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Old July 18th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #1
CZroe
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I think I need clutch service/friction plates replaced. :(

I've been engine-braking a lot more recently because I can't afford a new rotor and my rear brake pads are almost gone. The last service guys said not to bother changing the pads without a new rotor because it will just ruin them by bedding in with the deep concentric circles of wear.

I think all the engine-braking has taken its toll on my clutch because I very quickly noticed that the friction zone was getting closer and closer to the point where the lever rests (with proper slack). It's almost at the end!

From what I understand by reading here, I will need to replace the friction plates. How much do the parts typically cost? How much does the service typically cost? Is it something someone like me can do with a socket wrench, parts, and an afternoon? I'm no mechanic and even changing the oil was an adventure for me, though I have made myself comfortable with removing the wheels and fairings and I did replace a set of brake pads once.

I need a valve service too so I think I'd rather just get a used engine but I'd definitely need to pay for the service to install a whole engine!

Last futzed with by CZroe; July 22nd, 2011 at 11:03 AM.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 02:01 PM   #2
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Good god man how many miles do you have on this thing?

Am I crazy or are you constantly having some sort of problem with this thing? Didn't you do the chain and sprokets recently? Why does it need rotors? We're the pads too worn causing the damage?

Maybe a new engine or a crashed parts bike is your answer.


Just trying to save myself from this stuff.

Edit: Don't mean to be harsh or anything if it comes across that way. I feel pretty bad actually and think I would have sold it or rolled it off a cliff by now so you're a more persistent man than I.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #3
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OK so first things first. How is the front rotor? I only ask because you didn't mention it. As for the rear brake. I barely use mine and I shudder at the thought of using it enough to wear out the rotor.

Check the cable adjuster on the clutch perch first, see if you can adjust the cable to get the engagement where you want it. Then check the motor side of the cable. If possible try to look for signs that it has moved. These bikes vibe a lot, I have had bolts work loose so far, so I doesn't seem like a stretch that the cable fittings could have vibrated to a different position.

If that doesn't work then unfortunately it may be the clutch.

If you have to go the replacement route then I would get quotes for all the issues you have and see how much it will all cost you. Then compare that to the cost of a new 250. You could just trade the thing in to a dealership toward a new ex250. I wouldn't worry about telling them the issues with it if they ask, most of what you are paying for is shop time, so to them it wouldn't be such an issue to fix yours and resell it.

That way you end up with a new bike and piece of mind, instead of paying 1/4 - 1/3 the cost of a new bike and constantly wonder "what's next"

Hell you could trade it in toward a new CBR250r

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Old July 18th, 2011, 07:19 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by TeamGreen View Post
Good god man how many miles do you have on this thing?

Am I crazy or are you constantly having some sort of problem with this thing? Didn't you do the chain and sprokets recently? Why does it need rotors? We're the pads too worn causing the damage?

Maybe a new engine or a crashed parts bike is your answer.


Just trying to save myself from this stuff.

Edit: Don't mean to be harsh or anything if it comes across that way. I feel pretty bad actually and think I would have sold it or rolled it off a cliff by now so you're a more persistent man than I.
Passed 24K miles today. I not only replaced the chain and sprockets two months ago, but I recently found that the extra links on my new chain had been improperly removed causing wear and an O-ring was shredded. It was probably like that for the whole two months! I couldn't afford a crashed parts bike either. Anyway, it's my only transportation and I'm too poor to change that any time soon, so persistence is my only option!

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OK so first things first. How is the front rotor? I only ask because you didn't mention it. As for the rear brake. I barely use mine and I shudder at the thought of using it enough to wear out the rotor.

Check the cable adjuster on the clutch perch first, see if you can adjust the cable to get the engagement where you want it. Then check the motor side of the cable. If possible try to look for signs that it has moved. These bikes vibe a lot, I have had bolts work loose so far, so I doesn't seem like a stretch that the cable fittings could have vibrated to a different position.

If that doesn't work then unfortunately it may be the clutch.

If you have to go the replacement route then I would get quotes for all the issues you have and see how much it will all cost you. Then compare that to the cost of a new 250. You could just trade the thing in to a dealership toward a new ex250. I wouldn't worry about telling them the issues with it if they ask, most of what you are paying for is shop time, so to them it wouldn't be such an issue to fix yours and resell it.

