the weather condition.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 10:26 AM   #23
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Bad Friction: My skin sliding across pavement.
thread winner right there.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 10:56 AM   #24
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......... It's wonderful that we have reached a point in human history where we have the technology to freely communicate complex thoughts to people who are hundreds or thousands of miles away.
....

I think that a very relative variable to consider is atmospheric density. We can all agree that a motorcycle runs quite differently depending on the weather condition.
Yes, it is a wonderful thing that we did not have available back in the day: we had to dig into books and bust our knuckles wrenching.



Hot-humid weather not only reduces the performance of engines, but increases viscosity of the air (behavior that is opposite to the one for liquids, like oil).

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ity-d_601.html

Higher viscosity of the air means that it is a little harder for it to go through the air filter and intake passages.
The part of aerodynamic drag that depends on friction among layers of still air and the surfaces of the bike and rider, is also a little higher in hot weather.

Some compensation to the above comes from the fact of lower number of molecules (less density) have to be disturbed and pushed around by the bike while going through at high speeds.



Notice that is the density of air in this equation of drag force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient

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Old January 12th, 2017, 04:22 PM   #25
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Hot-humid weather not only reduces the performance of engines, but increases viscosity of the air (behavior that is opposite to the one for liquids, like oil).
Contrary to what you would think, humidity reduces air viscosity and density.

https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/f...d/jpcrd526.pdf
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Old January 12th, 2017, 05:47 PM   #26
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Contrary to what you would think, humidity reduces air viscosity and density.

https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/f...d/jpcrd526.pdf
Interesting, Jim.

It seems that the paper states that the viscosity increases with temperature for pure air, water steam and any mix alike.



Would you consider viscosity of the oils used in our bikes a form of internal friction between particle layers to keep the fluid moving?
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Old January 12th, 2017, 06:43 PM   #27
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Interesting, Jim.

It seems that the paper states that the viscosity increases with temperature for pure air, water steam and any mix alike.
Yes, but increasing the amount of gaseous water in air decreases its viscosity and density at a given temperature, and that's the interesting part to me. But the molecular weight of an H2O molecule is lower than that of diatomic nitrogen and oxygen, so it's not mysterious.

Quote:
Would you consider viscosity of the oils used in our bikes a form of internal friction between particle layers to keep the fluid moving?
I suppose viscosity is related to chains of molecules in liquid not wanting to slide over each other freely, so that would be considered friction. Viscosity is not something I've studied at a molecular level though, other than reading about things like molecular chain length and cross linking.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #28
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My understanding of the term "viscosity" is that it's frequently mis-used.

Just to be sure that we are on the same page -- let's imagine a simple example.

If one were to fill a cup with water, and another similar cup with a raw egg -- we can all agree that the cup full of raw egg (egg white and yolk) is 'thicker' than the cup full of water. It would take more effort to use a spoon to stir the cup with the egg in it than the cup with water in it.

Question -- which is considered "more" viscous? Or "higher viscosity?"
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Old January 12th, 2017, 10:49 PM   #29
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For what it's worth, if I run 0w-20 oil in my bike -- it's noticeably quicker.

If I run the standard 10w-40 oil in my bike, it's a little slower but engine wear is dramatically reduced.

Perhaps that's relevant.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 10:41 AM   #30
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.......... Question -- which is considered "more" viscous? Or "higher viscosity?"
Viscosity is a more complicated concept than friction and it has several ways to measure it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity

Could you mention examples of good and bad viscosity in our bikes?
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Old January 13th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #31
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I consider myself to be some form of engineer
Not to be an elitist jerk and not to start a whole discussion of merit through experience vs education...

...but no degree in engineering = not an engineer.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 07:38 PM   #32
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......not to start a whole discussion of merit through experience vs education...
Glad to have you in this thread, Chone; I have been waiting for your input about the many forms of friction.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 09:22 PM   #33
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This is an interesting thing to think about. Take two lumps
Of metal. Exactly the same weight and density. Form one lump
Into a ball. Form the other onto a needle with points at both ends. Now you have two pieces of metal with drastically different shapes . If you drop them both into a thin viscous liquid the needle will move faster. Because the ball has more frontal area and drag at the rear from the way fluids wrap around . But if you use a thicker liquid the needle slows down because there is more surface area along the sides. This friction or drag makes the needle go slower in the thick liquid.
Now take the same two shapes and use a medium viscosity liquid. But change the speed of each shape.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 09:23 PM   #34
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Friction and traction are interesting!
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Old January 13th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #35
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Fluid flow (laminar and turbulent) is really interesting, too.

Last futzed with by dcj13; January 13th, 2017 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Fixed tense.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 09:46 PM   #36
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer x View Post
This is an interesting thing to think about..........


Link to original page on YouTube.

Very interesting !!!
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #37
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A screw thread is a helical structure.
The development of a screw thread when unwound from the body of a screw is an inclined plane in which the inclination of the plane is equal to the helix angle of the thread.
If we consider the nut to be like a weight on that inclined plane, then the slope could make that weight slide down by itself.
Friction is the force that prevents that from happening.

Sufficient torque and locking devices try making that friction sufficiently high to avoid the nut or screw to get loose.

Coarse threads mean the slope of the plane is steeper, requiring more friction to avoid auto-unscrewing than fine threads.
That is the reason for which fine threads are mainly used in high vibration applications.

However, the crest of a coarse thread is stronger than the crest of a fine thread, reason for which coarse threads are use where stronger clamping force is needed.
In cases that require even more axial force, the V-shape thread is upgraded to a trapezoidal-shape thread (the type that you see in a bench vise or C-clamp.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/nut...tightening.htm

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/vibloose.htm



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