Rebuilding Questions

[eulark]

Well, a cursory looksy shows that all the rocker arms are intact and in place still.
I'll pull the cams off tonight and really check over all of them.

[n4mwd]

They weren't set right or it wouldn't have hit.

Did you turn the crank so the it was on the "2T" (2|T) mark?
Did you follow the directions in the service manual for aligning the IN and EX lines with the top of the head?

The intake and exhaust cams are identical. The only difference is where they bolt to the sprocket. EX holes vs. IN holes. Since you have multiple engines, just use one with IN and the other EX. No need to unbolt anything. EX goes to the front of the bike and IN to the rear.

So when you get home, rotate the crank to the 2T position and verify that the cam hasn't slipped somehow. You need to figure out what you did wrong before starting again.

Anyhow, at this point you need to remove the cams and examine everything. Its possible that a valve is bent, but its most likely the rockers. Check the valve spring tops to make sure that they are all even and one is not pushed down farther than the others.

[eulark]

i have the timing mark at T2, the cams have both moved by one tooth counter clockwise (towards the front of the motor). I think the chain jumped the crankshaft gear. Weird.

[jayman87]

Did you install your cam chain tensioner before you turned the engine?

[n4mwd]

Also check the crank sprocket over really good. Look for missing or broken teeth.

[eulark]

I did not install the cam chain tensioner the first time.

I did this time, but when i started to tighten down the camshaft caps, one of the bolts didnt ever register as being torqued on the wrench. So of course i overtightened it and snapped the head off. So im gonna switch the heads with my spare one now...so the finish date is now delayed :/ but at least i have the spare head.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

I did not install the cam chain tensioner the first time.

I did this time, but when i started to tighten down the camshaft caps, one of the bolts didnt ever register as being torqued on the wrench. So of course i overtightened it and snapped the head off. So im gonna switch the heads with my spare one now...so the finish date is now delayed :/ but at least i have the spare head.

Helicoil?

[eulark]

Haha, i might do that later. I've already switched the top half of the top end since i had another. I installed the cams correctly torqued everything correct, and this time i remembered the cam chain tensioner. Haha.

It all turns just fine, except for the exhaust cycle on the cylinder opposite side from the chain. It gets pretty stiff on that cycle. I sprayed some cleaner in there through the exhaust exit. Hopefully this will work.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

Haha, i might do that later. I've already switched the top half of the top end since i had another. I installed the cams correctly torqued everything correct, and this time i remembered the cam chain tensioner. Haha.

It all turns just fine, except for the exhaust cycle on the cylinder opposite side from the chain. It gets pretty stiff on that cycle. I sprayed some cleaner in there through the exhaust exit. Hopefully this will work.

That would be cylinder #1. There is going to be spring resistance because of the valves. Just make sure you examine the rockers before closing it up. You still haven't said what it was that broke when you turned it by hand.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by eulark

when i started to tighten down the camshaft caps, one of the bolts didn't ever register as being torqued on the wrench. So of course i over-tightened it and snapped the head off.

Been there. Done that. I felt like a moron until I calmed down and got my thinking cap on.

Luckily, a reverse-threaded extractor bit worked great! Just be very careful to clean all the metal shavings out so they don't wear your cams/rockers badly. Drill a hole in the snapped shaft with a good drill bit, use the reverse-threaded extractor bit to get it out, then replace the bolt with something really good from the hardware store. That's what I did and I've had no problems since.

[eulark]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

That would be cylinder #1. There is going to be spring resistance because of the valves. Just make sure you examine the rockers before closing it up. You still haven't said what it was that broke when you turned it by hand.

Its twice as hard to turn by hand when it hits that exhaust section. The rest of it turns nice and easy. My guess is that the guides are somewhat gummed up with deposits. Since i have the top half of the head from motor one off now with that broken thread, while im fixing that, i'm going to go ahead and check into cleaning the valves really well and switching it back on later.

And nothing broke. Since i didnt have that chain tensioner on, and one of the valves was sticky, the chain jumped a tooth and the rocker arm jumped out of place. I checked every rocker arm and the sprocket for the cam chain. No lost or chipped teeth and no cracks breaks on the arms. All of them had everything with no chips. I think i got really lucky to be honest.

I think im at the point where im going to go ahead and button this thing up and get it on the bike.

So still have clutch to deal with, Valve clearances, and install. Then carbs need cleaning and I'll need to go over the electrical stuff on the frame.

Questions.
1. Pretty much every cable on the bike was loosened and or disconnected to remove the motor. I am terrible with the way these things are setup like the clutch cable. Any where i can get a better idea of how they work?

2. Carb cables, i undid them, stupid of me. Is there a walkthrough of how to set them up?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

Its twice as hard to turn by hand when it hits that exhaust section. The rest of it turns nice and easy. My guess is that the guides are somewhat gummed up with deposits. Since i have the top half of the head from motor one off now with that broken thread, while im fixing that, i'm going to go ahead and check into cleaning the valves really well and switching it back on later.

