Electric Motorcycle

[Ram Jet]

http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/...through-racing

The day I get an electric motorcycle will be the day I put my helmet out for trash pick-up.

Bill

[Snake]

Battery technology has a long way to go to match the range and quick refueling capability of petro fuels.

[CaliGrrl]

Article link has changed. It's not about motorcycles, it's about the fire in Portugal.

My hubby has an electric motorcycle and he likes it a lot. He'll take that one any time we are on the roads here. Bigger trips he has to take the gas bike, but he prefers the electric.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by CaliGrrl

Article link has changed. It's not about motorcycles, it's about the fire in Portugal.

My hubby has an electric motorcycle and he likes it a lot. He'll take that one any time we are on the roads here. Bigger trips he has to take the gas bike, but he prefers the electric.

Sorry, here's the correct web address: http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/..._surges_racing

You husband might find this a good read.

Bill

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

Sorry, here's the correct web address: http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/..._surges_racing

You husband might find this a good read.

Bill

Correction:http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/..._surges_racing

Bill

[CaliGrrl]

"Most of the development will come from racing" rather than street models but that's nothing new. Cars and bikes have been doing that forever- racing develops all the new goodies and the street takes what seems useful.

We've got an electric car, and like the article says, all your torque is available through the whole speed range. No worrying about a power band- it's ALL power band.

[Snake]

Great article!

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by CaliGrrl

"Most of the development will come from racing" rather than street models but that's nothing new. Cars and bikes have been doing that forever- racing develops all the new goodies and the street takes what seems useful.

We've got an electric car, and like the article says, all your torque is available through the whole speed range. No worrying about a power band- it's ALL power band.

You are very correct. The little Ninjas we may take for granted today would probably have been front runners at any road race circuit in the world in the 70s and 80s.

Bill

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

You are very correct. The little Ninjas we may take for granted today would probably have been front runners at any road race circuit in the world in the 70s and 80s.Bill

I think you're being a little optimistic.

[MLR]

Yeah, Nah

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I think you're being a little optimistic.

Um . . . OK. Would you believe the best seat in the race?

Bill

[AchyGrappler]

Being an engineer, I get the performance capabilities of electric and find them tantalizing for race bikes. The idea that race tracks of all sizes could become popular again since the noise issue that is forcing so many tracks to close goes away.

My biggest issue is, at least for US based manufacturers, is the focus on "urban" commuters. As the most recent election showed, as well as any plane flight across this country, this country has waaaay more non-urban areas. The idea of a 80 mile range and a 6 to 8 hour charge time just doesn't work for me when I can leave my house and do 200 miles of twisty canyon carving in those same 6 hours on one tank of gas.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

Being an engineer, I get the performance capabilities of electric and find them tantalizing for race bikes. The idea that race tracks of all sizes could become popular again since the noise issue that is forcing so many tracks to close goes away.

My biggest issue is, at least for US based manufacturers, is the focus on "urban" commuters. As the most recent election showed, as well as any plane flight across this country, this country has waaaay more non-urban areas. The idea of a 80 mile range and a 6 to 8 hour charge time just doesn't work for me when I can leave my house and do 200 miles of twisty canyon carving in those same 6 hours on one tank of gas.

I agree with you Achy. A cross country trip is out of the question on an electric bike but it might be great for a person commuting to and from work. A person could live like George Jetson and when he gets home from work at night put the bike on a charger and the next day do it all again.

For myself, being a gearhead for the past 50 years, I would miss the visceral appeal of an internal combustion engine. Old habits die hard.

Bill

[VaFish]

I'd love to have an electric motorcycle for commuting.

I just can't afford one.

My commute, on the shortest route is about 27 miles one way (of crappy stop and go traffic). On the route with the least traffic it's about 42 miles (at speeds of 55-70 mph). There are electric vehicle quick charging stations near my office. So a 50 mile range and 4-6 hrs charging time are not a deal breaker for me.

