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Old January 20th, 2021, 05:22 PM   #1
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Unhappy Turned on key ignition switch and nothing happened!!

Hi everyone!! I have a big problem with my Ninja 250r 2009 (carb no ecu).
When I turn on the key ignition switch nothing happen, all is deth. Battery it's ok 12,5v, all fuse ok and the 30A fuse too it's ok. All connectors and wiring are ok, nothing broken or touching ground. When I disconnect the indicators panel connector, I turn on the key and I have position light on the tail and turn ligths too, but only that. I suspect that the problem would be the CDI or CI (ignition controller), but I dont know how to test it. If the CDI won't work the ingnition key do nothing? Any ideas?? Thanks!!!!
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Old January 20th, 2021, 08:45 PM   #2
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Measure the battery voltage on the actual battery terminals while you're trying to start it.
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Old January 20th, 2021, 09:05 PM   #3
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Measure the battery voltage on the actual battery terminals while you're trying to start it.
Ok thanks, but what's would be happend or be the sense of doing that?
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Old January 20th, 2021, 10:46 PM   #4
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Will tell you condition of battery.

Do you know how to measure resistance with multimeter?
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Old January 21st, 2021, 05:38 AM   #5
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Will tell you condition of battery.

Do you know how to measure resistance with multimeter?
Ok I understand but I don't beleive that the problem be on the battery. The battery is a Japanease Yuasa 9A with one or two years and I don't have any evidence of malfunction. I have 12v and before the problem works perfect and start immediately. I will test it again but I need another ideas.

To test the battery what I have to see on a multimeter? Thanks!!
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Old January 21st, 2021, 05:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falonso0 View Post
Ok thanks, but what's would be happend or be the sense of doing that?
Batteries can read 12+ volts when the bike is parked and no current is being drawn, but if they're not capable of supplying high current, the voltage will drop to a low voltage once you try to start the engine. Making the measurement I suggested is very easy to do, and will rule out a battery problem.

Just read the battery voltage while you're trying to start the engine and tell us what it was. It needs to stay up a volt or so from what it was before you tried to start it.

Always start with the easy tests.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 06:00 AM   #7
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Batteries can read 12+ volts when the bike is parked and no current is being drawn, but if they're not capable of supplying high current, the voltage will drop to a low voltage once you try to start the engine. Making the measurement I suggested is very easy to do, and will rule out a battery problem.

Just read the battery voltage while you're trying to start the engine and tell us what it was. It needs to stay up a volt or so from what it was before you tried to start it.

Always start with the easy tests.
Ahh ok I understand now. The problem is that I can't start because I don't have contact or any light on the dash panel when I turn the key on. I don' knows how to explain that with other words. I don't have anything when I turn on de key, anything. Pleas read again my firs post if you can. Thanks again.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 06:50 AM   #8
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Ahh ok I understand now. The problem is that I can't start because I don't have contact or any light on the dash panel when I turn the key on. I don' knows how to explain that with other words. I don't have anything when I turn on de key, anything. Pleas read again my firs post if you can. Thanks again.
If the battery is bad enough all this can happen. Your battery may be OK, but we won't know until you connect a meter to it and turn on the key. It doesn't matter if you can't operate the starter... you just need to measure the battery voltage under load. We really shouldn't go any farther until we know for sure that your battery is capable of supplying current.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 07:28 AM   #9
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If the battery is bad enough all this can happen. Your battery may be OK, but we won't know until you connect a meter to it and turn on the key. It doesn't matter if you can't operate the starter... you just need to measure the battery voltage under load. We really shouldn't go any farther until we know for sure that your battery is capable of supplying current.
Ok I will test it to discard this at all. But my common sense tell me that is not possible that a low amperage can't turn on anything and when I disconnect the dashboard I have stop and turn lights.. If the battery is so bad there is other signs before that and in this case doesn't exist.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 07:28 AM   #10
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I vote that the battery is toast.