That way you end up with a new bike and piece of mind, instead of paying 1/4 - 1/3 the cost of a new bike and constantly wonder "what's next"

Hell you could trade it in toward a new CBR250r

Bob
Front rotor is fine. The rear has concentric rings of varying thickness worn into them (feels like ripples when you pinch the inner diameter and drag your fingers out). I followed MSF and CA/GA motorcycle driver's manual guidelines, using both brakes and applying what I considered to be 70%-80% of my stopping power with the front brake, so I always checked the front and assumed that the rear was fine at least until the front pads needed to be replaced, but the rear somehow ran out at 6K miles while the front still had plenty of meat (replaced those at 11.5K). I dunno... maybe it just suddenly crumbled away. Either way, there was metal-on-rotor contact, but I've put on 17K miles since then so it's not so bad. I got a lot more life out of it, I just didn't know it needed to be replaced until recently.

The clutch lever has the right amount of play/slack and increasing that to move my friction zone further away from almost fully-forward would just create a false perception of that from having it misadjusted and it would likely make me lose another clutch cable with all the excess exposed cable core (I had one snap last year). When I replaced the cable, the clutch part it attaches to where it enters the motor had to be lifted and rotated to get it back down and, though it no longer stuck out, I was never really sure that it went all the way back down. Even so, that was many thousands of miles ago.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 09:49 PM   #5
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clutch is a quick fix under a 100 bucks. I've done it...
Your friction plates are likely good, but the steel plates in between are scorched.
You need no special tools...just get a service manual, pm me if you need a pdf version. Open up the engine case take a look at the plates then see what needs replacing from there...may as well replace everything though if you have higher miles, its not too expensive.

forgot to ask if you're experiencing clutch slippage?? where your rpms rise but you have no increase in speed, or you shift gears when at high rpms but it just sits there rather than dropping back down.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 10:17 PM   #6
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post some pictures of your rotors. All rotors groove from wear and can look worse than they actually are. Service guy might just be trying for more $$. And if you can't afford rotors, you can't afford rotors; but you need brakes. Buy the pads. As for the clutch... if you aren't noticing any slippage when you are up shifting you are still okay. BUT as you say you are using up all your adjustment fast, so your friction plates are wearing fast. If you change them BEFORE you start noticing actual slipping your steel plates should be okay. I would also put in stronger new clutch springs.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 07:46 AM   #7
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clutch is a quick fix under a 100 bucks. I've done it...
Your friction plates are likely good, but the steel plates in between are scorched.
You need no special tools...just get a service manual, pm me if you need a pdf version. Open up the engine case take a look at the plates then see what needs replacing from there...may as well replace everything though if you have higher miles, its not too expensive.

forgot to ask if you're experiencing clutch slippage?? where your rpms rise but you have no increase in speed, or you shift gears when at high rpms but it just sits there rather than dropping back down.
Any reason why yours wore out so soon? I feel that I'm on the verge of detectable clutch slippage because the friction zone is so close to the fully released position, but it still engages and pulls at all speeds. My fuel economy has never been great so I have to wonder if it has always been slipping a bit. I do have the PDF (thanks). Now, I hear that these are "wet" clutches. Does that mean I'm going to have to drain the oil if I do it myself? I also don't have a garage and are officially not supposed to even do oil changes in my parking space, much less, opening the clutch, but I've seen people get away with changing their car's radiator and such so I'm not too concerned. That said, I am concerned with contaminations from the environment. Dust, bits of leaves, bird crap, etc are a major threat in my parking space and I'm not sure if it's the best environment for having an open clutch. Should I have a better environment for the job or is it not as sensitive to contamination as I'm making it out to be?

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post some pictures of your rotors. All rotors groove from wear and can look worse than they actually are. Service guy might just be trying for more $$. And if you can't afford rotors, you can't afford rotors; but you need brakes. Buy the pads. As for the clutch... if you aren't noticing any slippage when you are up shifting you are still okay. BUT as you say you are using up all your adjustment fast, so your friction plates are wearing fast. If you change them BEFORE you start noticing actual slipping your steel plates should be okay. I would also put in stronger new clutch springs.
He had me compare it to the front to prove that something was wrong and, yes, it is very different. The front is wearing uniformly and the back has some pretty severe ripples. I already had the pads and was ready to put them on when he made the suggestion that I wait until I get a new rotor. i do trust the guys after they identified a previous dealer's bad work on my 2010 chain, but I also think they messed up my 2011 chain.

I'm not sure if it'll show in pics but I'll try to get some today.

Anyway, what symptoms would worn plates have? Do they sell stronger grade clutch springs or are you saying that new is stronger than old/worn?

