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Old December 15th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #1
cjhickey12
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Name: Chris
Location: Louisville KY
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New Rider already wanting more

Hello guys,

Been lurking for about a month figured I would share my story.

3 years ago I got an ugly 86 yamaha 650 with miles of problems. I learned how to ride (lightly) on it around my neighborhood and sold it after a month or 2.

Fast forward 2 weeks ago I bought my first "real" bike a 2002 Kawasaki 250R in need of new fairings with only 6k miles on it. I quickly got my motorcycle permit and have been riding for the last 2 weeks.

From my experience hopping back on was like riding a bike and I was doing fine in the neighborhood almost immediately. I was having anxiety at first on taking it on main roads 45mph+ at first but soon, probably after my 3rd time in traffic I am completely comfortable. I haven't gone on the interstate yet due to not feeling 100% ready along with bad crosswinds lately.

Anyway bottom line, I am comfortable on this bike, I respect it, and I'm not a reckless person. I am also a relatively big guy 6 foot 240 pounds. Would you recommend a liter bike in the spring? or should i stick to a 600?

Anyways hope everyone is riding safe and enjoying themselves
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Old December 15th, 2014, 11:26 PM   #2
Sirref
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Generally speaking the consensus on this forum is to stick with the 250 as long as possible as you don't realize how much it has to teach you about riding, specifically cornering and holding momentum, down the line. Learning how to ride a slow bike fast teaches you the techniques you need to ride a fast bike fast too except with less risk involved due to the lower speeds.

I feel as though there is a bike for every rider. Too many riders get lured into the 600ss/1000sb "trap" where they get a bike that's good at going fast but not much else, in comparison to other bikes, and going fast isn't necessarily what you want to be doing on public roads. I see supersports and superbikes primarily as track bikes which is what they were designed to be used as. Also supersports are expensive as hell, ridiculously so. Insurance on one for me would be double what I pay for my truck and 300 combined.

If you feel that the 250 just isn't enough power look into the sv650s. It's a fantastic all around bike that does everything right and provides easily controllable linear power, though significantly more of it than a 250. There are also a large number of mods you can do to them to make them suit the type of riding that you want to do. This is a bike that you really can't go wrong with.

I can also recommend a dirt bike, I've been looking into dirt bikes myself as they're endless fun without needing to push on public roads or go to an expensive track day. Plus they can be had relatively cheap in the first place. Dual sports follow the same vein since a drz400sm can rip it up on the street and in the dirt, ridiculously fun bike.

There's always the option to keep the 250 and invest in your skills at the track, I believe mid-Ohio is the closest track to you and they have a fantastic program for their novice group.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 05:59 AM   #3
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Standard spiel: On the 250, the party starts at 10,000 rpm. Keep the bike wound up and it's more fun than you might think. Many new riders who want to jump up to a supersport right away just aren't riding the bike hard enough for it to come alive. This is also true of those who believe they need to move from a 600 up to a literbike to have fun. You can have tons of fun on the smallest machines.

I mean, with the 250 you've got a vehicle capable of going 100 mph bone stock. In the 60s, you pretty much had to have the biggest, scariest machine you could find to do that, and only those with attachments the size of cantaloupes dared to try. That's what doing "the ton" meant: going 100 mph. On awful tires. With lousy brakes. And crappy suspension fitted to a poorly sorted chassis.

So let's set the whole performance thing aside for the moment. Whether the 250 has "enough" performance is moot. The real question is, does it have enough for YOU to have fun?

So that's the standard bit. Your money, go buy what floats your boat, but you don't "need" anything bigger, yada yada. However... you're a big guy. A really big guy. The Ninjette is a small bike that fits small people well. So is a bigger bike better suited to you? Probably.

When moving up, most focus on the size of the engine. 600... 1000... your original post suggests you're doing exactly that. IMHO that's misguided. On the street, it's not about power alone. It's how that power gets delivered that counts.

What you FEEL is torque, not horsepower.

Go find dyno charts for a typical 600 supersport and a Suzuki SV650. You'll find that the SV makes MORE torque and MORE power than the 600 at real-world RPM, say below 7000. The supersport keeps climbing at higher revs, however, while the SV runs out of steam.

So what does this mean? The "gentleman's bike" SV will be more entertaining in the real world, on the street, where you're not riding around with the throttle pinned all the time. It's often said that supersports are better suited to the track, and one reason why is because they deliver all their performance up high in the rev range. The 600 will walk away from the SV on the track.