Doesn't matter how old it is, or that it worked yesterday. They will quit without warning.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 09:13 AM   #11
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If the battery is bad enough all this can happen. Your battery may be OK, but we won't know until you connect a meter to it and turn on the key. It doesn't matter if you can't operate the starter... you just need to measure the battery voltage under load. We really shouldn't go any farther until we know for sure that your battery is capable of supplying current.
Confirmed, when I turn on the key the voltage is the same... No battery voltage under load..
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Old January 21st, 2021, 09:22 AM   #12
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I vote that the battery is toast.

Doesn't matter how old it is, or that it worked yesterday. They will quit without warning.
Hopefully be the battery!

I'm not agree at all.. battery can fail but not without warning in my experience. When the battery is going to die you note low amperage on start. In this case I rpobe that the battery is not dead when I disconnect the dashboard.

Battery voltage is the same when I turn on the key 12,3v.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 10:59 AM   #13
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OK so we finally got past the battery as the cause of the trouble!
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Old January 21st, 2021, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falonso0 View Post
Ok I will test it to discard this at all. But my common sense tell me that is not possible that a low amperage can't turn on anything and when I disconnect the dashboard I have stop and turn lights.. If the battery is so bad there is other signs before that and in this case doesn't exist.
So when you disconnect dash, brake-light and turn signals work when they didn't before? What about taillight?

Does activating on/off kill-switch and pushing start-button work to crank enging when you've disconnected dash?

we might need to test for shorts in dash circuits next....
Any non-stock mods to wiring?
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Old January 21st, 2021, 11:37 AM   #15
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OK so we finally got past the battery as the cause of the trouble!
Exactly any other idea? Do you kbow how to test the CDI?
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Old January 21st, 2021, 11:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falonso0 View Post
Hopefully be the battery!

I'm not agree at all.. battery can fail but not without warning in my experience. When the battery is going to die you note low amperage on start. In this case I rpobe that the battery is not dead when I disconnect the dashboard.

Battery voltage is the same when I turn on the key 12,3v.
That's odd, because it shouldn't be.

There should be some difference between the voltage with and without the ignition on.

What happens when you hit the button? Does the voltage change? Is there any clicking?

12.3V (no load) is only about 65% charged. With the starter motor cranking you should still get over 10V on a fully charged battery.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 12:51 PM   #17
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So when you disconnect dash, brake-light and turn signals work when they didn't before? What about taillight?
Exactly! Taillight and front&rear brake sensors too

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Does activating on/off kill-switch and pushing start-button work to crank enging when you've disconnected dash?
No, nothing else than those that mentioned before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
we might need to test for shorts in dash circuits next....
Yes, I isolated the fuel indicators and tachometer and the same problem..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Any non-stock mods to wiring?
Nothing... I have led turn lights but are disconnected with the firings.. and I have a teillight with turn lights embedded but is working fine..
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Old January 21st, 2021, 12:57 PM   #18
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we might need to test for shorts in dash circuits next....
I don't think he'll find any shorts, since he said that all fuses are OK.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 01:03 PM   #19
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That's odd, because it shouldn't be.

There should be some difference between the voltage with and without the ignition on.

What happens when you hit the button? Does the voltage change? Is there any clicking?

12.3V (no load) is only about 65% charged. With the starter motor cranking you should still get over 10V on a fully charged battery.
When I hit the button, nothing happend, the voltage is the same, no clicking, nothing...
Ok 12.3v is not fully charged but the dash should be on.. I can charge it at all, I have a charger but I don't believe that this is the problem..
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Old January 21st, 2021, 01:54 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by falonso0 View Post
When I hit the button, nothing happend, the voltage is the same, no clicking, nothing...
Ok 12.3v is not fully charged but the dash should be on.. I can charge it at all, I have a charger but I don't believe that this is the problem..
Then the problem is somewhere in the wiring or electrical contacts.

Start tracing power/resistance from the fuse to the dash. Seems as though there is a broken wire or open connection somewhere.
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Old January 21st, 2021, 03:03 PM   #21
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Then the problem is somewhere in the wiring or electrical contacts.