Thanks, guys.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 12:41 PM   #8
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This guy is always tearing into his bike haha.
animal.

Quote:
I think all the engine-braking has taken its toll on my clutch because I very quickly noticed that the friction zone was getting closer and closer to the point where the lever rests (with proper slack). It's almost at the end!
By chance have you replaced your clutch cable or checked it for stretch?

Sometimes they can give quite a bit before they snap, feeling like the clutch is going out.

Just a thought. First thing I would do if I was gonna replace the clutch is replace the cable too, while I was at it. Redo the whole damn thing.

I have a couple valve jobs under my belt and I'm not a slob service technician behind a wall you can't see wrenching on your bike.
I have a (very) fair price and a garage. Let me know..
I provide numbers when I'm done too.

If anything goes wrong you can get the spare engine after the fact. lol
Much better chance at saving big bucks.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #9
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Rear rotor with wave:
photo 1.jpg

Front rotor with no wave:
photo 2.jpg

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Originally Posted by ninja250 View Post
This guy is always tearing into his bike haha.
animal.

By chance have you replaced your clutch cable or checked it for stretch?

Sometimes they can give quite a bit before they snap, feeling like the clutch is going out.

Just a thought. First thing I would do if I was gonna replace the clutch is replace the cable too, while I was at it. Redo the whole damn thing.

I have a couple valve jobs under my belt and I'm not a slob service technician behind a wall you can't see wrenching on your bike.
I have a (very) fair price and a garage. Let me know..
I provide numbers when I'm done too.

If anything goes wrong you can get the spare engine after the fact. lol
Much better chance at saving big bucks.
My clutch cable out-right snapped back in October. I had it repaired. If it were stretched then I would have a lot of slack (I don't). If it were too short then I would have none (I do).

Are you saying that you'll do a valve job cheaply if I rode up to you? How much? I was going to post a wanted ad on Craigslist today. What about the rest of the service other than the oil change (plugs, shims, etc)? Also, I know you are supposed to let it cool overnight before making the measurements so I don't know what I'd do in LA for a couple days!
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Old July 19th, 2011, 09:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
Any reason why yours wore out so soon? I feel that I'm on the verge of detectable clutch slippage because the friction zone is so close to the fully released position, but it still engages and pulls at all speeds. My fuel economy has never been great so I have to wonder if it has always been slipping a bit. I do have the PDF (thanks). Now, I hear that these are "wet" clutches. Does that mean I'm going to have to drain the oil if I do it myself? I also don't have a garage and are officially not supposed to even do oil changes in my parking space, much less, opening the clutch, but I've seen people get away with changing their car's radiator and such so I'm not too concerned. That said, I am concerned with contaminations from the environment. Dust, bits of leaves, bird crap, etc are a major threat in my parking space and I'm not sure if it's the best environment for having an open clutch. Should I have a better environment for the job or is it not as sensitive to contamination as I'm making it out to be
I wore it out at 20k miles mostly due to wheelie and burnout attempts
Completely my fault, my friction plates still looked pretty good but the steel plates were scorched blue...

If the bike is on side stand you don't have to drain the oil, but when you open the engine case you will lose a little oil so a drain pan is advisable. Be careful if you tilt it upright...or you'll have a nasty spill.

If you're need to leave it over night just pop the cover back on and tighten 3-4 screws, that should keep it secure until you open it again.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 10:36 PM   #11
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Okay....Back rotor looks pretty bad. How long before you can afford a new rotor? How much wear you got left on your front pads? Cause here is an option...Run your rear pads down to nothing, put your new pads in the front and your old front pads in the back and hopefully before they wear down to nothing you can save up enough for your new rotor and pads for the rear. Just an option I know your money is tight and this is only delaying the inevitable, but it will buy you time.

Your clutch ...try screwing your perch adjuster all the way back in and then take slack out of you cable using the lower adjustment. If that doesn't help, chances are it's time to start looking at replacing the plates. When you go looking for a replacement check into Barnett clutches and racing clutch springs. they are usually quite reasonable.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 05:36 AM   #12
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I wore it out at 20k miles mostly due to wheelie and burnout attempts
Completely my fault, my friction plates still looked pretty good but the steel plates were scorched blue...

If the bike is on side stand you don't have to drain the oil, but when you open the engine case you will lose a little oil so a drain pan is advisable. Be careful if you tilt it upright...or you'll have a nasty spill.

