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Old March 7th, 2015, 09:49 AM   #1
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Arrow "Dead Red" Laws: Motorcycles Run Red Lights Legally

"Dead Red" Laws: Motorcycles Run Red Lights Legally

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Old March 7th, 2015, 01:09 PM   #2
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Here in ca, any light can be ran if its defective. I just wait two cycles, and if it doesnt turn, its defective. If a cop writes me a ticket for it, ill contest it. Theres no way id be seen as at fault for that.
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Old March 7th, 2015, 03:01 PM   #3
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Love that law in TN.. used it almost daily!!
Lights just don't like to change for 1 bike here...
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Old March 7th, 2015, 05:43 PM   #4
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Need that here. I have some lights i have to avoid on the bike. I have "run" the red at some spots before though. If a cop stopped me i would just try to explain and defend it in court if necessary. The cops are realy good around here though, if you not an ass to them, and would most likely just let you go.
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Old March 7th, 2015, 05:54 PM   #5
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Last year was the first year for this law in Illinois, half the lights in my town won't trigger with my bike.
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Old March 7th, 2015, 07:10 PM   #6
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Love that law in TN.. used it almost daily!!
Lights just don't like to change for 1 bike here...
I Will remember this when I am in TN. My mom is in Hillsboro/Manchester so I visit a couple times a year. You are just north of her.
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Old March 7th, 2015, 07:41 PM   #7
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I asked our Nevada Rider folks to clarify the "after two cycles". That makes sense if there is other traffic that'll trip the other lights or during the day when lights are on a timed cycle but if I'm sitting there alone in my direction, they never change for me or my direction. I asked when it was safe to run if it never cycled... I didn't get an answer.
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Old March 7th, 2015, 08:38 PM   #8
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Figures, Kentucky loves it's revenue

Although I have done it many times, worse case, I'll make the right, then do a u-turn.
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Old March 7th, 2015, 11:04 PM   #9
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I Will remember this when I am in TN. My mom is in Hillsboro/Manchester so I visit a couple times a year. You are just north of her.
Yeah.. shoot PM when out this way.. I'll take ya for a tour ride!!
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Old March 7th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #10
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Yeah.. shoot PM when out this way.. I'll take ya for a tour ride!!
Close to me as well,Manchester is about an hour and half away from me.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 12:21 AM   #11
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What about the meters getting onto the highway? I just stop at em like a stop sign when I'm there alone. or if there's hella people, I split and then go at the first green, whether it's the left dude or the right dude. Hopefully I ain't doin nuthin wrong..
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Old March 8th, 2015, 09:34 AM   #12
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What about the meters getting onto the highway? I just stop at em like a stop sign when I'm there alone. or if there's hella people, I split and then go at the first green, whether it's the left dude or the right dude. Hopefully I ain't doin nuthin wrong..
Motorcycles are allowed to use carpool lanes in WA, so it's rarely a problem.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 09:46 AM   #13
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Did it every single day for years until they updated the sensor.
eta with a car.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 11:52 AM   #14
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Motorcycles are allowed to use carpool lanes in WA, so it's rarely a problem.
They're allowed here too, but even the carpool lane is metered. It's not that big of a deal cuz it is only during rush hour, but still, I dnt wanna be getting pulled over for nothing.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 12:20 PM   #15
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but even the carpool lane is metered.


that's some industrial-grade stupid.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 12:45 PM   #16
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that's some industrial-grade stupid.
Yup..

The left lane would be carpool in this pic..

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Old March 9th, 2015, 03:23 PM   #17
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I wish Texas would enact one of these, but they won't. Instead, they enacted a law that requires that all signal lights be able to recognize the presence of a motorcycle. What happens when you find one that doesn't? Nothing. They very carefully made sure there was no enforcement provision in the law. Because of that, cities have zero incentive to actually fix lights that are in violation of the law. I've learned to just avoid lights on my regular commute. Oh, and I talked to a police officer and she said she'd for sure write me a ticket for running a malfunctioning light, even if she'd sat there and watched me stuck at it for ten minutes and knew that it wouldn't recognize my bike.
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Old March 9th, 2015, 11:01 PM   #18
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I've "run" probably 2 dozen lights here in the Bay Area. I've also had cops "escort" me through intersections for left turns that wouldn't trigger or stop briefly behind me to trigger them for me.

