December 22nd, 2011, 09:47 PM | #561 |
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The term "trickle down" is supposed to imply a negative, but the fact is, this is the way that businesses work. A business won't invest (more) profits in employees unless it can actually make that profit.
I'm referring to the standard definition of "trickle down" economics as it relates to individual taxes. Taxes were reduced on wealthy people and it didn't trickle down to anyone else. So what is wrong with the top 1%, who in most cases have taken risks and worked to build a business and in turn build wealth, what is wrong with them making more money? Do you knowingly make bad investments with your money? Nothing is wrong with making money. One of the greatest investors of all time, Warren Buffet, and a growing number of wealthy business people agree with me. They didn't ask for a Bush tax cut and they think they and people who earn as much money as they do should be paying more. Well, just because you say it doesn't make it true either. But the fact is, Obama wants to take more of my wealth in order to redistribute it to those who are somehow more worthy. Not more worthy, ALL progressive taxes work that way to a certain extent and most of the world works that way. Obama wants Bush tax cuts to expire on individual income that exceeds 1 million dollars. This was the platform he ran on in 2008. So if I work hard and long hours, take huge financial risks, I am "rewarded" by Obama wanting to punish me, by taking even more of my money. Obama has pointed his figure at individuals, calling their salaries "obscene", and even suggesting specific industry taxes on indviduals. Do you earn over 1 million dollars per year? If the answer is no, then Obama does not and will not raise your taxes. If the answer is yes, he would like your taxes to go back to the rate they were under Clinton. Thanks for your understanding. there are certainly anti-capitalism signs all over the place. Yes there are, and I don't agree with them. It would be a mistake to lump all of the OWS people together as people with identical political views. So make a statement about Goldman, or some other business you don't like? Sure. But go out there and trash public lands, steal taxpayer funds for your cleanup, put some small businesses out of business, and they get zero sympathy from me. Was Fox news complaining about these 'issues' when they were actively promoting tea party 'rallies'? Would you dismiss the Civil Rights movement because of issues such as the ones you raised? Would you rather limit freedom of speech? Be honest with yourself. That sounds like a talking point from a propaganda machine trying to marginalize a legitimate National movement. But that is just my opinion. |
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December 22nd, 2011, 09:59 PM | #562 |
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:04 PM | #563 | |
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Now will they, or you, blame the democratics in the house, senate, or whitehouse who passed HR 4853?? Or is it all just a tool to bash Bush and promote class warfare?? BTW Samer I typed out a response to your question, but in the time it took to do just that, I timed out and had to sign in again. Now its lost in cyberspace. Ill try again later and type it in a format that I can save. Sorry.
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:04 PM | #564 |
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:06 PM | #565 |
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Me, you, and many others
I guess john Dewey is offensive too. lol
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:11 PM | #566 | |
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"Democratic Majority" is fine. In the post that I criticized, he wrote in two separate places "democrat majority" and "democrat party". That is insulting and impolite. Easy to take a jab at political correctness. How about simple decency? I don't disrespect you so I would appreciate the same from you. |
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:19 PM | #567 |
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O.K. I was watching NFL network what did I miss?
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:24 PM | #568 |
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I'm referring to the standard definition of "trickle down" economics as it relates to individual taxes. Taxes were reduced on wealthy people and it didn't trickle down to anyone else.
I would disagree that tax reductions don't benefit anyone but the company owner. But if you look at things in recent years, then yes, it is not benefiting more people because people and businesses are holding on to cash because of the uncertainty. Nothing is wrong with making money. One of the greatest investors of all time, Warren Buffet, and a growing number of wealthy business people agree with me. They didn't ask for a Bush tax cut and they think they and people who earn as much money as they do should be paying more. More don't agree than agree. As for Buffet, it is interesting considering the manuevers he has taken to shelter his wealth from taxes. It's also interesting how he tries to spin the taxes he is paying as income tax, and compares them to someone making less. I've always said that if these Buffett types feel it's important for people like them to pay more, then they should. Voluntarily. He should stop sheltering his income, and stop taking deductions. Not more worthy, ALL progressive taxes work that way to a certain extent and most of the world works that way. Obama wants Bush tax cuts to expire on individual income that exceeds 1 million dollars. He also ran on, an wants to increase taxes on those who earn 200,000 or more. This is far less than 1 million. There are also some countries (including Russia) who are doing very well with a flat tax. I'd love to see us move in this direction. Do you earn over 1 million dollars per year? If the answer is no, then Obama does not and will not raise your taxes. If the answer is yes, he would like your taxes to go back to the rate they were under Clinton. Thanks for your understanding. Except, as I stated above, he campaigned on raising taxes on those making $200K, and this is still his goal. Yes there are, and I don't agree with them. It would be a mistake to lump all of the OWS people together as people with identical political views. Yes, and I don't mean to do that. But there is certainly a large group of protesters who are indeed protesting against capitalism. But as I said before, this is a protest without a clear and consistent message. Was Fox news complaining about these 'issues' when they were actively promoting tea party 'rallies'? Would you dismiss the Civil Rights movement because of issues such as the ones you raised? Would you rather limit freedom of speech? Be honest with yourself. That sounds like a talking point from a propaganda machine trying to marginalize a legitimate National movement. But that is just my opinion. Fox News? I never said anything about Fox News, nor do I care who or what you think they support. As for the Tea Party, I am unaware of these issues with them. I do know that they were forced to apply for and pay for permits as well as police duties. Limit Freedom of Speech? How did you get that out of my comments? I don't care what they speak about, and I certainly don't want to shut anyone's speech down. I just don't want to pay for it. As for "legitimate" National Movement, well, I guess that is your opinion, and it certainly differs from mine. |
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:38 PM | #569 |
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So the whole thing is a conspiracy? It becomes legitimate when tens (or hundreds) of thousands of Americans participate. You don't have to agree with them, but they are real people, and a significant number of people.