If you're need to leave it over night just pop the cover back on and tighten 3-4 screws, that should keep it secure until you open it again.
Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do.
Quote:
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Okay....Back rotor looks pretty bad. How long before you can afford a new rotor? How much wear you got left on your front pads? Cause here is an option...Run your rear pads down to nothing, put your new pads in the front and your old front pads in the back and hopefully before they wear down to nothing you can save up enough for your new rotor and pads for the rear. Just an option I know your money is tight and this is only delaying the inevitable, but it will buy you time.

Your clutch ...try screwing your perch adjuster all the way back in and then take slack out of you cable using the lower adjustment. If that doesn't help, chances are it's time to start looking at replacing the plates. When you go looking for a replacement check into Barnett clutches and racing clutch springs. they are usually quite reasonable.
Switching the pads from the front to the rear has been exactly what I was planning but, after looking at them, I think they both need replacement now. I'll be putting on new pads in the front very soon just to see. IIRC, I put organic pads on the rear last Fall and they are already almost gone. At the same time I was going to put sintered on the front but I realized only after taking the caliper off that it didn't even nearly need it yet, so it have been getting worn down ever since.

I do see take-off rotors on eBay for about $60 shipped but I'm still broke! Stockers Motorcycle Salvage didn't have any.

Anyway, Barnett doesn't seem to mention price anywhere except a note that they are holding their prices at the 2010 levels. I guess I'll be stopping by Stark Cycles again soon.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 08:50 AM   #13
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If you are in SD, I'm a bit closer than you may think.
If it comes down to it and you feel confortable, I can do your valve job for about half what a shop will. It takes about 24 hours. I will wait a few hours for your engine to cool but not all day. It is aluminum.. by the time I break it down and get the cover off it will be mostly cool. My garage has A/C.

I have shims.

You need to bring coolant (2 bottles of 50/50) and oil (2 quarts) and filter and spark plugs and oil o-ring and crush washer.

The best part is I actually give you real numbers from what I measure.

Only problem is we need somewhere for you to stay for 24 hours lol.
You could just sit there and watch if you'd like.
If you got here super early (4am?) we may have you out the door by nightfall?

Sort out your clutch issue and get back to me if needed.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 04:30 PM   #14
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If you are in SD, I'm a bit closer than you may think.
If it comes down to it and you feel confortable, I can do your valve job for about half what a shop will. It takes about 24 hours. I will wait a few hours for your engine to cool but not all day. It is aluminum.. by the time I break it down and get the cover off it will be mostly cool. My garage has A/C.

I have shims.

You need to bring coolant (2 bottles of 50/50) and oil (2 quarts) and filter and spark plugs and oil o-ring and crush washer.

The best part is I actually give you real numbers from what I measure.

Only problem is we need somewhere for you to stay for 24 hours lol.
You could just sit there and watch if you'd like.
If you got here super early (4am?) we may have you out the door by nightfall?

Sort out your clutch issue and get back to me if needed.
Well, I have done an oil/filter/ring change recently. Is it possible to do one without that? Also, I assume I'd need to get spark plugs and a shim kit too?

I still may have the clutch and valves done closer by (I commute daily), but I'm seriously considering your offer. Thanks!
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Old July 20th, 2011, 07:57 PM   #15
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I have the shims. I have lots of them.
If I don't have your size I can make it really quick. I have proper tools for measuring shim thickness. Grinders, files, and shims of very close sizes to what I will need if I don't have it. I can even go a bit loose on your shims so you can go a bit longer between the next interval. It sounds noisy kinda though.

From what I am seeing, a lot of the time I can usually only get away with putting two or three or four shims in your bike. The rest can be flip flopped around to other valves.

If you just did an oil change, wait until it's time to change it again before you bring it by. I might be able to re-use your oil I suppose. Less work on me if I don't have to yank the filter? I think I do anyways because I have to turn the engine over and don't want it full of oil so scratch that.

If you want, I don't have to change your crush washer but if you get a oil leak don't ask me. I'll make sure I torque your oil bolt to 14.5lbs though so I don't strip it, you can be sure of that.