I second Ben's suggestion of the SV. The newer version of that bike (the Gladius) has the same V-twin engine but lost all its soul. The SV650S is half-faired; the SV650SF has full bodywork.

Depending on your budget, some other bikes to consider:

Either of the Triumph triples, Speed or Street (triples sound like sex IMHO). Naked bikes, very upright, fairly tall (which would be good for you).
Ninja 650 (to me it doesn't have that much character, but it's a perfectly good everyday bike).
The new Yamaha FZ-09 or FZ-07, which are fantastic bargains. Similar to the Triumphs in ergonomics. These bikes are winners... expect good aftermarket support.
The new midsized Hondas (the 500 and 650). Similar in spirit to the Ninjette... fully faired "sporty" bikes that aren't real sportbikes.

If you really do want a supersport, be aware that they are designed around a very aggressive riding position... leaned way forward, laying on the tank, legs folded up. Basically you ride a supersport like a jockey rides a race horse. Watch people riding these... noobs and squids ride around with elbows locked, trying to sit up. Lots of weight on their hands. It's painful. I happen to like supersport ergos a lot and have no trouble with comfort on my GSXR, but many prefer something a bit more civilized. This is a concern for you because of your size.

Last note: Check the cost of insurance. The Ninjette is stupid-cheap to insure. My GSXR has three times the displacement, five times the performance and costs seven times as much to insure.

Welcome to the sport... be smart, ride safe!
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Old December 16th, 2014, 07:17 AM   #4
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I'm a bigger guy and I can tell you that if you are already wanting more you simply aren't riding it like you should. Ring its neck. Shift closer to red-line. Ride above 9K RPM. It can take it.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 07:41 AM   #5
accumack
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One more suggestion take the MSF course if you haven't. It may save your life and helps prevent developing bad habits. I've been riding since the early 1970s and have had many bikes of different sizes and types and I am having the most fun ever on my 300. It really comes alive above 10k. The 250 is similar.when I first got my 300 I weighed 223 and it can handle it no problem. The jump from a 250 to a liter bike is huge. I ride with a lot of 600 and 1000 bikes and stay with them or gain on them in the turns. Just this sunday I had someone on a liter bike ask me if my Ninja 300 was a thousand I told him 300 and his jaw dropped.
The smaller bike has taught me how to ride better and more efficient. In closing get what you're happy with and ride safe just don't do it too soon.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:20 AM   #6
csmith12
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Welcome again Chris!

You're in luck! There is a great group of a riders in your local area. The LBS are a great group of riders that do all kinds of stuff. They even come up my way every now and then each season. Head to a bike night and have a chat with a few of the 250 racers. Should be an interesting conversation.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #7
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Sounds like you are no where near what the bike offers. Its only been 2 weeks for you. wait till it gets warmer and go hit some mountain roads. then come back and let us know how it was. if you are only interested in riding in a straight line, then i guess go with more displacement.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Standard spiel: On the 250, the party starts at 10,000 rpm. Keep the bike wound up and it's more fun than you might think. Many new riders who want to jump up to a supersport right away just aren't riding the bike hard enough for it to come alive. This is also true of those who believe they need to move from a 600 up to a literbike to have fun. You can have tons of fun on the smallest machines.
Man, you couldn't be more right. Honestly, if you wind the 250/300 at the 11k-12 mark and are going around town driving it like you stole it, it gets scary... fast.

To OP: I get it, you want to upgrade to a bigger bike, that's fine. People here are just trying to caution you about the risks. Some people upgrade from 250 to a liter bike after a month and handle it just fine, others start on a liter bike and are fine... I would say 95% of the time when people hop onto a liter bike as their first bike or upgrade only after a month will end up getting hurt. But some can handle it.. Anyway, I would say the 600 would be enough for you. But it all comes down to what you want.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:49 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by cjhickey12 View Post
Hello guys,

Been lurking for about a month figured I would share my story.

3 years ago I got an ugly 86 yamaha 650 with miles of problems. I learned how to ride (lightly) on it around my neighborhood and sold it after a month or 2.

Fast forward 2 weeks ago I bought my first "real" bike a 2002 Kawasaki 250R in need of new fairings with only 6k miles on it. I quickly got my motorcycle permit and have been riding for the last 2 weeks.