And nothing broke. Since i didnt have that chain tensioner on, and one of the valves was sticky, the chain jumped a tooth and the rocker arm jumped out of place. I checked every rocker arm and the sprocket for the cam chain. No lost or chipped teeth and no cracks breaks on the arms. All of them had everything with no chips. I think i got really lucky to be honest.

I think im at the point where im going to go ahead and button this thing up and get it on the bike.

So still have clutch to deal with, Valve clearances, and install. Then carbs need cleaning and I'll need to go over the electrical stuff on the frame.

Questions.
1. Pretty much every cable on the bike was loosened and or disconnected to remove the motor. I am terrible with the way these things are setup like the clutch cable. Any where i can get a better idea of how they work?

2. Carb cables, i undid them, stupid of me. Is there a walkthrough of how to set them up?

I'm just not sure about the extra resistance with the exhaust valves. All I can say is to rotate it carefully by hand and watch the cams as they go around and see which cylinder is causing trouble.

One time I had a similar problem when a rocker got twisted in there during installation. It could also be that they are badly out of adjustment. In any case, I wouldn't go too much further until this mystery is solved.

Cables: Just play with them until you get them. They aren't that hard. Just be careful not to break the clutch switch or you'll have to buy a new one.

[jayman87]

Originally Posted by eulark

I think im at the point where im going to go ahead and button this thing up and get it on the bike.

So still have clutch to deal with, Valve clearances, and install. Then carbs need cleaning and I'll need to go over the electrical stuff on the frame.

Questions.
1. Pretty much every cable on the bike was loosened and or disconnected to remove the motor. I am terrible with the way these things are setup like the clutch cable. Any where i can get a better idea of how they work?

2. Carb cables, i undid them, stupid of me. Is there a walkthrough of how to set them up?

Congratz on getting this far. I'm pretty much at the same point. My clutch is installed, but I need to do the valves, the carbs, and I have to service my swingarm. I hope to put the motor on the frame tomorrow.

Anyway as far as the carbs, this removal vid gives you a decent enough look at it. You can skip to like 6:45.

Link to original page on YouTube.

But like he said it's fairly easy. If you need help, I can send you some pics when I mount my motor.



Question. How does the timing work for the spark plugs?

[eulark]

I need to make a correction. The harder to turn than normal occurs when cylinder 1 (farthest from the cam chain) is on the intake cycle and cylinder 2 is on the exhaust cycle. When it turns, the chain actually seems to tense more, which causes a noise from the CCT where its being pushed back in. This tells me that the springs/valves on the exhaust side cyl 2 are stiffer. This seems to be causing the camshaft to rise slightly which in turn stretches the chain upwards resulting in a tighter chain. (This is with the head from Motor 2). Head from motor one seems to have had a similar issue.

So, the springs seem to be fine, leading me to suppose that either A.) the clearances are just way out of wack, and/or B.) the valves are sticking.

Not sure what to do if the valves are sticking :/

[jayman87]

Is there any oil or assembly lube on any of these parts? It probably won't fix the abnormal resistance, but your springs, rocker arms, cam bearing, and chain should be lubricated if you haven't already.

[n4mwd]

It could just be that you are in a part of the cycle where both intake of one cylinder and exhaust of the other are going at the same time. Thus double force.

Regarding the cam chain tensioner, the chain should never get loose and tight back and forth like that. It means your cam chain tensioner is not working. If its working right, it can't move back out and loosen the chain. Better check your assembly. Make sure all the balls are still in place and the two springs are in there. Also if its exceptionally worn it might not work either.

[eulark]

Well, i spent the last five minutes turning it over by hand. It seems to have gotten smoother now and while still stiff, its not as much and i suspect that its just gotten a little stuck from sitting and is unsticking now. I imagine that with some heat, the issue will go away completely. And as n4mwd said, Part of it is probably due to the dual pressures.

[eulark]

Hahaha, so after a bit of oil on everything and adjusting the valves, it all turns just peachy. Pretty much every rocker arm was too tight. Which makes sense considering i moved them over from the motor 1 head to motor 2 head.

Its all good now.

Question, just out of curiosity, would it be possible to torque that clutch bolt to 100# off the frame? Granted, the motor is not in any sort of mount right now. I have the big torque wrench, but still, 100# is a lot. And just as a scholarly matter, what would happen if that nut was overtorqued?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

Question, just out of curiosity, would it be possible to torque that clutch bolt to 100# off the frame? Granted, the motor is not in any sort of mount right now. I have the big torque wrench, but still, 100# is a lot. And just as a scholarly matter, what would happen if that nut was overtorqued?