A base model Zero S 6.5 is about $11K, plus $600 for the Quick Charger, so almost $12K before taxes and tags, now there still are some federal tax incentives but out the door will still be well over $10K. That would give me a 49 mile range at highway speeds or just barely enough to do my long traffic reduced commute. It would be a great commuter bike, but I still would need a gas powered bike for the longer rides.

A Top of the range SR with the power tank to give me a 100 mile range at highway speeds is almost $20K. That's on a bike that has the performance of about a 500cc gas bike. I could get a very nice touring bike for almost that price (dealer nearby has 2016 Goldwings for $21k).

I put about 12,000 miles a year on my bike, that's a little over $600 worth of gas. If I could get electricity for free it would take me almost 17 years of use to pay for the electric bike, and I still would need a gas bike for longer rides.

If they can get an electric bike with 500cc gas bike performance, 50 mile range at highway speeds of up to 70 mph, with quick charge capabilities and a cost of under $5,000 I'll buy one.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by VaFish

I'd love to have an electric motorcycle for commuting.

I just can't afford one.

My commute, on the shortest route is about 27 miles one way (of crappy stop and go traffic). On the route with the least traffic it's about 42 miles (at speeds of 55-70 mph). There are electric vehicle quick charging stations near my office. So a 50 mile range and 4-6 hrs charging time are not a deal breaker for me.

A base model Zero S 6.5 is about $11K, plus $600 for the Quick Charger, so almost $12K before taxes and tags, now there still are some federal tax incentives but out the door will still be well over $10K. That would give me a 49 mile range at highway speeds or just barely enough to do my long traffic reduced commute. It would be a great commuter bike, but I still would need a gas powered bike for the longer rides.

A Top of the range SR with the power tank to give me a 100 mile range at highway speeds is almost $20K. That's on a bike that has the performance of about a 500cc gas bike. I could get a very nice touring bike for almost that price (dealer nearby has 2016 Goldwings for $21k).

I put about 12,000 miles a year on my bike, that's a little over $600 worth of gas. If I could get electricity for free it would take me almost 17 years of use to pay for the electric bike, and I still would need a gas bike for longer rides.

If they can get an electric bike with 500cc gas bike performance, 50 mile range at highway speeds of up to 70 mph, with quick charge capabilities and a cost of under $5,000 I'll buy one.

500cbr new is just under $7000 plus 3 oil changes and gas $675 per year

Your $12,000 Zero S would break even point is about 9 years(faster as gas prices go up). Add the quiet ride and subtract the buzzy feet and hands. For me that is worth it.

I have a gas bike already, but I ride to commute 99% of the time.

[CaliGrrl]

That's a good excuse to have more than one bike! Use the electric for commuting, top off the charge a little bit while you're at work if there's a charger anywhere nearby, and keep the gas bike for the longer trips.

It's unfortunate that the electrics are still expensive. With the electric car and electric bike, our electric bill went up about $25 a month. No big deal at all, especially with not paying for gas.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by allanoue

500cbr new is just under $7000 plus 3 oil changes and gas $675 per year

Your $12,000 Zero S would break even point is about 9 years(faster as gas prices go up). Add the quiet ride and subtract the buzzy feet and hands. For me that is worth it.

I have a gas bike already, but I ride to commute 99% of the time.

You don't HAVE to buy a new motorcycle. I have owned eight different bikes in over 50 years of riding and only one was a new one - my Kaw 500 triple. I just paid $1,500.00 for my little 250 crotch rocket. At a claimed 70 M.P.G. my payback is gonna come quickly. I paid $550.00 for my 82' Honda Ascot 500 single eight years ago and it's paid for itself several times over. Better than banging around in my 4k lb. 3,800cc van that on a good day gets 20 M.P.G.

I suppose you think new bike if you're not that comfortable doing your own repairs. Fortunately, I have never had one of my bikes at a dealer for repairs. An electric motorcycle would be a very difficult sale to me.

