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Old March 19th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #81
greenaero
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Latest update: I decided to clean my carbs. They actually didn't look too bad inside. I got it all back together and rode around some today and refueled.... 92.1 mpg
It appears the improved tail and taller gearing are doing their job. I need to adjust the carbs some more as it has some flat spots as I accelerate. Once I'm above 6K rpms it runs very well.
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Old March 20th, 2012, 04:58 AM   #82
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I need to adjust the carbs some more as it has some flat spots as I accelerate.
Too bad the Ecotrons fuel injection kit is having some teething problems getting onto the road. Changing to programmable, dual channel fuel injection would be a no brainer for $600.
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Old March 20th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #83
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Yeah, FI would be nice. I got the carbs working better today but still have some flat spots so I guess the next move would be to put washers under the needles.
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Old March 20th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #84
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if you just put one washer under the needles, prepare for the mileage to drop about 3 mpg
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Old March 21st, 2012, 09:27 AM   #85
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Quote:
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Too bad the Ecotrons fuel injection kit is having some teething problems getting onto the road. Changing to programmable, dual channel fuel injection would be a no brainer for $600.
not so much i been happy with mine. and i only paid 450 ha. And im with u guys on the hypermiling i do it in all my vehicles.

I have already started molding a new tail (not as big as greenarrows) but more areo dynamic.

And sometime next week or over the weekend im looking to extend the front fairing on the pregen to come out so it would cover my legs on the transition and my hands. Just an overall bigger fairing.

What are ur guys input on doing a bigger fairing to streamline the body?
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Old March 21st, 2012, 09:29 AM   #86
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o and i have been getting 75mpg constantly city riding. And when i go for my long drive home up a mountain i get 70mpg but when i come back down i get 80mpg. and i do tend to speed a bit. I need to mess with my gearing a bit.
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Old March 21st, 2012, 09:50 AM   #87
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not so much i been happy with mine.
Do most of the guys that did the Ecotrons group buy have their fuel injection kits running well? I thought I was reading about programming problems above 10,000 rpm with the ignition maps.
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Old March 21st, 2012, 09:55 AM   #88
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Do most of the guys that did the Ecotrons group buy have their fuel injection kits running well? I thought I was reading about programming problems above 10,000 rpm with the ignition maps.
that was fixed long ago. and it wasnt a problem with reading it was the manner at which it was reading the signal. Matt set it to read the sensor at a more sensitive setting. Thats it.
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Old March 21st, 2012, 10:16 AM   #89
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that was fixed long ago. and it wasnt a problem with reading it was the manner at which it was reading the signal. Matt set it to read the sensor at a more sensitive setting. Thats it.
So the kit is good to buy now for my 09 Ninja250?
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Old March 21st, 2012, 10:31 AM   #90
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So the kit is good to buy now for my 09 Ninja250?
i would maybe wait a few more weeks. So far the petcock might be getting replaced with some sturdier models (but this would be given to u even if u bought the kit now), new rubber gaskets on the TBs (would be given to u anyways), and possibly new relocation of the MAP sensor (this might mean they would choose a different location on the TB to attach it). U can call the first ten of us as testers but its been really good for me. So much better of a ride with the bike and i can really cruise to get the best gas mileage too.

I would just keep an eye on the forums for updates but so far so good and Matt is excellent with customer service if u do have issues
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Old March 21st, 2012, 11:08 AM   #91
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i would maybe wait a few more weeks.
Thanks
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Old March 21st, 2012, 11:31 AM   #92
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do u guys see any negative side increasing the width of the front fairing?
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Old March 21st, 2012, 02:02 PM   #93
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do u guys see any negative side increasing the width of the front fairing?
Vetter is using a 28" wide nose on his streamliner and the new nose he moulded for the kit is 24 inches wide. If the added width is clean it can actually be more aero. I am thinking of adding something to the bottom of my Honda Fairing to keep my feet dry.
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Old March 21st, 2012, 05:12 PM   #94
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Vetter is using a 28" wide nose on his streamliner and the new nose he moulded for the kit is 24 inches wide. If the added width is clean it can actually be more aero. I am thinking of adding something to the bottom of my Honda Fairing to keep my feet dry.
.
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/201...liner-p56.html
ok good deal. yeah i def wanted something for my hands and feet.