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:40 PM | #570 | |
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As for Democratic versus Democrat, I still don't see how one is insulting (or impolite) and the other is not. To say "Democrat Party" may not be the correct way to say it, but I don't see how it is insulting. But I do know a lot of Democrats (correct usage) feel that way. I think people just have too thin skins sometimes. |
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:42 PM | #571 |
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Conspiracy? No. But I guess it depends how you define legitimate. A protest without a consistent message, or a consistent purpose does not ring as legitimate to me.
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December 22nd, 2011, 10:51 PM | #572 | |
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Is this like a Goodbye like "I will see you tomorrow" or like a "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out" Goodbye? I think after enough time getting to know each other we could have had quite the colloquy. |
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December 22nd, 2011, 11:08 PM | #573 |
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December 23rd, 2011, 12:54 AM | #574 | |
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This was just one more false crisis to extract a compromise, threatening both the extension of the AMT fix and the withholding of unemployment benefits as of the start of the new year, unless their erstwhile colleagues caved on extending the Bush "temporary" tax cuts (and lowering the estate tax). Neither party had enough votes to overcome the threatened filibuster, so it was yet one more grandstanding gesture to harm the majority if the minority didn't get their way. You positing that it was now a bill developed and supported by the Democratic party is neither a surprise, nor does it ring true.
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December 23rd, 2011, 01:02 AM | #575 | ||
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Here's the settlement from Wells not so long ago that details both problems: Wells Fargo Fined $85 Million Over Subprime Lending Quote:
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December 23rd, 2011, 05:30 AM | #576 | |
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December 23rd, 2011, 07:02 AM | #577 | |
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I'm willing to bet you're like Joe the plumber. He was whining to Obama that his plumbing business was set to make around 200K that year. Which, by the way, would not have made his taxes go up under Obama's plan. It turned out that Joe the plumber wasn't really a plumber, did not earn anywhere near 200k, and had liens on his property for not paying taxes. I am talking about actual Bills that were proposed in Congress recently that were struck down by the extreme right wing. The 1 million bracket has been proposed in This Congress in the real world. That is what I am referring to. Last futzed with by Samer; December 23rd, 2011 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Corrected spelling of 'lien' |
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December 23rd, 2011, 11:15 AM | #578 | ||
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The question was a legitimate question to Obama. Whether or not he actually intended on buying such a business, or whether or not someone is in the highest tax bracket, it doesn't change the issue. |
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December 23rd, 2011, 05:47 PM | #579 |
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When u r a business, that is different than an individual. If the profit of the business is above 200k and u choose to pay it to yourself, then the plan would have raised taxes on the portion above 200k. On the other hand, Obama has proposed cutting taxes on small businesses that hire new workers.