Start tracing power/resistance from the fuse to the dash. Seems as though there is a broken wire or open connection somewhere.
Yes I'm agree with you and I suspect that the circuit remain open inside the CDI. If you check the wiring diagram the dash appear to depend on the CDI to short the circuit but I'm not sure at all.
A good test will be to remove the CDI on a working Ninja 250r and see if the dash turn on when the key is on. But I don't have another Ninja 250r jajaj
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Old January 21st, 2021, 05:43 PM   #22
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Nah, igniter and dash don't depend on each other for anything; power supplies and grounds are completely independent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by falonso0 View Post
Ok I will test it to discard this at all. But my common sense tell me that is not possible that a low amperage can't turn on anything and when I disconnect the dashboard I have stop and turn lights [+taillight].. If the battery is so bad there is other signs before that and in this case doesn't exist.
This is clue... I'm going to look over wiring-diagram closely to see what kind of wiring fault would disable these lights when dash is plugged in. Dash is receive-only instruments, nothing depends upon dash to work. On my 2008 race-bike, I remove dash to save weight and everything worked exactly same. Seems you have two or three independent problems. Lights & dash and starter circuits.

1. When turn-signals flash with dash disconnected, do all FOUR flash at same time? Or can you do separate left & right signals?

2. Remove LED turn-signals and re-install OEM incandescent bulbs in. Any other non-stock mods? Restore bike and wiring back to 100% stock OEM condition. When that is done, everything will work properly.

3. Are you using original ignition-switch that came with bike?

4. How did you determine, "all fuse ok and the 30A fuse too it's ok. All connectors and wiring are ok,"?



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Old January 22nd, 2021, 06:57 AM   #23
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I don't believe the ignition (CDI) is part of the problem.

As Danno noted - is the ignition switch original? Have you installed any replacement electrical parts?

If you follow Danno's instructions you will locate the problem eventually.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 07:19 AM   #24
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I can tell you for sure that CDI is never a problem in a stock Ninja 250.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 08:31 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
As Danno noted - is the ignition switch original? Have you installed any replacement electrical parts?
I'd suggest to break out the multimeter...check continuity of ignition switch connections in all its 3 positions...Off, ON, and PARK, confirming to Ignition Switch Connection...shown at bottom of chart which @DannoXYZ has so graciously provided above.

There are solder joints and physical, moving electrical contacts housed within the switch, which should be eliminated from the troubleshooting process
sooner than later, IMHO.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 08:32 AM   #26
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Nah, igniter and dash don't depend on each other for anything; power supplies are completely different.

Ok

This is clue... I'm going to look over wiring-diagram closely to see what kind of wiring fault would disable these lights when dash is plugged in. Dash is receive-only instruments, nothing depends upon dash to work. On my 2008 race-bike, I remove dash to save weight and everything worked exactly same. Seems you have two or three independent problems. Lights & dash and starter circuits.

Ok thanks!

1. When turn-signals flash with dash disconnected, do all FOUR flash at same time? Or can you do separate left & right signals?

No, when I disconnect the dash and turn on the key, the tail position light goes on. Then if you activate left signal its power on left light o with right signal the same thing independently. And if you press front or rear brake, turns on the tail brake light. Turn signals doesn't flash beacause front leds are on the firings and are disconnected. it's the only thing that works.

2. Remove LED turn-signals and re-install OEM incandescent bulbs in. Any other non-stock mods? Restore bike and wiring back to 100% stock OEM condition. When that is done, everything will work properly.

The only non-stock mod are turn signals front and rear. Front signals are disconected, and rear (integrated stop and signals) works fine. I tried disconnect it but nothing changed.


3. Are you using original ignition-switch that came with bike?

Yes, original that came with the bike.

4. How did you determine, "all fuse ok and the 30A fuse too it's ok. All connectors and wiring are ok,"?

Visually. Disconnecting one by one each fuse and cleaning contacts, I was trying to turn on the key (to isolate fuse circuits). No fuse was broken and no changes on each test. 30A not broken too. Connectors are tight and wiring are vissualy healthy on the whole bike. I still have to test continuity.

this time I am with a charged battery, but no chages neither.