Here they don't even cycle. Some aren't timed, especially at night, so you'd be waiting for possibly hours for someone to come up behind you. So I just go. If someone pulls me over I'll plead my reasonable case.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 07:29 AM   #19
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I wish Texas would enact one of these, but they won't. Instead, they enacted a law that requires that all signal lights be able to recognize the presence of a motorcycle. What happens when you find one that doesn't? Nothing. They very carefully made sure there was no enforcement provision in the law. Because of that, cities have zero incentive to actually fix lights that are in violation of the law. I've learned to just avoid lights on my regular commute. Oh, and I talked to a police officer and she said she'd for sure write me a ticket for running a malfunctioning light, even if she'd sat there and watched me stuck at it for ten minutes and knew that it wouldn't recognize my bike.
Dang, that is terrible, and that officer sounds like a quality person with sound judgment.

Yet another reason to ride with a camera I guess... if the cop is that ignorant I would at least hope the judge wouldn't be.
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Old March 13th, 2015, 10:37 AM   #20
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You underestimate the ignorance of the law enforcement/judicial branch here in Texas. The judge would still find me guilty because by law it's a statutory violation to run the light, and the law has no provision for exceptions to that law. I had a friend once with a KZ1000 that he'd installed a Kirker 4-1 header on. It was somewhat loud. A cop pulled him over and wrote him an expensive ticket for "Exhibition of acceleration", even though the cop was on the other side of a bridge overpass and couldn't even see my buddy. In fact, my buddy had been sitting at a red light when another bike a few blocks away did the actual deed, but my buddy was the first bike the cop saw so he got the ticket. My buddy went to court to fight it and the judge summarily found him guilty.

That ticket was over $500 back in 1982, and my buddy also lost a day's pay going to court over it.

Down here, the cops always win, right or wrong. Always.

Here's an exoneration that is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Brandley

Be sure to read what the DPS officer said at the time of the arrest. IMHO that case is fairly representative of the law enforcement/judicial culture down here.
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Old March 16th, 2015, 11:45 PM   #21
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CA has some obscure vehicle code that should allow a motorcyclist to run a red light on grounds that the light was "malfunctioning." You COULD argue that the light's purpose is to safely meter all traffic and if it doesn't register and properly meter motorcycle traffic, the light is technically malfunctioning and inoperable since it's not metering all traffic and failing it's basic function. The big issue with this though, anecdotally, some traffic judges have said that they don't care that the light is inoperable and will find all transgressors guilty regardless on the status of the lights so long as they're "on." Many judges in CA anyways seem to have a very loose definition of "operable."

If you get a ticket, do a trial by declaration and fully explain the case, cite the vehicle code sub-paragraph, submit any witness testimony as well as the fine amount. If you win, you'll be refunded the amount of the fine and absolved. If you fail, you get a sentence and lose out on the fine BUT you do get the chance to then submit a trial de novo and have a full on trial and start from scratch. Although, this is all done at your own risk. While I study some laws here and there for fun and entertainment, I'm not a lawyer or judge so take that for what it's worth.

Also, many police officers I've met only learn the basic laws pertaining to primary and secondary offenses and primarily rely on the courts to handle the rest. There are a ton of laws on the books and memorizing them is pretty much impossible so I can't blame them. The section on the vehicle code alone for CA is a freaking tome.

TLDR: read and understand the local laws pertaining to this and bounce some questions off a lawyer that's willing to answer those questions.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 12:01 PM   #22
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I've used it once or twice in Illinois, usually left turns where it's left on green arrow only (only the dumbest thing I've ever seen)

but you do know about "cow magnets" don't you?

if not, Cow magnets are very strong magnets used to prevent "hardware disease" in bovine live stock. Because cows eat a lot of baled hay and processed grain, it's possible to get sharp bits of metal in their feed. Cows are fed a magnet that sit in the first stomach and picks up the metal before it gets to the other more tender and more easy to damage stomachs.

I attached two of them to the belly pan of my TLR.

the "sensor" for most traffic signals is a ferromagnetic loop (metal detector) when you pass a magnet over the sensor loop it sees it as a big truck or other vehicle.