And im about finished with my tail. its not huge but enough im going to start molding the front fairing this weekend, ill be looking to make it about 4-5in on each side to cover my legs and hands. and alot a bit taller around the windsheild. keep u guys posted.
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Old March 21st, 2012, 05:15 PM   #95
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@EMSRacer07 cool!!!!!! keep us posted! is this going to be just for fun, or is it going to be a permanent change to your bike?
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Old March 21st, 2012, 05:23 PM   #96
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@EMSRacer07 cool!!!!!! keep us posted! is this going to be just for fun, or is it going to be a permanent change to your bike?
well for the testing ill be using coroplast bc i started making my tail straight from fiberglass was a pain so im going to take my time with the front fairing.

And i was going to make it off the front fairing and take off the front fairing and go from there but i think im going to make it an addition to the stock one so i wont have to do so much work ha. so it will be permanent so i got to do a good job lol.
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Old March 21st, 2012, 05:28 PM   #97
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sounds gutsy. Good luck!
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Old March 21st, 2012, 07:32 PM   #98
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do u guys see any negative side increasing the width of the front fairing?
As long as you are just covering things that are already exposed to air drag you should reduce your overall aerodrag. The key is having a smooth , rounded front, wide and tall enough to cover the rider and motorcycle , then gradually decreasing in height and width to maintain the attached laminar airflow.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 10:51 AM   #99
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ok good deal. yeah i def wanted something for my hands and feet.

And im about finished with my tail. its not huge but enough im going to start molding the front fairing this weekend, ill be looking to make it about 4-5in on each side to cover my legs and hands. and alot a bit taller around the windsheild. keep u guys posted.
Please post some photos!

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Old March 23rd, 2012, 07:56 AM   #100
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interesting thread. alan smith's bike is looking more and more like a small plane. keep up the good work GA.
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Old March 24th, 2012, 01:47 PM   #101
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Interesting project! pretty cool to see how milage is reflected in certain modifications and adjustments!
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Old March 25th, 2012, 08:00 AM   #102
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Thanks ! I'll definitely keep posting as I make progress. I'm in Texas right now visiting my ailing dad but will be back on trac later this week with more testing whern I get home on Wed.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 04:41 PM   #103
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Hey greenaero,

Question

i know there is alot of arguement about this. Whats the downside of not having a huge tail like yours. Like having only the dustbin front and not the aero tail? I have moved on to molding the front and about to fiberglass and looks like it might be a while before i get to the rear so any downsides of doing it that way for a while. Thanks

o and from my body size (well knee size) i will be extending the body on both sides 6in. So the front and lower faring will almost be a foot larger.
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Old March 26th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #104
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Hi EMSRacer, The advantages of the large " Vetter style" tail like I installed are optimal air drag reduction, lots of interior storage space, sit-up comfort and good crosswind handling. Depending on the increase in side area and how well it is rounded you may encounter poor cross wind handling with only a faired front. The large tail helps the bike self-correct as it gets hit by gusts and crosswinds and maintains stability. But with enough " pass through" for sidewinds you should be fine. You may not find as much improvement as you would get with well designed , integrated streamlining for both the front and back but you should still see an improvement. Max Perethian got 157 mpg at the 2011 Ohio Vetter Challenge with just a front fairing and no tail installed ( though it appears he used advanced riding techniques like pulse and glide engine-off coasting to achieve this).
It sounds like you are doing the right things as far as sizing the front fairing to your body width and height. I'd say go ahead and install it and test it to see how it handles in windy conditions and how much it improves your fuel economy. Partial improvement still beats no improvement.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #105
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Alan Smith's Ninja streamliner next to Craig Vetter's dissembled Helix hypermiler. Looks as if Alan's bike is getting close to completion.

Here is a link to the latest update: Link



Craig is in the process of installing a nose like the one on Alan's bike on his Helix.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #106
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Craig did an amazing job on the DIY turret and windscreen. The new nose looks great. Another Vetter work of art.
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Old March 29th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #107
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More from the Craig Vetter site:
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Old March 29th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #108
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ill post pics up tomorrow on my front fairing. i finished fiberglassing today. tomorrow ill mount it up, drill holes etc so it will stay put
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Old April 14th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #109
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Sorry I haven't posted in awhile, I've been away from home a lot the last 3 weeks with more work travel scheduled just before the 5/4 Carmel Vetter Challenge.