Thanks Danno! Hopefully we find something to try



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Old January 22nd, 2021, 08:39 AM   #27
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I'd suggest to break out the multimeter...check continuity of ignition switch, in all its 3 positions...Off, ON, and PARK, confirming to Service Manual data.

There are solder joints and physical, moving electrical contacts within the switch, which should be eliminated from the troubleshooting process
sooner than later, IMHO.
Thanks Ducatiman! Yes I think that this is the next step.. but I will wait Dannos suggestions first.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 08:40 AM   #28
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I can tell you for sure that CDI is never a problem in a stock Ninja 250.
For me it would be a relief!
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 08:50 AM   #29
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Thanks Ducatiman! Yes I think that this is the next step.. but I will wait Dannos suggestions first.
Fully your call , but a continuity check on the switch not invasive nor destructive in any sense. Hammer not exactly required, ya' know?
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 08:59 AM   #30
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Fully your call , but a continuity check on the switch not invasive nor destructive in any sense. Hammer not exactly required, ya' know?
More or less, to get to the ignition key cables I need to puncture the cable because otherwise I have to disassemble the switch :/
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 10:02 AM   #31
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Turn signals doesn't flash beacause front leds are on the firings and are disconnected. it's the only thing that works.
So you separated front turn-signal from rear?

No need to puncture wires to measure, just back-probe connectors:



From studying schematic, I can't figure out how dash can possibly disable turn-signal lights. I suspect there's some non-stock wiring done somewhere. It could be there's criss-crossed reverse-polarity wiring done somewhere so that +12v is connected to ground of turn-signals with dash plugged in. One-way flow of LED would prevent current from flowing and blowing fuse. But it would also prevent LED from lighting up. This is similar to how alternator charge-lamps are triggered on autos with +12v going into both sides of bulb. If you remove ALL non-stock wiring and restore to 100% OEM wiring, bike will run perfect. If not, we do A LOT of testing...

1. First, show us photos of how you have LED lights connected to factory harness. And anything else that's not 100% factory. It's some modification away from stock that caused this problem, we need to inspect all mods. Even a piece of aftermarket electrical tape used to tie wires together needs to be documented.

Let's leave dash disconnected for now. Find wire-bundle leaving ignition-switch and trace it to 1st connector. Back-probe ignition-switch harness-side connector. Use test-lead w/alligator-clip to keep ground-probe of multimeter connected to battery-ground. Frees up one of 3-hands needed.

2. KEY OFF
BR = voltage ??
W = voltage ??
R/BL = voltage ??
W/BK = voltage ??
W/G = voltage ??
GY = voltage ??

3. KEY ON
BR = voltage ??
W = voltage ??
R/BL = voltage ??
W/BK = voltage ??
W/G = voltage ??
GY = voltage ??

4. KEY ON, backprobe fuse-box
W/G = voltage ???
O/G = voltage ???
BR/W = voltage ???
BR/BK = voltage ???
R/BL = voltage ???
GY = voltage ???
BR = voltage ???
W/BL = voltage ???
W = voltage ???

The states of these lines should give more clues to where problem lies. These also includes continuity tests ducatiman mentioned.

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Old January 22nd, 2021, 10:22 AM   #32
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Again, easiest and fastest fix is to restore wiring back to 100% stock condition with incandescent bulbs. Bike worked 100% when it left showroom floor with OEM harness, and it will again once harness is restored to 100% OEM. It was mods that broke it, and undoing mods will restore to working condtion.

Once it's back to 100% factory condition and working, I'll show you how to wiring in LED lamps properly so it works with factory wiring. Unlike incandescent bulbs, LEDs are polarity-sensitive and can only be wired in one way.