To put that much torque on it, you need the engine in some kind of mount. Either the bike frame or on a stand. With everything stable, 100# is not that much. But if you go over the 100# by much, you will likely damage things. Just use a torque wrench and set it at exactly 100#.

The big nut is listed as a throwaway and is supposed to be replaced. I know other people reuse it though. I'm not sure what the consequences are in reusing it. I'm thinking worst case, it comes off and you have to take the cover off to fix it.

[jayman87]

I've done both. First time I removed/installed the clutch it was on the frame. I let the the clutch hub holder rest on the foot peg for removal and used a block of wood for installation. The second time I had brought the motor in the house to work on it over the winter. I had it sitting on chair with no back, so it was lower than a work bench and easy to lean on. I put one arm (and my body weight) on the motor, one arm on the torque wrench, and the clutch hub holder rested against the chair. Not much more difficult than when it was on the frame, but just put it on the frame.

[eulark]

I bought a new one. So there's no worries there.

[n4mwd]

"one" what? Chair, frame, stand, torque wrench????

[eulark]

Hahaha sorry. Sometimes I get a one track mind. I have a new nut already.

And I have a large torque wrench so it'll be no problem.

[eulark]

Motor is installed in the frame. Yay!!!

Now im working on getting everything set up.
So questions.

1.) Battery ground wire. Where does it tie into the chassis?
2. ) Exhaust install. Stock pipes. So how do the pipes go into the motor? The pipes sit as flush as possible within the motor obviously. But what about the oblong brackets and the sleeves? how does that all setup?
3.) The Chain has been sitting outside under the cover. There is some surface rust and im planning on replacing the chain and sprockets as soon as I get some more cash, but if i grease it up and all, will it be good for a few weeks?
4.) How does the clutch hook up to the motor?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

Motor is installed in the frame. Yay!!!

Now im working on getting everything set up.
So questions.

1.) Battery ground wire. Where does it tie into the chassis?
2. ) Exhaust install. Stock pipes. So how do the pipes go into the motor? The pipes sit as flush as possible within the motor obviously. But what about the oblong brackets and the sleeves? how does that all setup?
3.) The Chain has been sitting outside under the cover. There is some surface rust and im planning on replacing the chain and sprockets as soon as I get some more cash, but if i grease it up and all, will it be good for a few weeks?
4.) How does the clutch hook up to the motor?

1) Bolt to engine about 3" rear of the starter on right side.
2) Engine -> Copper washer -> pipe flange -> half round shims -> oblong aluminum thing
3) Should be ok. Use chain wax not grease. The orings protect the actual chain so it should be ok as long as it still bends ok.
4) With a cable.

[eulark]

So washer...I've only found one. Hopefully running without the other wont be a big deal. This one was still stuck in the old head. Maybe the head on the motor still has one too. :/

Will i need both later when i install my muzzy system? Im planning on running my stockers for until i get the jet kit and pipe reskinned ie waiting on some expected cash flows.

Anyways, so its washer set into the head, flange set to have the lip closest to the motor (pressing against the washer) with the sleeve sliding into the oblong thing (with the indentation facing towards the motor (allowing it to sit flush with the motor)?

[eulark]

Just for clarification



Happy Easter to everyone by the way!


And just a looksy at how my weekend has been



Im getting somewhere at least. Still a lot to do.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

So washer...I've only found one. Hopefully running without the other wont be a big deal. This one was still stuck in the old head. Maybe the head on the motor still has one too. :/

Will i need both later when i install my muzzy system? Im planning on running my stockers for until i get the jet kit and pipe reskinned ie waiting on some expected cash flows.

Anyways, so its washer set into the head, flange set to have the lip closest to the motor (pressing against the washer) with the sleeve sliding into the oblong thing (with the indentation facing towards the motor (allowing it to sit flush with the motor)?

Its engine then washer then header pipe. the header has its own little flange. that gets held in by the 2 little sleeves. the flanges on the little sleeves touch the oblong thing.

[eulark]

So the header was installed, as was one of the canisters. The other will go on once i finish lubing the chain.

Plugs are installed, the clutch basket is torqued on to 98#. Carbs are installed. Now its just a matter of hooking the cables up and getting them setup correctly. Then fluids and new gas. Check tire pressure, pick up the battery, and see what happens.

After pouring in the oil, should i turn the motor by hand to get oil everywhere it needs to be inside before cranking the sucker?

[n4mwd]

If you put oil on all the bearing surfaces then it should be Ok to start it if the cam are in right. Turning by hand isn't going to do anything that the starter wont do.

[jayman87]

Finally got mine running. So good to hit the road again. Hows yours coming buddy?

[eulark]

Originally Posted by jayman87

Finally got mine running. So good to hit the road again. Hows yours coming buddy?