I have my bike running better after cleaning and adjusting the carbs and installing the 15/33 gearing. The last tankfills have been 90mpg, 92 mpg and 76 mpg. The 76 mpg tankfill involved a lot of hard, fast running over 70mph playing with throttle response in top gear. My bike is now pretty susceptable to lugging in top gear at the low end of the power band so I need to downshift a lot more than previously. This week will be my last opportunity to work on the Ninja before I compete in the 5/4 Carmel Vetter Challenge so I will be doing some testing and refining it to get ready. I was hoping to do some riding with Alan Smith and see his new Vetter front end but he is going dirtbiking in Utah next week. The new front end looks great and I'm curious about how much of an improvement it will be over his previous one. I will probably go this route if it shows a signnificant improvement oveer the faired front fender/frame fairing combo.
I plan to seal up some opening in my front fairing, change to new spark plugs. Alan is leaving me a 37 tooth rear sprocket to try out, which I may do if testing indicates a problem with the current 33 tooth rear sprocket. I'm very pleased with the new tail and have worked on the interior to improve its cargo carrying capabilities ( over 4 paper grocery bags ) . We'll see how it goes.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 07:26 PM   #110
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Filled up the bike today after running errands this past week. 168.6 miles / 1.75 gal.= 96.3 mpg. The more I ride around with the 15/33 gearing, the better I like it. I sealed up some side vents on the front fairing and lubed and checked the chain. I plan to install some plugs , other than that I'm pretty much ready for the Vetter Challenge on May 4. Hopefully I can breaK 100mpg in the event.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 06:34 PM   #111
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I did some more running around during this warm spell we are having and filled up today; 138.2 miles/1.08 gal.=127.96 mpg!!!
The main things I attribute the improvement to is the taller gearing, the warm weather , that I'm rode slower , and included fewer short trips. It may be a fluke but the next tank will be a good indicator. My last tank was 96 mpg. things are looking good for Carmel.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 08:28 PM   #112
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Congratulations on your progress and good luck on your challenge.

Do you plan on getting into any engine control mods in the future?

Cars have made amazing progress in mileage and emissions since fuel injection was introduced. Most of the fuel injection for bikes i've noticed aren't really that efficient, they tend more towards replacing carbs. They have nice benefits for cold starting and similar adaptability, but haven't trended toward the real efficiencies.

When i saw your first thread I though "cool, 100mpg ninja sounds awesome", but so far I've been a little disappointed that it's been aero and gearing. What I'd really like to see is a highly efficient FI system, and maybe a sixth gear that leaves my 1st thru 5th gear performance alone but gives me the freeway cruising benefits of your sprocket updates.

Don't read this as complaining though, like I said on line one: congratulations so far and good luck!
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Old April 21st, 2012, 09:29 PM   #113
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Thank mrcrunch! No offense taken. I've focused on aero, gearing and riding techniques as they are the easisest and most effective areas for big improvements. I agree that motorcycles are pretty crude in engine management technology compared to cars. I don't see myself investing in FI for this bike as the current systems available haven't demonstrated a large enough improvement in fuel economy ( if any ) to be worth the investment IMO, particularly for this low budget project. I may play with the ignition timing and camshafts in the future.
Going with taller gearing makes the 250 Ninja a much better streetbike IMO with improved freeway cruising and fuel economy, the only down side is a slight decrease in maximum acceleration.
In the near future I think we will see more sophisticated 250 cc bikes with efficient FI. The Honda CBR250 is a start, now will Kawasaki meet the challenge with a redesigned Ninja 250?
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 02:13 AM   #114
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Red face

Quote:
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... riding techniques ...
Actually, I'm not sure I've ever seen much Info focusing on this area. Sure, if. Accelerate hard, that will help. I'm familiar with general economic driving habits, but haven't found anything specific about our bikes. Here's one tip I've learned: out of spec valves hurts fuel economy by almost 20%, lol

Have you found a target rpm that provides best economy while cruising?

