nyc suv runs over bikers

[Trubin]

Originally Posted by ForceofWill

LOL, really? So the concept of self defense eludes you? It's obvious you're from NY. Let me fill you in on something just incase you venture out in the country. If you attack me and/or my family there's a very good chance you're going to be shot to stop you from attacking.

But this didn't happen somewhere else, it happen in NYC, where people get in trouble for self defense.

[Sinister]

Originally Posted by Alex

In D's world, bikers can do no wrong. If a motorcyclist rode up to a group of nuns, stepped off the bike, and used them for target practice with an elephant gun, all captured on high resolution video, he would have a detailed description about how the nuns were at least 75% at fault.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by allanoue

a criminal gang. How do you not see it?

an organized criminal gang (not wearing helmets mind you) and an unorganized criminal gang?

and ditto about wording being ****

[Trubin]

This would work for NYC bicyclists they really get away with murder.

[GreenNinja]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The squid that carelessly and unknowingly pulled in front of the suv clearly did not intend to cut off the suv. But once he did (by not looking where he was going) the suv accelerated towards him and struck him.

In the video, the camera bike is going faster than the suv which creates the optical illusion that the squid was slowing down when in fact it was the suv speeding up. In FL, its against the law to tailgate someone. Apparently not so in NY.


In this case, the SUV driver had no basis to be afraid. He knew what kind of vehicle he was driving. The windows were made of safety glass and he knew that it wouldn't be easy for someone to break in. Normally side windows are made of tempered glass and not safety glass. Even after the bikers actually did try to break in, it took them a lot of effort to do so. There was no sign of broken glass before the final stop. As such, there was no grounds for him to be afraid for his life because the SUV had not been penetrated.

The bottom line is that the SUV driver attempted to murder a biker and ended up doing far worse. The reason was not because he was afraid, it was because he hated bikers. He should arrested and spend the rest of his life behind bars.

1. I can't tell if you are trolling or trying to get a rise out of people. It would be different if this was not a motorcycle forum and we were debating about this. The members are motorcycle riders so naturally we would take the side of the motorcycle unless there was reason to not take their side.

2. When was the last time YOU rode past a car in the SAME lane and didn't realize the car was there?? How do you unknowingly pull in front of something that takes up the entire driving lane?

3. As for your tailgating comment: did you watch the video? You make it seem like the motorcycle has always been in front of the RR and the RR came out of nowhere and decided he wanted to save on gas so he tailgated the CBR. I will say this again since you didn't respond/see my other post: He is on a motorcycle and they are faster than the car. Assuming the RR was trying to run him over, he could have just gassed it. Anytime a vehicle is closing in on me when I'm on my bike or car, I try to put distance between us.

4. Why don't you get into a parked car and let me smash at it with a helmet. I'm sure you will not be thinking "Oh I'm cool because I'm in a car ." I'm sure you would have flinched at the initial impact.

5. If the RR attempted to run some people over he would have done more than just gas it. If I wanted to run people over, I would have turned to the left and ran that guy over in the black clothes. I also would have put the car in reverse at the stop of traffic and ran more people over. When the guy tried to open his door, he only drove forward. That was his perfect opportunity to go in reverse and then forward to run that guy's bike over.

6. Your lack of logic is astounding!!

[Trubin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYR5joj73Es

this happened in brazil the The man claimed riders surrounded his vehicle and began beating on it, causing him to panic and fear for his life.

[choneofakind]

...we don't live in Brazil.

The word of the day is relevance.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Unintelligent people can't lie convincingly. Now there's a generalization.

A pretty accurate generalization short of someone being pathological. People lie to me all the time and I think its really amusing that they think they are getting away with it.

You'd rather have your friends chase the person down? Screw that, I'd rather my friends have me first aid and called the ambulance.

Assuming there were others available for first aid of course.

The brake check has been covered already. He rolled off the throttle. It's called engine braking.

I'm saying that after taking into account for optical illusions, the biker didn't roll off the throttle, the SUV stomped on the gas. There was no brake check and the biker was not in a an aggressive posture when he was looking backwards at the camera rather than the SUV.

Ago watch the interview of the two guys who separated the bikers from the guy who got beat. They were trying to stop a mod killing.

Do you really think that if 50 bikers were hell bent on killing someone that two people could actually stop it?

Safety glass does not mean he had no grounds for fear. As shown, that clearly didn't stop them. Hence, "penetrating the SUV" is not applicable as a judge on his right to act in self defense. They cornered him and approached him as a gang with a history of menacing drivers and he felt the safety of his family was in danger, so he acted out of desperation.

Um, yes, the fact that the SUV was not penetrated prior to the hit and run proves that the driver had no grounds for killing in the guise of self defense. He was simply not in danger while he was protected by a huge steel cage. There was also no reason for him to believe that, given the type of vehicle, that if he waited and was penetrated that he couldn't run over all the bikers if they were directly in front of him. If you want to use "history" as grounds, then what prior examples are there where this group of motorcycles in NYC attacked a vehicle at random and harmed the driver on purpose? Inconvenienced - yes. Intimidated - possibly. property damage - maybe. Physically harmed - no. If the bikers had shattered the glass prior to the hit and run, then I would agree 100% that he had just cause for believing his life was in danger.