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December 23rd, 2011, 07:06 PM | #580 | ||
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Its been posted on this site before and if you care to look you will find out what I do and how much I make.....But somehow I fail to see the relavance. I guess its a little hard for me to understand how obama wants to let the "Bush tax cuts to expire on individual income that exceeds 1 million dollars" when there has never been such a tax bracket. Please show me where I can find that information. (Good luck) Quote:
Or how about H.R. 156 (ih) To prevent Members of Congress from receiving any automatic pay adjustment in 2010. maybe this one.....H.R. 172 (ih) To provide for the construction of the Arkansas Valley Conduit in the State of Colorado. How about this Zinger.....H.R. 6564 (ih) To promote the oil independence of the United States, and for other purposes. Now would it suprise you that there were over 6500 "actual bills" proposed in the 111th congress in just 2 years?? Yep thats nearly 9 a day. and since congress doesnt work every day. (hell they arent even in session 200 days a year) theres a whopping 15-35 bills introduced every time congress is in session. This is why I dont talk about "proposed bills" 98% of them get no traction and are merely grandstanding for the constituents. Like yourself. Wake up samer. How about giving me the numbers so I can look this proposed bill up. its H.R. something if it was introduced in congress. Be advised they are at about 3000 now. Btw,,, extreme right wing is offensive to me. LOL
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December 23rd, 2011, 08:15 PM | #581 | |
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Well let me help ya out on this one Alex. I think you might be thinking of another bill or something. The bills sponsor was James Oberstar. (Yeah hes a democrat) Cosponsors were David Camp [R] Jerry Costello [D] Sander Levin [D] John Mica [R] Thomas Petri [R] there were 59 amendments and 45 of them were added by..........you guessed it Democrats Along with 3 from the socialist Bernie Sanders from VT It was such a great Idea that the republicans only added 11 amendments. Add to that the fact that it passed with a roll call vote in congress. It got Unanimous Consent in the senate. A vote in the house to agree with the senate changes passed by roll call vote. It was 234 yes (or ayes), 188 no (or nays) 12 Present. Then the senate passed it by roll call 81 Yes, 19 No. After they agreed with the house changes. Thats right 43 democrats voted for this bill in the senate and the final house vote was 277-148 with 139 democrats voting yes. Now I dont know about you. But 81 to 19 doesnt seem like it was under the threat of fillibuster. Besides at the time this vote was taken they did indeed have a filibuster proof majority of 58 seats plus the 2 independants plus Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe who were republicans in name only and voted with the democrats if you dont recall. Thats 62 votes and I have pointed all this out to you before. It went unchallenged then as it will go now because it is indeed a fact. Please tell me where Im wrong here. All of the above is a fact and a matter of public record. Is it that hard to accept the fact that the democrats voted for the Bush tax cuts? The same tax cuts that they now oppose?? Is it possible that I might be right when I say that they dont really want to raise taxes on the rich?? Its all just a soundbite, to promote class warfare and hopefully (for the democrats) get obama re-elected.
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December 23rd, 2011, 08:25 PM | #582 |
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I know there is no tax bracket for earnings beyond 1 million. Show me where I said there is one. I was talking about what Democrats are trying to do now. Many people, including myself, Warren Buffet, and many Democrats in Congress strongly support letting the Bush tax cuts expire on these earnings. In fact, you even seemed to indicate you support it!
So if this went to a vote By Itself with no toxic crap tied to it, it probably has a good chance of passing Despite the tea party House Republicans extreme pledge. |
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December 23rd, 2011, 08:29 PM | #583 | |
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But Ya did it again. there is no tax cut to expire on earnings over a million dollars. That bracket does not exist. It would have to be a vote to create a new tax bracket and tax the earnings of anyone that makes over a million at a certin percentage. If you make 375k to one million you pay X% and if you make a million and one dollar and up you pay Y% so thats 2 new tax brackets. It will never happen because neither party is interested in cutting their own throat. They love that cash they get in there campaign coffers from the millionaires........ Dont you get it yet? Besides we dont have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. Try focusing on that, instead of the class warfare deal. Point out the frivolus spending of speaker boner and the republicans and Ill happily join you in bashing it. Acknowledge the fact that the democrats are just as much to blame as the republicans for the spending mess, and we might just get somwhere. Cant you see we have common ground as citzens of this great nation. Both parties are guilty of spending us into oblivion. Lets stop the class warfare routine that has been burnt into your brain by NPR... it solves nothing. We as a country are now 15 trillion in the hole. Squeesing another 5 or 6 billion out of the rich (if thats even possible) wont help a darn thing until our elected leaders stop spending our money in the most asinine ways. Did you know that if you confiscated all the wealth from the people making over a million dollars we still couldnt pay off the debt. Your a math guy you know full well how much 15 trillion is. Think about it.
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December 24th, 2011, 07:17 AM | #584 |
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How many times do I have to say it? I am precisely talking about a new law that would specifically create a new bracket at 1 million. You say it is not going to happen. I hope it will. Time will tell. I know for a fact that many Democrats in Congress genuinely want that to happen. Don't assume everyone in Congress is a liar, on either side.