From my experience hopping back on was like riding a bike and I was doing fine in the neighborhood almost immediately. I was having anxiety at first on taking it on main roads 45mph+ at first but soon, probably after my 3rd time in traffic I am completely comfortable. I haven't gone on the interstate yet due to not feeling 100% ready along with bad crosswinds lately.

Anyway bottom line, I am comfortable on this bike, I respect it, and I'm not a reckless person. I am also a relatively big guy 6 foot 240 pounds. Would you recommend a liter bike in the spring? or should i stick to a 600?

Anyways hope everyone is riding safe and enjoying themselves
If you are not reckless there is no point in getting a SS 6 or 1k

on more serious note, if you are not happy with the bike the odds are you will never be happy with the bike no matter how hard you try, the heart wants what it wants
I would suggest looking at the non SS 600 bikes, ninja650 ect...
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:14 AM   #10
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on more serious note, if you are not happy with the bike the odds are you will never be happy with the bike no matter how hard you try, the heart wants what it wants
+1

Sometimes it doesn't matter how much time you spend trying to "learn" a machine if it doesn't have that sex appeal you so desire, then you'll always feel like you want more.

I love my 300, but I definitely noticed it doesn't have "character" like my 2012 ninja 250 had. Hard to explain.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:18 AM   #11
adouglas
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Here's the reality of riding a supersport from a veteran (28 years) rider whose last bike was a 250 and who now rides a 750 supersport.
  • - On the highway, if you want to be in front of the guy ahead of you, you say "beam me up, Scotty" and it happens. Like, NOW.
  • - You can break the speed limit and get yourself in a lot of trouble REALLY REALLY easily. Really.
  • - Riding at walking pace (e.g. parking lot maneuvers) is harder.
  • - It CAN kill you faster than you can blink, but it won't TRY to do so. You have to ride like an a$$hat for that to happen. A bike like this rewards experience, self-awareness, maturity and self-control.
  • - The suspension and handling are wonderful.
  • - If tucking and hugging the bike aren't your cup of tea, the riding position gets old. Fast.
  • - Costs are much higher. You need premium fuel and it burns a lot more than the Ninjette. You wear out tires much faster and they cost a lot more. Insurance is many times higher.
  • - The Ninjette was more fun to operate. My current bike makes so much power and torque I can literally ride around all day in second or third gear. At my first track day I rode the WHOLE LAP in second gear, except for the straight.
  • - My Ninjette had tons of soul and character, especially after I modded it (jet kit, AreaP exhaust, clip ons, rearsets). The GSXR isn't like that. I do love it... but I had a closer bond with the Ninjette.

My first bike was an air-cooled Suzuki 650. Second bike was a Kawasaki EX500 (aka Ninja 500). Third bike was a Ninjette. Of those three, the Ninjette was the most fun. Hands-down.

The old cliche is true... it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:25 AM   #12
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what is the bike to you? is it a tool or is it a piece of art? if its a tool, why would you try to use a chainsaw while clipping coupons? use an appropriate tool for the job. track bike? sure go get a bmw 1000rr. street bike? 250 makes a fantastic street bike. hell its a pretty good track bike too. is the bike a piece of art to be looked at by you and to be seen by women? go get a zx14 or that h2r. like, yesterday.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:34 AM   #13
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My 2¢ on this subject;

I have had big bore and small bore sports bikes, if your into the twisty scene, and the small bore is set up properly, and the rider has skill, the big bores don't stand a chance.

If all you want to do is set land speed records, and be lazy about developing skills, then get a big bore.

When I had my big bore, and we went on group rides, those guys on the small bores we're walking all over the big bores, like gnats, and winning. The only advantage I had was the straights.

Just remember it all comes down the physics, and that's one thing, no matter how you try to argue with, you can't beat.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:21 AM   #14
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These always get interesting.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:37 AM   #15
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These always get interesting.
Just waiting for the OP to return....
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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:41 AM   #16
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Teri wins "Best New Avatar."
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Old December 16th, 2014, 12:21 PM   #17
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Old December 16th, 2014, 12:42 PM   #18
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It's painful. I happen to like supersport ergos a lot and have no trouble with comfort on my GSXR, but many prefer something a bit more civilized. This is a concern for you because of your size.
I am the same way, when I left my ninja 650 to the ZX6R I was immediately more comfortable. I feel connected to this bike. Would love to get a 300 in the future for fun around town. After I build a garage I guess
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:10 PM   #19
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I aint really sure why his size has much to do with anything?!?!?!?!