It got rid of most of my "dead reds" but there is still one light on my commute that is totally blind to me, totally.

this is what they look like, it's sticking to another magnet that is on the back side of my hand, and my hand is vertical in this pic.



zip tied it to a bit of wood rod through the drain hole in the bottom of my belly pan. It's amazing how much small metal debris you pick up, every time I wash the bike I'm picking iron bits off the magnets.



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Old March 17th, 2015, 01:28 PM   #23
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Ran a red last night while a cop watched. He probably understood or didn't care what I was doing because I'm white (cops around here are like that)
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Old March 18th, 2015, 06:03 AM   #24
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I've used it once or twice in Illinois, usually left turns where it's left on green arrow only (only the dumbest thing I've ever seen)

but you do know about "cow magnets" don't you?

if not, Cow magnets are very strong magnets used to prevent "hardware disease" in bovine live stock. Because cows eat a lot of baled hay and processed grain, it's possible to get sharp bits of metal in their feed. Cows are fed a magnet that sit in the first stomach and picks up the metal before it gets to the other more tender and more easy to damage stomachs.

I attached two of them to the belly pan of my TLR.

the "sensor" for most traffic signals is a ferromagnetic loop (metal detector) when you pass a magnet over the sensor loop it sees it as a big truck or other vehicle.

It got rid of most of my "dead reds" but there is still one light on my commute that is totally blind to me, totally.

this is what they look like, it's sticking to another magnet that is on the back side of my hand, and my hand is vertical in this pic.



zip tied it to a bit of wood rod through the drain hole in the bottom of my belly pan. It's amazing how much small metal debris you pick up, every time I wash the bike I'm picking iron bits off the magnets.



Induction loops work by measuring eddy currents which are generated by ferrous metal passing through the field. A magnet alone, itself wont generate higher strength or more eddy currents due to eddy currents purely being a function of surface area vs distance from the loop. Having a small steel plate stuck to the bottom of the belly pan would work just as well if not better than that magnet due to a greater surface area and not slowly accumulating random bits of steel and iron underneath the bike.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 07:02 AM   #25
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If my understanding is correct...

Induction loops consist of one loop or coil through which current is passed and a static magnetic field is generated. A second loop, or coil sits with in that static field. The detection loop.

If the first loops magnetic field remains steady and constant, no current is generated in the second detection loop. However if a iron or other magnetically inductive material is passed through the field, this causes the field to fluctuate. A change in the magnetic field will induce a current in the detection loop and will register a signal...

so the two things that are needed are a large piece of ferromagnetic material, and relative motion between it, and the induction loops.

a relatively small change in the magnetic field produces a significantly large signal if the number of turns on the detection coil are high enough...

so, by passing an actual magnet through the area where the detection coil is located, a significant signal can be generated.

As most modern design motorcycles are moving away from ferromagnetic material toward Aluminum, Magnesium and other exotic materials (carbon fiber), the detection loop has less material to upset the magnetic field.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but this sure seemed to fix the problem for all but the most "blind" traffic sensors.

Perhaps i'll line my belly pan with a bit of steel sheet metal... Two stones, one bird as it were.
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Old March 19th, 2015, 07:29 AM   #26
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If my understanding is correct...

Induction loops consist of one loop or coil through which current is passed and a static magnetic field is generated. A second loop, or coil sits with in that static field. The detection loop.

If the first loops magnetic field remains steady and constant, no current is generated in the second detection loop. However if a iron or other magnetically inductive material is passed through the field, this causes the field to fluctuate. A change in the magnetic field will induce a current in the detection loop and will register a signal...

so the two things that are needed are a large piece of ferromagnetic material, and relative motion between it, and the induction loops.

a relatively small change in the magnetic field produces a significantly large signal if the number of turns on the detection coil are high enough...

so, by passing an actual magnet through the area where the detection coil is located, a significant signal can be generated.

As most modern design motorcycles are moving away from ferromagnetic material toward Aluminum, Magnesium and other exotic materials (carbon fiber), the detection loop has less material to upset the magnetic field.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but this sure seemed to fix the problem for all but the most "blind" traffic sensors.