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Going with taller gearing makes the 250 Ninja a much better streetbike IMO with improved freeway cruising and fuel economy, the only down side is a slight decrease in maximum acceleration.
Exactly why I'd want it as a 6th gear only mod. I love the sub 65mph characteristics of my bike.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 07:45 AM   #115
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I'm working on an article about motorcycle hypermiling that I hope will get published somewhere. You are correct about paying attention to all the details: maintenance, tire pressure, speed, traffic ,etc.

I try to stay at the low end of the band while accelerating ( ~ 5-6K rpms ) until reaching my target speed where I stay in the tallest gear that the bike is comfortable with without lugging. With the 15/33 gearing it doesn't take much to be forced to downshift once or twice to get back into the powerband.

The stock geared Ninja 250 is a little tiger as far as quick acceleration and throttle response. Part of me misses that, but that is one of the compromises one makes to get optimum fuel economy.
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Old May 4th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #116
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I rode down to Carmel Thursday afternoon for a get-together at the Vetters' home with all the competitors. It was great to see my friends from previous competitions( Craig, Alan, Fred Hayes, Josh Chen) and to meet a forum friend (Redyaris) in person. It was fun and all the bikes met the 4 paper grocery bag carrying requirement. Fred had to run with metal panniers on his 2 diesel bikes to meet the current Vetter Challenge rules.
The next morning we topped off our tanks and reported to the starting point for the 2012 Quail Gathering. There were many fabulous bikes: Nortons, Triumphs, MV Agustas, Laverdas, Ducatis, Vincents, Brough Superiors and many other vintage and collectable motorcycles. The ride was beautiful though the start was misty and the roads were wet and slippery. One rider had a get-off and fortunately was not hurt too badly.
After the first stop, my bike didn't start up immediately and Craig passed me while I was still trying to get it started and was technically disqualified for being passed by the designated follower ( Craig). I finally got it started about the middle of the pack and stayed with the fast pace of the group the rest of the ride. I was disappointed as I thought I had at least a small chance at winning or getting a high placement.
The next stop was at the Talbot winery where we got a guided tour. Conditions on that leg were very windy but all the streamliners handled it very well. We proceeded o the Laguna Seca racetrack where we rode 2 laps of this famous venue. Then on to the finish and lunch with all 6 Vetter Challengers reporting to the gas station for the official top-off. I didn't record the official results but I know Fred used less a gallon( diesel) for the ~116 mile ride, Alan used about 1.1 gal, Josh- 1.24 gal,(diesel ) me- 1.25 gal., Craig-~ 1.4 gal and Ron /Redyaris- I can't remember. The ride was fun and the pace was fast; it was the fastest pace I've ridden the Ninja at with speeds up to 85 mph and lots of hard acceleration to keep up and prevent being passed by Craig. I ended up with a 93 mpg run, I wanted to break 100 mpg but I can see how hard it is to achieve this under these difficult conditions. Kudos for to all the Vetter Challengers for another great event.
I rode home and had a pretty good run: 122.4 miles/.9 gallon= 136 mpg.

Alan Smith's 2003 Ninja 250 and my 1999 Ninja 250 were the best performing gasoline-powered bikes in the 2012 Carmel Vetter Challenge
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Old May 5th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #117
mrcrunch
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Nice work Vic. What caused the stalll?
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Old May 5th, 2012, 02:10 PM   #118
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thanks Brian!
I'm still not sure what happened with the bike not restarting. It could have been that either the kill switch or the sidestand safety switch weren't completely disengaged. The bike, while somewhat cold-blooded, normally fires up right away so this was totally unexpected. I didn't help the situation as I waited until the last few seconds to restart the bike to save as much fuel as possible. If I had the winning performance I would be more upset; there's no prize money, only a trophy and the bragging rights. My 93 mpg performance will still be documented for the event records.
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Old May 5th, 2012, 02:21 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenaero View Post
My 93 mpg performance will still be documented for the event records.
nice! Taking some names!
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Old May 5th, 2012, 03:52 PM   #120
mrcrunch
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Sometimes I cause a mild flooding, which causes a hard start while the mixture in the cylinders leans itself back out. It's always a bummer though, when that happens.
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