Bill

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

You don't HAVE to buy a new motorcycle. I have owned eight different bikes in over 50 years of riding and only one was a new one - my Kaw 500 triple. I just paid $1,500.00 for my little 250 crotch rocket. At a claimed 70 M.P.G. my payback is gonna come quickly. I paid $550.00 for my 82' Honda Ascot 500 single eight years ago and it's paid for itself several times over. Better than banging around in my 4k lb. 3,800cc van that on a good day gets 20 M.P.G.

I suppose you think new bike if you're not that comfortable doing your own repairs. Fortunately, I have never had one of my bikes at a dealer for repairs. An electric motorcycle would be a very difficult sale to me.

Bill

I have owned 3 bikes, only my 300 I got new and it has 3 times the mileages of the others. You suppose wrong.

I do not think the Electric bike market is mature enough for junkyard dogs like you but it is coming.

[AchyGrappler]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I do not think the Electric bike market is mature enough for junkyard dogs like you but it is coming.

I would have to disagree. From my studies at engineering school, electric vehicles are still faced with basic physics. It will always be easier to discharge a battery than to recharge it. Even with the advances in battery technology we have seen in the last few years, I don't believe we will get to a state of technology where we can ride our electric bikes into a charge station and top off the batteries in the same amount of time as filling up the gas bikes tank. Until that day occurs electrics will always be less than main stream especially when you think of my first point where the commuting public is a smaller audience than I believe the manufacturers are assuming.

For electric motorcycles to be mainstream several cultural shifts must occur:

1) riders will have to change the meaning of going for a ride. Planning for longer charge stops or stops where charge stations are available.
2) especially in the US, bikes will have to be though of as main transportation devices rather than toys.
3) the cost will have to be comparable to gas bikes. My 2004 ninja 250 and 2004 FZ1 together will cost less and payback sooner than a current zero bike. Neither are junkyard bikes requiring lots of work and a nine year payback time for an electric to me is rediculous.

[Chocula]

First of all, electric motorcycles are not for everyone. It is ok to like what you like. No need to point out that the HD Ultraglide is a lot of work on hill climbs or the Grom is horrible to tour on, these things are obvious.

Electric bikes are still a new technology and therefore have a premium price tag. They are currently low volume and target the most profitable demographic with the lowest infrastructure costs, i.e. urban commuter. There is no one perfect bike that meets everyone's desires all of the time, electric or gas.

Some of the arguments presented in this tread are a bit dated, for example what current 500cc bike matches the performance of a current Zero SR?
Peak torque 116 ft-lb (157 Nm)
Peak power 70 hp (52 kW) @ 3,500 rpm
That is a lot of torque for 500cc.

Not all electric bikes take a full 8 hours to charge, for example the Energica Ego and Eva have options for "20 kW DC FAST CHARGE Recharge in 30 min (0-85% SOC) MODE 4 DC FAST CHARGE". Even the Zero's have additional options to reduce your charging time or even swap the batteries on the FX or FXS models. Some of my favorite routes currently allow me to top off my charge while I have lunch. It doesn't need to be as fast as filling with gas as long as I don't have to sit there holding the nozzle, in fact plugging in and then unplugging takes less of my time than filling with gas would.

Electrics still require some maintenance, but nothing like their internal combustion engine counterparts. I am sooooo, not looking forward do doing the 48,000 mile service on my Triumph.

Used electric bikes are available, and like all new tech, often at substantial discounts.

If your passion is touring, an electric is probably not the best choice at this time, however from http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...terry-hershner

The Iron Butt Association now has its first electric member, Terry Hershner.
You may recognize Terry from his several cross-country attempts on his electric motorcycle. Now he has pushed the limits even farther, traveling 1,000 miles in less than 24 hours on his modified 2012 Zero S.