Perhaps i'll line my belly pan with a bit of steel sheet metal... Two stones, one bird as it were.
It's not the disturbance per se of the magnetic field directly that the sensors pick up but the disturbance created by eddy currents which change the field and the sensors monitor. The eddy currents don't get extra powerful if done from purely a magnetic field, otherwise a copper wire based electromagnet would be the best solution. The eddy currents play across the surface of the metal and it's these eddy currents which create a disturbance in the field that the sensors measure. Your magnet works since it's still in practice a flat piece of iron that's real close to the ground. A really thin piece of sheet steel should work wonders and with how low a bike sits, should actually do a better job than the axle of a car due to sheer flat surface area. Also, aluminum foil theoretically should be able to produce a similar, if not reduced effect. So I want to someday try lining the belly pan of my bike with aluminum foil and see if the magnetic field on induction loops are designed similarly as some metal detectors are. Ask a metal detecting enthusiast how many aluminum cans they've dug up because their detector called it a coin.

I used to have the national Department of Transportation's Traffic engineering and design handbook in digital format and it goes in length on theory of operation and design. A very interesting read for the few of us that like that sorta thing.
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Old March 19th, 2015, 07:43 AM   #27
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It's not the disturbance per se of the magnetic field directly that the sensors pick up but the disturbance created by eddy currents which change the field and the sensors monitor. The eddy currents don't get extra powerful if done from purely a magnetic field, otherwise a copper wire based electromagnet would be the best solution. The eddy currents play across the surface of the metal and it's these eddy currents which create a disturbance in the field that the sensors measure. Your magnet works since it's still in practice a flat piece of iron that's real close to the ground. A really thin piece of sheet steel should work wonders and with how low a bike sits, should actually do a better job than the axle of a car due to sheer flat surface area. Also, aluminum foil theoretically should be able to produce a similar, if not reduced effect. So I want to someday try lining the belly pan of my bike with aluminum foil and see if the magnetic field on induction loops are designed similarly as some metal detectors are. Ask a metal detecting enthusiast how many aluminum cans they've dug up because their detector called it a coin.

I used to have the national Department of Transportation's Traffic engineering and design handbook in digital format and it goes in length on theory of operation and design. A very interesting read for the few of us that like that sorta thing.
always good to know...

do you think that something like steel wool would produce more eddy currents as steel wool is ALL surface area?

Dead red laws are great, I used to get trapped in South Carolina, they have divided 2 lane roads, with a median in the middle... when you are in the left turn lane, you are committed to the turn, no way to get back on the road with out driving through the grass, or pushing the bike backwards. I would blow the reds after waiting and waiting... but didn't have any kind of legal protection if some LEO wanted to be a wiener.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 04:40 PM   #28
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Now Georgia will be added to the list of states that allow you to run a frozen red light:

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/go...orcycle-change

ATLANTA – Motorcycle riders won a long-sought victory Thursday when the General Assembly passed a bill allowing them to ease through red lights when their bikes don’t weigh enough to trigger automatic signals.

The bill also included other amendments related to traffic safety, so many hung on it like ornaments for a holiday decoration.

“It’s not quite the Christmas tree we’d like to see, but it’s Christmas tree enough to take care of some of the traffic issues facing this state,” said Rep. Alan Powell, chairman of the Public Safety & Homeland Security Committee.

Among the amendments is one to require motorists to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks signaled by flashing lights like the city of Athens has installed. Another amendment removes height restrictions on motorcycle handlebars

“We call that the Easy Rider language because of the 1960s when there was a lot of prejudice against a lot of motorcycles,” said Powell, R-Hartwell.

But Rep. Don Parsons, R-Marietta, disagreed that the iconic rebel-biker movie “Easy Rider” had anything to do with the provision.

“It is not about the prejudice against motorcycles but about being in control,” he said.

The main issue about motorcycles and traffic lights has been something biker groups have pushed for in the legislature ever since the sensors began to be embedded in pavement. But permitting bikers to treat the lights like a stop sign could wind up boosting insurance rates for all motorcycles in the state, according to witnesses testifying before Powell’s committee.

“You were sort of durned if you do and durned if you don’t,” he said.

The last-minute solution lawmakers added was to put the burden of proof on the biker if there is a crash.

Now, it’s up to the governor to sign the bill into law if he agrees.


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