Congrats! I'm actually doing some last minute studying before connecting the carbs up and getting the clutch cable tightened. And i still need to get the back wheel and chain tightened. But im about to give this all a whirl. Battery is charged, i have clean gas on standby, just need to do the finishing touches haha.

What did you end up having to do?

[eulark]

Alrighty, so i just poured in my coolant only to my surprise, it started pouring out of the front of the motor through a small bolt hole. I stuck a short bolt and washer there for now, but any idea what it is? It is located on the front of the bottom half of the head. The thing isnt very big, but i cant imagine it is there for no reason other than to stick a bolt in it, right?

[jayman87]

The biggest thing was getting myself to calm down and take my time. Ever since I got the engine mounted, I've been in a rush to get it running. I started getting ahead of myself and not doing a little research just to be sure. There are many different ways to support the bike while you service the swingarm, but all of them suggest to tie it down and make doubly sure it stable. Well I said....nah I'll be fine. I didn't like how things went with my motorcycle lift alone, so I used it in combination with a car jack. The lift has a petal you pump with your foot to lift it and everything was going great until I tripped on that petal and the bike started to fall.

So it didn't immediately fall, just kinda tipped and started to slide. I managed to grab the rear grab bar, and lift it back up and try to kick the lift back into place. Got it into place right when the car jack fell. I was holding the grab bar still and surprise, extra two hundred pounds (or whatever). The lift moves again ( The lift has something to keep it from moving, now if only I thought to use it), then the front stand goes, and I say f-it and put her down gently. I stretch my back, and catch my breath, and think, center stand! I lift the bike and with my right foot kick for the center stand and knock the spring off of it. It wasn't part of the plan but when I lifted the bike it went down and I pulled backwards to make sure it was secure.

After I treated my hernias, I removed the fenders and slid the airbox out the back for battery box removal. Finished the swingarm and linkage service, cut the battery box, cleaned the chain, installed the airbox and fenders, installed and aligned the wheel, installed oil filter and oil screen with new gasket, added oil - no leaks, installed water pump cover, pipes and radiator, added distilled water only - leak, new O ring for water pipe - leak fixed, installed gas tank, installed battery, installed clutch cable.

I had to crank it for a good min or two but it started. Took it off the stands and took her around the block naked. When I got back I drained the water and added proper coolant, added oil to make up for what was now in the filter, checked tire pressure, added fairings, and adjusted the clutch cable. I probably missed a few things but you get the point.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by eulark

Alrighty, so i just poured in my coolant only to my surprise, it started pouring out of the front of the motor through a small bolt hole. I stuck a short bolt and washer there for now, but any idea what it is? It is located on the front of the bottom half of the head. The thing isnt very big, but i cant imagine it is there for no reason other than to stick a bolt in it, right?

can you post a photo of it?

[jayman87]

If this is what you're talking about, it is a drain for the coolant. The main drain in the water pump cover doesn't get it all out of the cylinders. This gets whats left. I used distilled water to test for leaks.



If you haven't already, read this.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...ling_system%3F

[eulark]

Yep thats the one. I put a bolt in there and tightened it down to spec so i should be good.


So i had everything setup and drained the gas tank before putting it on. OF course, the lining inside is falling apart, so when i dumped the gas, it was bright orange. Great...now i have to clean the petcock since it didnt drain at all when i turned it to on or reserve. Then i tried to open the gas cap, and whadaya know? the lock wont open. So after wrestling with it for hours and using the good ole standby PB Blaster, i decided it wasnt going to open. So i started drilling and nabbed that pesky screw and pulled the whole unit off.

Needless to say, im very glad i didnt try to force it. The latch wouldnt budge a millimeter due to the corrosion. Ive soaked it in pb blaster for the last half hour and only managed to get it to move about half way, or in key turn terms, about an eighth of a turn. The thing is so bad off, i may just opt for a new bottom section with just the latch since the key section works fine.

Anyone know what the part number is? I'll be honest though, I'd almost rather not have a lock. Is there a keyless one out there? I mean lets be honest, The most that can be stolen gas wise is about 3 gallons if i just filled up. More gas would just be a AAA phone call away.

And i guess i need to look into tank solutions for the rust...

[eulark]

Note, i am assuming that the latch is like all others and retreats completely into the mechanism when open.

and im following this for the most part
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102020

[Racer x]

You can get a screw on cap for the tank. The lock is to keep people from putting stuff in you tank not steeling gas. Also reminds you to close it.

Use acid to remove the rust.

[eulark]

Well that makes more sense hahaha. Never thought of it that way. Well, I guess i just need to get some acid...i think my neighbor could help with that....er..what?

Well, at least the cap is working now i think. I just need to test it next weekend when im at my parents to finish this bike up.

Any suggestions on brands for tank cleaning?

And i have another question, whats the purpose of an inline filter if the petcock has filters already?