That was done in 2014 on a bike that is archaic compared to the current bikes produced by Zero.

I own an 2016 Empulse TT, I have owned a 2014 Empulse R.
I have ridden the 2014 Zero S, 2016 Zero FXS, 2017 Zero DSR, and the 2017 Alta Redshift SM.
Like every bike, each has its strengths and weaknesses.

It is hard to overstate the value of having a full battery every time my electric leaves the garage.

I think it is impossible to truly appreciate any bike until you have ridden one, and even more so to experience the way electrics deliver power. The Alta Redshift SM is a phenomenal experience to ride, especially when contrasted against the DRZ400SM I was riding the rest of that day. By the time you buy a new SM, make a few performance modifications, pay for a few years of maintenance, the price difference doesn't seem so great anymore; but like everything, it has its limitations.

If you get an opportunity to test ride an Electric bike, DO IT!!! Then you can make a better informed decision about which bike is best for you.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I have owned 3 bikes, only my 300 I got new and it has 3 times the mileages of the others. You suppose wrong.

I do not think the Electric bike market is mature enough for junkyard dogs like you but it is coming.

Junkyard dogs don't perform maintenance like this:




They build "Rat Bikes".

Bill

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

I would have to disagree. From my studies at engineering school, electric vehicles are still faced with basic physics. It will always be easier to discharge a battery than to recharge it. Even with the advances in battery technology we have seen in the last few years, I don't believe we will get to a state of technology where we can ride our electric bikes into a charge station and top off the batteries in the same amount of time as filling up the gas bikes tank. Until that day occurs electrics will always be less than main stream especially when you think of my first point where the commuting public is a smaller audience than I believe the manufacturers are assuming.

For electric motorcycles to be mainstream several cultural shifts must occur:

1) riders will have to change the meaning of going for a ride. Planning for longer charge stops or stops where charge stations are available.
2) especially in the US, bikes will have to be though of as main transportation devices rather than toys.
3) the cost will have to be comparable to gas bikes. My 2004 ninja 250 and 2004 FZ1 together will cost less and payback sooner than a current zero bike. Neither are junkyard bikes requiring lots of work and a nine year payback time for an electric to me is rediculous.

The Tesla Roadster replacement battery costs $10,000.00. Now a motorcycle battery might be a-lot less expensive but it's a big factor on a $20,000.00 electric bike.

Bill

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by allanoue

500cbr new is just under $7000 plus 3 oil changes and gas $675 per year

Your $12,000 Zero S would break even point is about 9 years(faster as gas prices go up). Add the quiet ride and subtract the buzzy feet and hands. For me that is worth it.

I have a gas bike already, but I ride to commute 99% of the time.

True,

But my 1997 Harley Sportster is paid for.

And I can get a brand new, left over 2015 model CBR 500 for $4300.

https://www.cycletrader.com/dealers/...500R-121316638

Right now, today I don't see enough financial incentive to get an electric bike. But, the numbers are getting closer all the time and If I'm still working in 5 years I think the electric bikes will be at a price point that makes them competitive as a commuter bike for me.

RamJet says the day he gets an electric bike is the day he will hang up his helmet, I however look forward to a day when there is an affordable electric bike with decent range and relatively quick recharging. I wouldn't mind having the electric bike as a daily commuter slash grocery getter, and a GoldWing for the long rides.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by Chocula

.....
Electric bikes are still a new technology and therefore have a premium price tag. They are currently low volume and target the most profitable demographic with the lowest infrastructure costs, i.e. urban commuter. There is no one perfect bike that meets everyone's desires all of the time, electric or gas.

.......

I can't wait for electric bikes to become more main stream. And I hope they follow other technology such as computers and HD Television with price drops and performance increases.

In 1988 I got married and we bought a home computer, spent about $2,000 on it. That would be about $4,300 in todays dollars. Look what a home computer costs now. Compare the performance of a 286 with a 20 MB hard drive and 640K of RAM to today's computers.