If you've cut factory wiring to install LED, you need to restore factory wiring connectors to factory condition. Get:

2x female 2-position HB050 male connectors (1 blue, 1 orange)
4x male 2-position HB050 female connectors (2 blue, 2 orange)
http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__...onnectors.html

I know, it's Honda colours, but is same connectors as black & grey used by Kawi.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; January 22nd, 2021 at 04:01 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 04:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Does your LED turn-signal flash at double-speed?
No, flash at normal speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
No need to puncture wires to measure, just back-probe connectors:

Yes I need, I understand that you say and I know that, but I don't want to remove the fuel tank. If I want to know if there is continuity to the key without dessasemble it, I need to puncture the cable close to the key to know if the issue is inside or not the key.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post


From studying schematic, I can't figure out how dash can possibly disable turn-signal lights. I suspect there's some non-stock wiring done somewhere. It could be there's criss-crossed reverse-polarity wiring done somewhere so that +12v is connected to ground of turn-signals with dash plugged in. One-way flow of LED would prevent current from flowing and blowing fuse. But it would also prevent LED from lighting up. This is similar to how alternator charge-lamps are triggered on autos with +12v going into both sides of bulb. If you remove ALL non-stock wiring and restore to 100% OEM wiring, bike will run perfect. If not, we do A LOT of testing...
A new test show me that the turn signals works fine. This is hard to explain. They always worked well because the test was always done with the front turns unplugged and therefore with the dash connected they did not turn on. The problem was, I discovered that if the taillight (position) was without tension, the built-in turns of the tail would not turn-on if the front turns are not connected. Then I connect the front turns and they work perfectly with normal flash (front and rear) but without position light and brake light.
In short, now if I connect the dash I have front and rear turns with the turn signal indicator in the dash (green light) and nothing else. If I disconnect the dash I have front and rear turns and also stop and brake lights and nothing else. When I say nothing else I want to say that the rest buttons, lights etc doesn't work at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
1. First, show us photos of how you have LED lights connected to factory harness. And anything else that's not 100% factory. It's some modification away from stock that caused this problem, we need to inspect all mods. Even a piece of aftermarket electrical tape used to tie wires together needs to be documented.
I will show photos soon but I'm pretty sure I don't have a problem with turns. I have installed them for years and never had problems, they are well polarized with the correct resistor and dicipator. Each front led turns have a similar to this:
https://d114hh0cykhyb0.cloudfront.ne...jpg&w=585&zc=2

I have a taillight similar to this:
https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/...q7v/s-l300.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Let's leave dash disconnected for now. Find wire-bundle leaving ignition-switch and trace it to 1st connector. Back-probe ignition-switch harness-side connector. Use test-lead w/alligator-clip to keep ground-probe of multimeter connected to battery-ground. Frees up one of 3-hands needed.

2. KEY OFF
BR = voltage ??
W = voltage ??
R/BL = voltage ??
W/BK = voltage ??
W/G = voltage ??
GY = voltage ??

3. KEY ON
BR = voltage ??
W = voltage ??
R/BL = voltage ??
W/BK = voltage ??
W/G = voltage ??
GY = voltage ??

4. KEY ON, backprobe fuse-box
W/G = voltage ???
O/G = voltage ???
BR/W = voltage ???
BR/BK = voltage ???
R/BL = voltage ???
GY = voltage ???
BR = voltage ???
W/BL = voltage ???
W = voltage ???

The states of these lines should give more clues to where problem lies.

Ok I will try to do that but do you know the color of the cable according the wiring diagram?
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Again, easiest and fastest fix is to restore wiring back to 100% stock condition with incandescent bulbs. Bike worked 100% when it left showroom floor with OEM harness, and it will again once harness is restored to 100% OEM. It was mods that broke it, and undoing mods will restore to working condtion.

Once it's back to 100% factory condition and working, I'll show you how to wiring in LED lamps properly so it works with factory wiring. Unlike incandescent bulbs, LEDs are polarity-sensitive and can only be wired in one way.

If you've cut factory wiring to install LED, you need to restore factory wiring connectors to factory condition. Get:

2x female 2-position HB050 male connectors (1 blue, 1 orange)
4x male 2-position HB050 female connectors (2 blue, 2 orange)
http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__...onnectors.html

I know, it's Honda colours, but is same connectors as black & grey used by Kawi.
I would agree if the mods didn't work, but having the possibility to disconnect and isolate them of the problem, I see no reason to leave everything original. I never cuted factory wiring, I always used conectors.