I introduce you to Don. A talented (and fast) rider. He is 5'11 and 260lbs of pure know how and git'r done. Yes, he is on a new gen, but I don't think it would matter much if he was on a pregen. In this photo, he is about 4-6 seconds off lap record pace. If you aint gettin' a thrill from the lil 2fiddy, RIDE IT HARDER and lemme know when you run outta revs.

/sanity as a coach
The OP has about 2 months of total seat time according to post #1, msf status unknown and on a bike that needs some adjustments/repairs. I think he should give the lil bike a chance, but more importantly... give himself a chance and take the time to just learn to ride in a safe manner, performance and such can come later in due time. So bottom line and real talk; he already has a bike that will teach.

After that stage, it's all in what tool (bike) will allow you to ride like you wanna ride. No matter what he decides, just make sure the bike is "better than you" at what the type of riding you're trying to do and all should end up sh*t's and giggles in the end.

Being new is one of the best times in my riding history. Everything was so exciting and fresh, bringing a smile to my face after every turn. It truly passes by to quickly.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #20
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:21 PM   #21
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I aint really sure why his size has much to do with anything?!?!?!?!
Size matters.

That's what she said....

I was referring more to his height than weight. The Ninjette fits me like a glove, but I'm a danged midget.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Size matters.

That's what she said....

I was referring more to his height than weight. The Ninjette fits me like a glove, but I'm a danged midget.
lol Agreed, but he is only 1 inch taller than me and I have a stock setup pregen too for reference. I share my pregen with my brother also, 6'2'' @ 225lbs, and we have some nice street/twisty rides. I know different comfort levels for different folks but honestly (imho) it don't warrant a bigger bike at this time. There are more important things on the table. Let's hear what he wants "more of" and give responses based on that. Although, I do like how complete your comments are Mr. Fist. Also, there is some real merit to subxero's response too, you can't shine a turd. (cjhickey12 being a fellow KY rider will understand what I mean).

But hey, it's also his paper. He is free to spend it how he wishes and I respect that.

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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:53 PM   #23
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you can't shine a terd.
Au contrere, mon frere.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:03 PM   #24
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Lol, quite the literal translation of the saying indeed.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:07 PM   #25
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Still a turd though.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #26
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:44 PM   #27
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Wow I've got way more responses than I could have expected, so for that thanks!

I will try to generally answer some of the questions posted.

Yes I still have more to do on this bike and plan on it before I were to move up. I ride it every day even today...even though it sucked and was raining. Im trying to get all the experience I can.

I plan on taking MSF in a couple months.

I like the 250 dont get me wrong.
Heres my gripes:
Legs are cramped, for me to have my foot in a position where I can immediately hit the back brake is extremely uncomfortable.

The bike feels extremely light, and it seems a little awkward for my body mass. which also has its positives, such as flickability (which I love) But in that crosswind, alot is to be desired.

The get up and go feels too mild for when I need it to in higher gears (5,6)

Thats it.

The reason i'm mainly interested in supersports at this time is the riding position. Currently am using aftermarket clip ons which place me in a very supersport-esque riding position and I really like it, I feel like I have much more control. No im not going to be doing wheelies in 3rd gear and flying down the interstate at 150, but I wouldnt mind having the ability to get up and go if i need to get out of trouble.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:46 PM   #28
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But a polished one.
I am tempted to give adouglas a "Polish a Turd" achievement!
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:53 PM   #29
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So to surmise, your looking for more comfort, and more balls.

Sounds like you have the right ideas to move up to the supersport class.

I would personally recommend a VFR, or a CBR4Fi either one you won't be disappointed with. Great bikes, great reputations.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:55 PM   #30
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CJhickey....

Re the get up and go. That's the torque I was referring to. The Ninjette has a high-revving small motor that doesn't make a lot of torque. So drop down a gear or two and GO!!!!

It'll do fine. Wind it up and fly. The bike really does feel different at high rpm.