If you have spools on your bike it will help make things easier too.
I did adrians valves in 24 hours with his bike on the kickstand. We had a break for riding too or something.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:36 PM   #16
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Jet,

From what I've seen inside the clutch when I was hunting down some sounds ~18mos back, the DIY that Purspeed wrote for replacing the clutch plates on the pre-gens essentially applies to us too. The clutch construction is very close, sans some minor cosmetic differences, including some changes in the friction plates. Here's a few pics from my little adventure:
The middle pic has a friction plate on top, that outer brown ring that looks like it's got a darker dashed line going around it.
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File Type: jpg DSC04773.jpg (126.5 KB, 3 views)
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Old July 21st, 2011, 09:37 PM   #17
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I'm sure I'll have fried mine sooner or later.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 10:27 PM   #18
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I have the shims. I have lots of them.
If I don't have your size I can make it really quick. I have proper tools for measuring shim thickness. Grinders, files, and shims of very close sizes to what I will need if I don't have it. I can even go a bit loose on your shims so you can go a bit longer between the next interval. It sounds noisy kinda though.

From what I am seeing, a lot of the time I can usually only get away with putting two or three or four shims in your bike. The rest can be flip flopped around to other valves.

If you just did an oil change, wait until it's time to change it again before you bring it by. I might be able to re-use your oil I suppose. Less work on me if I don't have to yank the filter? I think I do anyways because I have to turn the engine over and don't want it full of oil so scratch that.

If you want, I don't have to change your crush washer but if you get a oil leak don't ask me. I'll make sure I torque your oil bolt to 14.5lbs though so I don't strip it, you can be sure of that.

If you have spools on your bike it will help make things easier too.
I did adrians valves in 24 hours with his bike on the kickstand. We had a break for riding too or something.
I've been tearing up my bike in the canyons and so far- amazing VALVE job by KC!!
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 01:45 AM   #19
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It looks like EBC is much cheaper for a set of cork-based plates at ~$40 compared to ~60 for Barnett's Kevlar plates. However, it's closer to $100 to order the Barnett friction plates with the steel plates while I *think* the EBC kit includes them (doesn't explicitly say but there is no part listed or offered). If it doesn't include the steel plates, can I mix with OEM or Barnett steel plates?

Edit: Nope. They aren't included. EBC dealer told me to reuse originals or order OEM or Barnett. LoneRonin told my that the steel plates may be all that need to be replaced, so this leaves me with more questions.

Last futzed with by CZroe; July 22nd, 2011 at 11:30 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 11:21 AM   #20
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I'm still hoping I can do the clutch service without doing an oil change, especially considering that my last one was less than 1K miles ago and I used expensive Rotella T6 full synthetic. I've been using that for almost 15K miles and I have to wonder if there's any merit to the "no full synthetic in a wet clutch!" warnings, though I thought it was safe because it has no friction modifiers. EBC specifically says not to use full synthetic with their cork-based friction rings.

Anyway, how much oil would likely need to be drained? Can I just lean it over a bit farther by working on a hill or putting the wheels on a 2x4 to get around that or am I likely to find more oil in there than that?

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Originally Posted by LoneRonin View Post
clutch is a quick fix under a 100 bucks. I've done it...
Your friction plates are likely good, but the steel plates in between are scorched.
You need no special tools...just get a service manual, pm me if you need a pdf version. Open up the engine case take a look at the plates then see what needs replacing from there...may as well replace everything though if you have higher miles, its not too expensive.

forgot to ask if you're experiencing clutch slippage?? where your rpms rise but you have no increase in speed, or you shift gears when at high rpms but it just sits there rather than dropping back down.
OK, I've been asking around a lot and I'm told the exact opposite about the plates. There are friction plate dealers who tell me that they rebuild a lot of clutches and never had to replace the steel plates. Did you replace just the plates to solve your issue or did you replace everything for the same reason?

If I can get by with just the friction plates then I could get out as cheaply as $40 (EBC cork plates). Now, why might the springs need replacement?

One dealer told me I'd need a new OEM gasket for the clutch cover. That's another $15-$20. Can I get by without it and just be mindful of a potential oil leak? It doesn't sound like anyone else is bothering.
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 11:59 AM   #21
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Anyway, how much oil would likely need to be drained? Can I just lean it over a bit farther by working on a hill or putting the wheels on a 2x4 to get around that or am I likely to find more oil in there than that?
Well, the oil sight glass is part of the clutch cover housing. If you can get it below visible in the sight glass I'd expect only a little spillage once you open the cover. Of course, that'll go straight onto your exhaust pipe...

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Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
If I can get by with just the friction plates then I could get out as cheaply as $40 (EBC cork plates). Now, why might the springs need replacement?
Almost all springs get weaker over time as they're used. The way I understand it by looking at the construction, if the springs are too weak, they won't fully expand the housing that allows the clutch plates (friction & steel) to disengage when you pull in the lever, so they will have light contact all the time, constantly wearing them out and while you may be able to shift gears, it'll likely be harder on the engine. The above paragraph is just from what I remember, it is NOT based on experience or professional training.