The good news is that major motorcycle manufactures are getting on board. Honda has announced an electric scooter, Harley has show video of their electric bike (which has a very cool engine noise). More competition means more research, better bikes and lower prices.

[DannoXYZ]

Hopefully with more battery factories coming online (like Teslas's), it will drop the costs of these things. And economies of scale with larger production runs.

Infrastructure is an issue. You can pull up to any parking-meter in Europe and plug in. Here, you gotta plan your trips with charging-stations in mind. Some kind of standardized battery-exchange system would be really cool. Pull up to service-station, pop out battery, insert charged one and off you go!

[allanoue]

The promotional campaign also includes a network of charging stations where depleted batteries can be swapped for fresh ones. The stations will maintain an inventory of fully-charged batteries and re-charge used ones for the next cycle

from
https://rideapart.com/articles/yamah...es-coming-soon

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by allanoue

The promotional campaign also includes a network of charging stations where depleted batteries can be swapped for fresh ones. The stations will maintain an inventory of fully-charged batteries and re-charge used ones for the next cycle

from
https://rideapart.com/articles/yamah...es-coming-soon

I read that Volvo will sell nothing but electric cars within two years. This I gotta see.

Bill

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

I read that Volvo will sell nothing but electric cars within two years. This I gotta see.

Bill

Volvo said starting in 2019 they will make only hybrid and electric.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/b...ctric-car.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeres.../#14562feb2c34

Based on an animation released by the automaker, Volvo’s baseline setup from 2019 will be a 48V mild-hybrid that will utilize a belted starter-generator configuration. Along with a likely lithium ion battery with a capacity in the 0.5 kWh range, this should boost fuel efficiency by about 10%-15%.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Volvo said starting in 2019 they will make only hybrid and electric.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/b...ctric-car.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeres.../#14562feb2c34

Based on an animation released by the automaker, Volvo’s baseline setup from 2019 will be a 48V mild-hybrid that will utilize a belted starter-generator configuration. Along with a likely lithium ion battery with a capacity in the 0.5 kWh range, this should boost fuel efficiency by about 10%-15%.

Thanks. That's a-lot more than Fox News told me.

Bill

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

Thanks. That's a-lot more than Fox News told me.

Bill

[spent_too_much]

Don't forget that with electric, there are fewer system components:

no cooling system
no ignition system
no fuel system
no oil to change
no transmission
no exhaust

Added bonus:
the "fuel tank" is locked storage

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by AchyGrappler

I would have to disagree. From my studies at engineering school, electric vehicles are still faced with basic physics. It will always be easier to discharge a battery than to recharge it.

I went to engineering school too (electrical and computer), and electric vehicles are the way of the future. Batteries are getting better daily, and they already don't take longer to charge than discharge: https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...tomobiles.html

The only real advantage internal combustion has now is cost, and that won't last forever.

[adouglas]

To me the tipping point is infrastructure. That's what will drive demand, even if we crack the battery problem.

The reality today:
The garage at work can hold hundreds of cars -- maybe more than 1,000.

There is one space with a charge point. That's ridiculous.

At my last office park, one of the buildings was entirely occupied by GE. They had a bank of eight charge points in the garage... for use ONLY by GE employees, and I never once saw a car plugged in. Stupid... zero incentive for anyone else to use an electric car.

When I see enough charge points that it's not crazy-inconvenient to top up when I need to, I'll consider all-electric. Until then, any vehicle I buy that has an electric motor in it will also have to have a gas engine.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

I went to engineering school too (electrical and computer), and electric vehicles are the way of the future. Batteries are getting better daily, and they already don't take longer to charge than discharge: https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...tomobiles.html

The only real advantage internal combustion has now is cost, and that won't last forever.

Electricity is produced by fossil fuel - 60%, nuclear - 20% and renewable resources - 15%.