Since you're near Chris Smith, go introduce yourself. Go to a track day with him, even if all you do is watch. He (and his daughter) are GREAT company and he makes a mean fajita. You'll learn TONS.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 02:59 PM   #31
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Old December 16th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #32
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I plan on taking MSF in a couple months.
I just might be your coach for the msf depending on where and when you take it. We will have a great time, my classes are always a barrel of laughs and easy going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjhickey12 View Post
Heres my gripes:
Legs are cramped, for me to have my foot in a position where I can immediately hit the back brake is extremely uncomfortable.

The bike feels extremely light, and it seems a little awkward for my body mass. which also has its positives, such as flickability (which I love) But in that crosswind, alot is to be desired.

The get up and go feels too mild for when I need it to in higher gears (5,6)

Thats it.

The reason i'm mainly interested in supersports at this time is the riding position. Currently am using aftermarket clip ons which place me in a very supersport-esque riding position and I really like it, I feel like I have much more control. No im not going to be doing wheelies in 3rd gear and flying down the interstate at 150, but I wouldn't mind having the ability to get up and go if i need to get out of trouble.
Cool, so I get the feeling you're keeping the 250 for a while to get some seat time and feel. To save you some coin and still have comfort, there are rearset adjusters that are much cheaper and will gain you an inch or two in legroom, plus... they are easily resold here to get most of $$ paper back. From your other posts/threads here... you are willing to swap out the aftermarket clipons for stock ones (gauges yea..). This somewhat conflicts with your goals for the bike??!??!?!

Also, there is a thread about riding in the wind/crosswinds. You might want to look there.

Also... rare is the case, that you need roll on power to get you out of a sticky situation. It really don't matter what kinda bike you have, if you're depending on roll on power then, well... ya know.

Anyway, glad you are here! There are plenty of talented and experienced riders to bounce ideas and questions off of here. Enjoy your stay and best of luck to you.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 03:09 PM   #33
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I just might be your coach for the msf depending on where and when you take it. We will have a great time, my classes are always a barrel of laughs and easy going.



Cool, so I get the feeling you're keeping the 250 for a while to get some seat time and feel. To save you some coin and still have comfort, there are rearset adjusters that are much cheaper and will gain you an inch or two in legroom, plus... they are easily resold here to get most of $$ paper back. From your other posts/threads here... you are willing to swap out the aftermarket clipons for stock ones (gauges yea..). This somewhat conflicts with your goals for the bike??!??!?!

Also, there is a thread about riding in the wind/crosswinds. You might want to look there.

Also... rare is the case, that you need roll on power to get you out of a sticky situation. It really don't matter what kinda bike you have, if you're depending on roll on power then, well... ya know.

Anyway, glad you are here! There are plenty of talented and experienced riders to bounce ideas and questions off of here. Enjoy your stay and best of luck to you.
Thanks!

I was really wanting to trade the clip ins at first and I may still do that, but I've really learned to love the riding position. The gauge does drive me crazy though I wish i could have the best of both worlds
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Old December 16th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #34
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Old December 16th, 2014, 04:18 PM   #35
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All new riders will make mistakes. All! Some are minor mistakes like missing a shift or not rev matching correctly which jerks the bike. Others are bigger mistakes like poor judge of braking distance which may (or may not) get you hurt.

Going to a 600 or liter bike with a month of experience, do you really know what you're getting yourself into? You gain 15% in weight, but more than 150% in power.

If I were to make a rider error on a bike, I would prefer it to be on a lightweight 30hp bike vs a lightweight 130hp bike.

You haven't even experienced freeway speeds yet. You haven't been on a bike long enough to experience riding with traffic (or predicting traffic patterns yet).

Learn as much as you can on an inexpensive small bike. It's cheaper to insure and easier to learn on. The rider triangle is less aggressive and you can generally see traffic better when you're not bent forward over the bars all the time.

After a few thousand miles and priceless experiences you've learned, move up to a more aggressive bike if you like. Just my opinion.

I personally started on a 900. Then a 600. Then a 650. Then a 250. I feel that I wouldve been a much more skillful rider earlier on had I reversed the order of ownership.

To this day, I still consider myself a noob. I still learn each and every time I'm on the bike.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 04:40 PM   #36
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Old December 16th, 2014, 06:26 PM   #37
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Thanks!


That's the thing about bikes... it don't matter where you going, it's deciding to get on.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 10:37 PM   #38
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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:26 PM   #39
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Legs are cramped, for me to have my foot in a position where I can immediately hit the back brake is extremely uncomfortable
I don't think you're supposed to cover the rear brake.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:31 PM   #40
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