Something I never mentioned is how the problem started. I went out for a ride with my girlfriend and left the motorcycle parked. When I return I try to start and only hear the starter motor but it does not start (sometimes it happens to me and turning the key off and then on it works fine). So I turn off the key, turn on and it start. After 3/5 seconds it turns off and I try the same thing again while go down the sidewalk and that's where I ran out of dash and had to call a motorcycle crane because I could not find the problem since everything I could try seemed to be fine... Now I´m at home trying to repair that
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:21 PM   #35
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"turning the key off and then on it works fine"

Red flag! Intermittent electrical connection needs to be eliminated. You really sure you don't want to do that internal ignition switch circuit check?
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:32 PM   #36
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"turning the key off and then on it works fine"

Red flag! You really sure you don't want to do that internal ignition switch circuit check?
Yes! it's not that, it's that I don't have the tool to open the drum of the key and I don't know how to remove and open it
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:46 PM   #37
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Well, at this point, it appears ignition-switch is intermittent. To replace, you'll have to remove tank anyway.

I takes no more than 30-sec to remove tank. Imagine being able to fix your problem in 5-minutes. All it takes it removing tank.

While you have tank off, do those tests I outlined above. While you wait for new ignition-switch to arrive.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:52 PM   #38
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This is different bug separate from ignition-switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by falonso0 View Post
A new test show me that the turn signals works fine. This is hard to explain. They always worked well because the test was always done with the front turns unplugged and therefore with the dash connected they did not turn on. The problem was, I discovered that if the taillight (position) was without tension, the built-in turns of the tail would not turn-on if the front turns are not connected. Then I connect the front turns and they work perfectly with normal flash (front and rear) but without position light and brake light.
In short, now if I connect the dash I have front and rear turns with the turn signal indicator in the dash (green light) and nothing else. If I disconnect the dash I have front and rear turns and also stop and brake lights and nothing else. When I say nothing else I want to say that the rest buttons, lights etc doesn't work at all.

Still does not explain why dash disables turn-signals, that's only symptoms or effects afterwards.

There is major wiring issue because turn-signals DO NOT depend upon dash. Only connection between turn-signals and dash is indicator-light on dash when turn-signals are activated. Two wires only. Plugging dash in should NOT disable any lights.

Until you fix wiring and restore to 100% OEM configuration where ALL lights work with dash connected, there's no way we can fix any of it. Too many unknowns. Need more data and you are only one that can provide that data by measuring.

This is different problem than ignition-switch, and may require you to remove more than just tank. Might need to remove engine and crankshaft as well.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:55 PM   #39
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That said, you do not understand procedure. No need to open switch, you are testing continuity (again see wiring schem that danno posted) between termiinals within the connectors after being disconnected from harness.

The switch comprised of the lock section (upper) and electrical section (lower)
I'd be mighty suspicious of intermittent wiring connections within, memory serves there are both soldered terminals and a moving contact plate inside there.
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Old January 22nd, 2021, 05:57 PM   #40
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Well, at this point, it appears ignition-switch is intermittent. To replace, you'll have to remove tank anyway.

I takes no more than 30-sec to remove tank. Imagine being able to fix your problem in 5-minutes. All it takes it removing tank.

Ok if there is no other option there is no problem, I try not to do it because I always have problems with the fuel valve, I don't know how to close it. But this is not the only problem, I don´t have the tool to remove the ignition switch.


While you have tank off, do those tests I outlined above. While you wait for new ignition-switch to arrive.

Ok I will try, but I don't know if I'm going to buy a new one, first I'll try to fix it.

Still does not explain why dash disables turn-signals. That's a different problem, and may require you to remove more than just tank. Might need to remove engine and crankshaft as well.

If you read above I had commented to you that the turns now works fine with the dash.
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