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Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
One dealer told me I'd need a new OEM gasket for the clutch cover. That's another $15-$20. Can I get by without it and just be mindful of a potential oil leak? It doesn't sound like anyone else is bothering.
Both times I've opened my clutch cover that cheap paper gasket tore, leaving me buying another one. If you're really lucky, talented or patient, you may be able to save it. Alternatively, you might try some liquid gasket instead; no 100% sure it'll work, but I haven't had any issues with it on other seals. I can pretty much guarantee an oil leak if there's no gasket of any kind; only question is how fast and whether the leakage will ignite on your exhaust pipe or just burn to blue smoke that stinks.
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 12:18 PM   #22
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Well, the oil sight glass is part of the clutch cover housing. If you can get it below visible in the sight glass I'd expect only a little spillage once you open the cover. Of course, that'll go straight onto your exhaust pipe...
Thanks for the info.

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Almost all springs get weaker over time as they're used. The way I understand it by looking at the construction, if the springs are too weak, they won't fully expand the housing that allows the clutch plates (friction & steel) to disengage when you pull in the lever, so they will have light contact all the time, constantly wearing them out and while you may be able to shift gears, it'll likely be harder on the engine. The above paragraph is just from what I remember, it is NOT based on experience or professional training.
Well, when I suspend the rear on a stand and shift from neutral to first while holding down the clutch lever, the wheel spins at full idle speed even when I was holding the clutch lever in the whole time, but that's normal, right? That said, the springs are only 3 years and 24,000 miles old. I'd like to replace as little as possible, especially if I'm going to need a gasket.

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Originally Posted by Momaru View Post
Both times I've opened my clutch cover that cheap paper gasket tore, leaving me buying another one. If you're really lucky, talented or patient, you may be able to save it. Alternatively, you might try some liquid gasket instead; no 100% sure it'll work, but I haven't had any issues with it on other seals. I can pretty much guarantee an oil leak if there's no gasket of any kind; only question is how fast and whether the leakage will ignite on your exhaust pipe or just burn to blue smoke that stinks.
Makes me wonder why gaskets aren't included with model-specific "full" clutch kits then. I had no idea it was paper and not rubber (is the engine just too hot for rubber?). Is liquid gasket something that's available at autoparts stores?
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 01:06 PM   #23
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Well, when I suspend the rear on a stand and shift from neutral to first while holding down the clutch lever, the wheel spins at full idle speed even when I was holding the clutch lever in the whole time, but that's normal, right? That said, the springs are only 3 years and 24,000 miles old. I'd like to replace as little as possible, especially if I'm going to need a gasket.
I'm not so sure about full idle speed with the clutch disengaged; some rotation I'd expect, but not fill tilt. Could you hold the clutch in (while in 1st on a stand) and gently try to stop the rear tire, either w/ a little application of the rear brake or a little direct friction on the tire? If the bike stalls or has to fight to stay running when you bring the rear tire to a stop (with the clutch pulled in while in first gear) I'd suspect springs (but again, I'm not a pro, just speculating).
Also, I don't *think* springs are too expensive, especially when you factor in having to replace some oil and probably the gasket again if you decide you do need new springs down the road, after replacing the friction plates (plus the addt'l wear on your new plates while you make the decision to get new springs). Maybe check for service manual recommendations?

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Makes me wonder why gaskets aren't included with model-specific "full" clutch kits then. I had no idea it was paper and not rubber (is the engine just too hot for rubber?). Is liquid gasket something that's available at autoparts stores?
Two words: cost cutting. I know the engine's not too hot for rubber; the gasket on the head cover that you have to pull every time for the valves is rubber, secured with a little liquid gasket and that's right above the combustion chamber, so it's getting the brunt of the heat. I suspect cost-cutting here as well, to reduce investment upfront on the assembly end, and passing it on to the customer in the form of more things to buy when servicing. A real tech might have a better answer for ya though, perhaps the paper seals better or somethin'.

You should be able to get a variety of liquid gasket makers at your local auto store. I'd definitely get the oil-resistant stuff, maybe go with high-temp black. I'd send you a pic or exact name of the stuff I use on the head cover gasket, but it's all packed up for my move tomorrow. The store clerk should be able to help ya.
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