Just put my dinosaur poop in my tank please. Oh, and please pass me the No Doze at the electric motorcycle GP.

Bill

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

Electricity is produced by fossil fuel - 60%, nuclear - 20% and renewable resources - 15%.

Just put my dinosaur poop in my tank please. Oh, and please pass me the No Doze at the electric motorcycle GP.

Bill

Not for long. Despite Trump's flailing, solar and other renewables are the future. Even fusion plants are on the horizon. Fossil fuels are on the way out, the only thing slowing it down is the stranglehold that oil corporations have on governments.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

Not for long. Despite Trump's flailing, solar and other renewables are the future. Even fusion plants are on the horizon. Fossil fuels are on the way out, the only thing slowing it down is the stranglehold that oil corporations have on governments.

Enjoy the future George.


I'm 69 and I won't be there with you to share your scientific delirium madness. Perhaps Obama could join you.

Bill

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

Not for long. Despite Trump's flailing, solar and other renewables are the future. Even fusion plants are on the horizon. Fossil fuels are on the way out, the only thing slowing it down is the stranglehold that oil corporations have on governments.

Might be a while. The ruling families make a huge amount of money from oil. They're not gonna let that go until they can make as much or more from the alternatives.

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

Might be a while. The ruling families make a huge amount of money from oil. They're not gonna let that go until they can make as much or more from the alternatives.

That is quite true, it will happen eventually though, probably when fusion becomes viable. When the first production fusion plants come online, fossil fuel will be obsolete in a heartbeat. People who think it's not coming have their head in the sand.

[AchyGrappler]

Originally Posted by spent_too_much

Don't forget that with electric, there are fewer system components:

no cooling system
no ignition system
no fuel system
no oil to change
no transmission
no exhaust

Added bonus:
the "fuel tank" is locked storage

Um no. All electric bikes have some form of cooling as there is resistance in the system. Even if it is a fan on the motor controller. Some high performance electrics even have water or oil cooling systems equal to a gas bike. No ignition, it is all an ignition system. An electrics motor controller is waaaay more complicated than the ignition system on a typical fuel injected bike's system. No fuel system, but a crap ton of weight in batteries. Some bikes have gear boxes, some direct drive, all have a final drive either chain or belt. All motorcycles have emissions even if there aren't being put out on the bike. Power comes from a power plant. Tires are still made of petroleum products.


I can work on my gas bike. Specialists have to work on electrics for fear of letting the magic smoke out or electrocuting yourself with enough amps to weld 1/2" steel plate. Electric bikes aren't miracle machines they just have different engineering compromises. I'd love to see an electric GP equal to a gas GP. 23 laps at Laguna seca at the same speed as a gas GP bike. Electrics are not there yet and I won't compromise to allow less than that. To ask me as a consumer to compromise is asking for bankruptcy.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

That is quite true, it will happen eventually though, probably when fusion becomes viable. When the first production fusion plants come online, fossil fuel will be obsolete in a heartbeat. People who think it's not coming have their head in the sand.

All of my teasing aside it's young folks like yourself with a futuristic paint brush that will shape the world to come. It's as it should be. Gone is the steam locomotive and bi-plane. But it's tough when you grow up with the smell of alcohol burning dirt track race cars and the lovely smell of burnt castor oil in the air. It's tough when you sat on the ground at a Can Am auto race at Watkins Glen and felt a field of big block Chevys literally make the ground shake when they rounded the chicane on the start lap. It's tough to remember "Thunder Boat" unlimited hydroplanes with their 12 cylinder Alison and Roll Royce Griffons tearing-up the water tossing 50" rooster tails into the air. Gordon Jennings, an automotive journalist and bike road racer commented after his first ride on a Kaw 500 triple "Gawd, I had to beat down the goose bumps with a hammer." I'm not sure the whine of an electric motor will have the same effect. I think I will miss the visceral appeal of the internal combustion engine. Go get em' young buck!

Cheers,

Bill