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Old October 28th, 2021, 02:48 PM   #1
Detrailers
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2009 Ninja 250 giving me fits lol

Trying to figure this out. All the obvious stuff I've done.

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Old October 28th, 2021, 03:49 PM   #2
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This is carburetor related, not spark. The left carb's idle circuit is not supplying fuel, as demonstrated by the engine stalling when you unplugged the right coil. This could be dirt in the carb or just the idle speed set too low.

After you correct that, let us know if the stalling on quick throttle opening still happens.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 03:59 PM   #3
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Ive cleaned the carbs 2x, this a.m. I. The ultra sonic and carbs spray in every orifice....and that doesn't make sense because once it's above 3k or so rpm it still has the issue. If it was idle circuit I would t think it would not affect mid throttle, maybe off idle it would....and I just don't think it would bog down so bad if it was just idle circuit.
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This is carburetor related, not spark. The left carb's idle circuit is not supplying fuel, as demonstrated by the engine stalling when you unplugged the right coil. This could be dirt in the carb or just the idle speed set too low.

After you correct that, let us know if the stalling on quick throttle opening still happens.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 04:39 PM   #4
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Ive cleaned the carbs 2x, this a.m. I. The ultra sonic and carbs spray in every orifice....and that doesn't make sense because once it's above 3k or so rpm it still has the issue. If it was idle circuit I would t think it would not affect mid throttle, maybe off idle it would....and I just don't think it would bog down so bad if it was just idle circuit.
So maybe the carbs are even more clogged than I thought. These particular carbs are not easy to get truly clean. At least once per month someone new to the board starts a thread about a problem a lot like yours, and we try to convince them that it's dirty carbs.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 04:49 PM   #5
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Yup, and everyone wants to believe they're clean after the first, second, tenth time going through them... tiny carbs can be frustrating. Other carbs are much easier to clean than these.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 05:43 PM   #6
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I hear ya, I've read all those posts. They spent 2 hours in the ultrasonic and then carb cleaner and compressed air thru all the orofices. Maybe still carb related but doubtful from dirt. And the prob is kind of a mid and full throttle prob and pilots, needles and mains are spotless
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So maybe the carbs are even more clogged than I thought. These particular carbs are not easy to get truly clean. At least once per month someone new to the board starts a thread about a problem a lot like yours, and we try to convince them that it's dirty carbs.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 05:51 PM   #7
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I'm really starting to wonder if maybe this has something to do with the slip-on and the drop-in filter
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Old October 28th, 2021, 05:59 PM   #8
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I know this is kind of out there, but is it possible this issue is being caused because I'm using the IV bottle and have the vacuum for the petcock plugged. I'm just wondering if the pressure from the IV bottle is doing weird things to the carb like maybe pushing too much fuel in it and maybe having the vacuum plugged is doing something... just a thought I guess I'll hook up the tank and try it tomorrow
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So maybe the carbs are even more clogged than I thought. These particular carbs are not easy to get truly clean. At least once per month someone new to the board starts a thread about a problem a lot like yours, and we try to convince them that it's dirty carbs.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 06:53 PM   #9
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I can assure you carb needs further cleaning. Carb-sprays no longer work due to removal of chlorinated compounds. Pee actually works better since it has ammonia.

Have to completely disassemble carb down to every last nut, bolt and individual component. If it can be futher disassembled, it needs to be done.


Then physically scrub all parts and all petrol passages form end to end with scrub-brushes using PEA-based fuel-system cleaner. http://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/10/se...-passages.html

Poke out all bleed holes in jets, emulsion-tubes and carb-venturi with matching size soft copper wire. You'll find it pokes out little plastic dried petrol plugs like little grains of sand. No way that's being dissolved by any kind of solvent. Make sure you re-assemble needle-jet/collar with tapered end facing needle. Micro soda-blast everything.



Many expert mechanics with decades of experience have had to pull carbs 4-5x for ever deeper cleaning before they got it factory-fresh clean and bike ran like new. Best to do full restoration first time around so you don't have to keep on pulling them.

As for petrol-flow into carbs, best to measure and get some numbers. Then you'd know for sure rather than trying out different things without knowing before & after measurements. Bottle is fine since any flow issues would affect both carbs evenly. Unless you need to replace fuel-rail O-rings, which might affect one side more than other, so should be done anyway. Also replace all rubbers such as float-valves, flow-bowl seals, maybe even slide diaphragms as needed.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 07:48 PM   #10
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Carb-sprays no longer work due to removal of chlorinated compounds. Pee actually works better since it has ammonia.
What are you suggesting, Danno?
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Old October 28th, 2021, 07:58 PM   #11
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This is great, great info thx. I'm not discounting what you are saying, but I did completely disassemble them today. I'm just wondering what passage I could have possibly missed.