Now, you pride yourself for not being fooled by either party's rhetoric. At the same time you just quoted a tired Republican line: 'We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem'. Unfortunately, that is completely inaccurate. You whine about so many people who don't pay taxes. The truth is that if we cut spending down to almost zero, the economy would surely collapse. And any money we could conceivably collect from those low income people would be negligible. Most economists agree with me that there are two ways to reduce the debt. We grow our way out or we print a lot of money. Since I don't think we want hyper inflation, there is only one practical way. So the question is, how do we grow faster? You say, stop spending. I agree 100% about wasteful pork such as building airplanes that the Air Force didn't ask for and doesn't need b/c some Congress person wants to take credit for keeping some (unneeded) jobs paid for by you and me. Can we agree on that? But the general idea of spending less as the primary solution, I don't agree with. Look at the stimulus. Sure, the Republicans say it failed yet we are on a long streak of private sector job growth and the economy is growing. Compare to the 750,000 jobs lost per month that Obama inherited thanks mostly to the tax cutting and deregulating, let the private sector control everything Bush philosophy. |
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December 24th, 2011, 11:27 AM | #585 | |
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December 24th, 2011, 11:40 AM | #586 | ||||
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So if you were to get a pay cut at work, would you react by spending 84% more money? Quote:
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December 25th, 2011, 01:30 AM | #587 | ||||||
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Link 1: Quote:
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Here's my reference. So either post up yours, or admit that once again your "facts" have turned out to be, well, not an appropriate use of the term.
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December 25th, 2011, 01:48 AM | #588 | |
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The Brookings Institute has a page that formats receipts/outlays by year, in either constant dollars or current dollars; have at it. The TreasuryDirect site has a good app to determine the overall deficit at any point in time: link, which is another way to calculate yearly spending (including interest on the debt). Finally, the wiki page on the US government budget isn't half bad either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...federal_budget Last Bush budget submitted in in 2008 for 2009 was $3.1 trillion. Latest Obama budget submitted in 2011 for 2012 was $3.7 trillion. The latest deal has that down to $3.5 trillion. No matter how I divide those numbers every which way, nothing comes anywhere close to spending being up 84%. Where are you seeing that? Wait, found it. This is Rep. Ryan lying through his teeth with that 84% number. Check the data: It's easy to see he's full of it. Here's how he did the math.
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December 25th, 2011, 02:46 AM | #589 | ||||
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December 25th, 2011, 05:02 AM | #590 |
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December 25th, 2011, 11:45 AM | #591 |
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December 25th, 2011, 02:42 PM | #592 | |||
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The other thing I will point out is that you can't judge Obama's policies on spending by just looking at current spending. You have to look at how these policies will affect future spending. Not talking about future deficits, as this is completely depended on his policies improving the economy (which they have not yet) and revenue increasing. Quote:
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December 25th, 2011, 02:47 PM | #593 |
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The fictional "1 million dollar tax bracket" has been talked about as part of the Bush Tax Cut. This is how democrats in Congress as well as the Obama Administration like to spin it (as well as at least one poster in this thread). They proposed to let the Bush Tax Cuts expire on those making $1 million or more. But there is no Bush Tax Cut focused on those making this amount of money because the tax bracket does not exist. But this sounds a lot nicer than proposing a tax increase.
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December 25th, 2011, 04:35 PM | #594 | ||||
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(Hint: "Paul Ryan says U.S. discretionary spending increased 84 percent in the last two years" Politifact rating: Mostly False)
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December 25th, 2011, 04:44 PM | #595 | ||||
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It's all here. End of 2010: Quote:
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December 26th, 2011, 03:23 PM | #596 | |
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December 26th, 2011, 03:28 PM | #597 | |
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Quote:
I never said that a tax raise on those making any level of income could never happen. I just stated that it would have nothing to do with the Bush Tax Cuts. |
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December 26th, 2011, 03:58 PM | #598 | ||
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
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Quote:
How about this - I'll post the data right here, and you can point to the part that you believe represents an 84% increase that you agree with: Quote:
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December 26th, 2011, 10:11 PM | #599 | |
ninjette.org Monkey Spank
Name: Kevin
Location: Illinois
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Track-Bike Woodcraft clip-ons and rearsets FZ-6 track bike Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
The final senate voice vote was held on Dec 15th 2010 when the democrats had 58 seats. plus the 2 independants and the 2 RINO's So my facts do indeed get to be called facts. And none of the talk of filibuster really matters because the vote was 81-19. with 43 democrats in the senate and 139 in the house voting for the tax cuts. Post all the articles you can find. None of them explain away the voting record. Although they try really really hard.
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Black 250R Full Area P QC Dyno Jet Kit 100 main 41T Rear Sprocket |
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December 26th, 2011, 10:23 PM | #600 |
ninjette.org Monkey Spank
Name: Kevin
Location: Illinois
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Track-Bike Woodcraft clip-ons and rearsets FZ-6 track bike Posts: A lot.
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Alex, Your not really trying to say spending isnt higher are you?? Havent we had this debate before?? I can go get numbers from your credible source. (the place you have quoted numbers from) to prove it if you would like me too.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov Grab some numbers from here revstriker.
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Black 250R Full Area P QC Dyno Jet Kit 100 main 41T Rear Sprocket |
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