I will pull them again tommorow and thank you HUGE, for taking the time to write that post. Hopefully my next post will be one of success instead of defeat lol
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I can assure you carb needs further cleaning. Carb-sprays no longer work due to removal of chlorinated compounds. Pee actually works better since it has ammonia.

Have to completely disassemble carb down to every last nut, bolt and individual component. If it can be futher disassembled, it needs to be done.


Then physically scrub all parts and all petrol passages form end to end with scrub-brushes using PEA-based fuel-system cleaner. http://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/10/se...-passages.html

Poke out all bleed holes in jets, emulsion-tubes and carb-venturi with matching size soft copper wire. You'll find it pokes out little plastic dried petrol plugs like little grains of sand. No way that's being dissolved by any kind of solvent. Make sure you re-assemble needle-jet/collar with tapered end facing needle. Micro soda-blast everything.



Many expert mechanics with decades of experience have had to pull carbs 4-5x for ever deeper cleaning before they got it factory-fresh clean and bike ran like new. Best to do full restoration first time around so you don't have to keep on pulling them.

As for petrol-flow into carbs, best to measure and get some numbers. Then you'd know for sure rather than trying out different things without knowing before & after measurements. Bottle is fine since any flow issues would affect both carbs evenly. Unless you need to replace fuel-rail O-rings, which might affect one side more than other, so should be done anyway. Also replace all rubbers such as float-valves, flow-bowl seals, maybe even slide diaphragms as needed.
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Old October 28th, 2021, 08:33 PM   #12
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did you clear out choke circuit? The jets in those aren't removable. Had recent case where they had to be drilled out with micro drill-bit! Dried petrol couldn't even be pushed out with wire!
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Old October 29th, 2021, 06:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
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did you clear out choke circuit? The jets in those aren't removable. Had recent case where they had to be drilled out with micro drill-bit! Dried petrol couldn't even be pushed out with wire!
Did not. I figured the ultra sonic would do that. Where are those located? Pulling carbs - uh gain - today and hitting those and the super teeny tiny ones right under the butterfly in the venturi
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Old October 29th, 2021, 07:43 AM   #14
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The aftermarket exhaust is probably not throwing off the mixture much, as I run mine straight pipe and never had to re-jet from stock and it runs great, but the air filter setup will. If you do not have the stock airbox then your constant velocity carburetor will not have the same vacuum and will not have the same fuel/air mixture.

One last educated guess would be a vacuum leak. I had a dirt bike that did the exact same thing for years and I lived with it, only to discover the problem was a cracked intake boot. I sprayed water all over my engine and noticed the idle sort of stumbling. Then I narrowed it down with a squirt bottle. Other that bad fuel air mixture or vacuum leak I'm not sure what else it could be.
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Old October 29th, 2021, 08:04 AM   #15
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What are you suggesting, Danno?
We've all peed into radiators in middle of desert when radiator overheats right? Just pee through carbs to clean them if you're even thinking about using carb-cleaner spray!!!
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Old October 29th, 2021, 08:27 AM   #16
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We've all peed into radiators in middle of desert when radiator overheats right? Just pee through carbs to clean them if you're even thinking about using carb-cleaner spray!!!
Or every time you see a friend's motorcycle parked, help him out?
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Old October 29th, 2021, 10:03 AM   #17
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Or every time you see a friend's motorcycle parked, help him out?
hehe yeah!
"Hey, what are you doin'?"
"Er... I'm just helping keep your carbs clean man!"
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Old October 29th, 2021, 10:45 AM   #18
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Did not. I figured the ultra sonic would do that. Where are those located? Pulling carbs - uh gain - today and hitting those and the super teeny tiny ones right under the butterfly in the venturi
Did you remove the caps covering the idle mixture screws and remover the screws to clean the passages?

Rubber diaphragms in good condition? Slides manually rise and fall smoothly?
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Old October 29th, 2021, 08:14 PM   #19
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hehe yeah!
"Hey, what are you doin'?"
"Er... I'm just helping keep your carbs clean man!"
Helping? Doubtful, the psi of pee can't hold up to even non-chlorine carb cleaner. And you'd need a lot for the ultrasonic bath. I see problems with this particular diy Danno.

Wow, the internet has gotten weird.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 05:33 AM   #20
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Yes did that.
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Did you remove the caps covering the idle mixture screws and remover the screws to clean the passages?

Rubber diaphragms in good condition? Slides manually rise and fall smoothly?
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Old October 30th, 2021, 05:40 AM   #21
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Ok guys. Carbs pulled again. I'll be shocked if I can find something that the ultra sonic and carb spray missed. Will be fully separating carbs this time too. Seems like the plugs are wet so I'm thinking maybe it's an air passage in the carb that is blocked. We will see....
Thanks to everyone who has chimed in. Just so you know I'm not a random dumbass working on a bike for the first time lol
https://youtube.com/channel/UCSIF32oHckawhBvL6SK8JwA
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Old October 30th, 2021, 10:04 AM   #22
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Also work from carb-venturi back to float-bowls.

Bend copper wire 90-degrees 10mm from tip.
Use that to poke out bleed holes from carb venturi backwards.
Spray compressed air and carb-cleaner spray from there backward as well.

Clear out choke circuits with some wire also


Poke out lateral bleed holes in emulsion-tubes, pilot jets. Dried petrol becomes plastic and no kind of solvents will ever dissolve it again. Requires mechanical removal.

Be sure to drill out mixture-screw plugs and remove screws. Replace O-rings
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Old October 30th, 2021, 10:43 AM   #23
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Thanks I'm doing them right now What do you think I should set the mixture screws at 2 and 1/2 turns out?
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Also work from carb-venturi back to float-bowls.

Bend copper wire 90-degrees 10mm from tip.
Use that to poke out bleed holes from carb venturi backwards.
Spray compressed air and carb-cleaner spray from there backward as well.

Clear out choke circuits with some wire also


Poke out lateral bleed holes in emulsion-tubes, pilot jets. Dried petrol becomes plastic and no kind of solvents will ever dissolve it again. Requires mechanical removal.

Be sure to drill out mixture-screw plugs and remove screws. Replace O-rings
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Old October 30th, 2021, 11:24 AM   #24
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Well, as I suspected, it was not the carbs. Thouroughly cleaned them as per Dannos instructions and have same problem. I knew they should be clean enough after the ultra sonic and carb cleaner. So at least I can rule them out
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Old October 30th, 2021, 12:02 PM   #25
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I guess I need to look at other things. Could it be a crank sensor or maybe something in the ignition is bad. Maybe a ground??

Ready to push this thing off a cliff.

https://youtu.be/mqNxZ0I3m6k

https://youtu.be/YXqHmQC4edM
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Old October 30th, 2021, 12:23 PM   #26
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have you adjusted valve clearances?
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Old October 30th, 2021, 12:28 PM   #27
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have you adjusted valve clearances?
Bike is only showing 4k miles on the clock. Unless it has odometer fraud even with tight valves I don't see it causing this issue and really don't want to tear into something again that has a low chance of being the issue.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 12:49 PM   #28
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https://youtu.be/YXqHmQC4edM
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Old October 30th, 2021, 12:53 PM   #29
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A compression test would tell you if the valves are closing.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 01:27 PM   #30
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Both cyls at 170
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A compression test would tell you if the valves are closing.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 01:32 PM   #31
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Is it possible the drop in K&N and slip on yosh have screwed up the jetting
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Old October 30th, 2021, 01:41 PM   #32
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Is it possible the drop in K&N and slip on yosh have screwed up the jetting
I doubt if they affect idle mixture, but obviously something is keeping the engine from getting enough fuel in the mixture.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 01:42 PM   #33
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modded, kit jetting? post sizes, and needles too.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 01:59 PM   #34
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It's had 98 mains and Input in 105s to see if that helped, it's didn't

Pilots are 38s

Stock needles

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modded, kit jetting? post sizes, and needles too.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 02:16 PM   #35
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pilots not hogged out, 4 sure?

U needle in LH carb, W in RH?
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Old October 30th, 2021, 02:22 PM   #36
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you've synched carbs using proper manometer?

in post #27 you've dismissed valve clearances?

a guy with a "new to him" EX500 (suffering fluctuating idle) was urged to check his....found *all* tight. Suggest you check them, assure they are in spec....that and a return to 98 mains.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 03:03 PM   #37
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My pre-gen with only 2000-miles needed valve-adjustment.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 03:56 PM   #38
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low mileage 500's as well...tight exhaust valves. Always. Exhausts.
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Old October 30th, 2021, 04:10 PM   #39
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Pilots are good.

Needles are specific to side?
I'm not sure about that but would it cause the bike not to rev
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modded, kit jetting? post sizes, and needles too.
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pilots not hogged out, 4 sure?

U needle in LH carb, W in RH?
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Old October 30th, 2021, 04:12 PM   #40
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Name: Jeff
Location: Corinth tx
Join Date: Jul 2019

Motorcycle(s): '85 750 Turbo E2 - '86 600 Ninja - '82 FT 500 Ascot

Posts: 44
Great advice, but getting 170-180 on compression and highly doubtful it's causing my issue in the 2nd vid above ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
you've synched carbs using proper manometer?

in post #27 you've dismissed valve clearances?

a guy with a "new to him" EX500 (suffering fluctuating idle) was urged to check his....found *all* tight. Suggest you check them, assure they are in spec....that and a return to 98 mains.
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