Neither party involved here is innocent; both made bad choices. But the bikers are 100% NOT as blameless as you're making it out to be. They acted as a gang. They insitigated, they escalated, and they attacked. That's all there is to it. In the eyes of the legal system, the driver acted in self defense while the motorcyclists acted in a violent manor.

No, I'm not saying the bikers were 100% blameless. The information I have said that a good many of the participants in the swarm had warrants, no licenses, and expired or missing tags. So I'm not saying they were angels at all. Aside from that, their group riding skills really sucked although I am not aware of any law requiring a specific motorcycle formation. But even though they were bad boyz, they didn't deserve to be paralyzed. Lien made a choice that caused that to happen.

[subxero]

it's all how you spin it and which crowd you're playing for, sometimes you're a hero and sometimes you're the villain.

I don't like to call people out and that is not what im doing here but this just helps try and put things into perspective IMO.
So many riders greeted this story with applause and cheers, but what if you add 200 more bikers to the story and pick up end of this story with NYC video, does it change your tone regarding the initial reaction of "hero" biker?
If so what changed your opinion?
Why?
Just think about it.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142482

P.S. Save your uncreative "not close to being similar!! RAGE RAGE RAGE!!" responses, i'm asking you to use your imaginations and create the scenario that is similar starting from actual story. (I know... a lot to ask)

[choneofakind]

Let me clear something up here. It wasn't an optical illusion. This isn't a magic show. What you're trying to say is that because of our POV, we can't accurately tell if he was slowing down or if the SUV sped up. That's not an illusion. That's relative velocity.

I disagree with you completely. He was a cornered animal. He reacted as such.



I'm going back to watching this thread instead of commenting in it.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I'm going back to watching this thread instead of commenting in it.

i'd hate to lose you in this discussion, lol.

you make so much sense, and your mindset is not clouded overwhelmingly by the factor of motorcycle ownership.

[bkh2]

This is what I saw:

The motorcycle shares a lane with the RR, which he does because he does not see it. He looks towards it while he is beside it because he is looking for his friends in the far right lane. Then, because he does not see the RR, he merges over into the middle lane. Now, he looks backwards to see if his friends are there. Every single bike then simultaneously accelerates to create the illusion that Cruz is slowing down, and masque the fact that the RR is accelerating to hit Cruz.

[Aggrotech]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The word of the day is relevance.

Can you use the word in a sentence, please?

[DaBlue1]

The motorcyclist who took video of a group of motorcyclists says SUV driver Alexian Lien threw a water bottle at the cyclists before he started recording.


"Kevin Bresloff turned on his helmet camera shortly after the riders encountered the black Range Rover, says his lawyer, Andrew Vecere. "From speaking to him, what he saw - or what he believes that he saw was a water bottle come out of the sunroof of the car," Vecere said.

Asked he is referring to the SUV -- and if someone threw it -- Vecere said, "Yes, correct."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_1...ng-suv-driver/



A diaper full of sh** would have been hilarious.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by GreenNinja

1. I can't tell if you are trolling or trying to get a rise out of people. It would be different if this was not a motorcycle forum and we were debating about this. The members are motorcycle riders so naturally we would take the side of the motorcycle unless there was reason to not take their side.

No, people here are always in a rush to blame the biker. Facts be damned. Someone needs to look at things from the biker's perspective - not the media's.

2. When was the last time YOU rode past a car in the SAME lane and didn't realize the car was there?? How do you unknowingly pull in front of something that takes up the entire driving lane?

When's the last time a car pulled out and said they didn't see the motorcycle? Its just the way the human brain works. If you are looking for specific motorcycles in a crowd of motorcycles, then all you will see is motorcycles.

3. As for your tailgating comment: did you watch the video? You make it seem like the motorcycle has always been in front of the RR and the RR came out of nowhere and decided he wanted to save on gas so he tailgated the CBR. I will say this again since you didn't respond/see my other post: He is on a motorcycle and they are faster than the car. Assuming the RR was trying to run him over, he could have just gassed it. Anytime a vehicle is closing in on me when I'm on my bike or car, I try to put distance between us.

I saw the video and I agree that the motorcycle did cut off the SUV driver. What I don't agree to is that it was deliberate or that he was trying to slow the SUV down. The video shows him looking for someone in the crowd on both sides of him and not paying attention to where he is going. Careless driving - yes. Reckless driving - no.

I confess. I have on occasion actually turned my head and looked into a lane that I was changing into. In your eyes, that makes me guilty of trying to cause an accident.

I'm not sure where the relevance is about SUV vs bike speed. This particular SUV actually outran many of those particular sport bikes for a short while. A Ninja 250 can't outrun ALL cars - just most.

4. Why don't you get into a parked car and let me smash at it with a helmet. I'm sure you will not be thinking "Oh I'm cool because I'm in a car ." I'm sure you would have flinched at the initial impact.

Where in the video do you see glass shattered prior to the hit and run?

5. If the RR attempted to run some people over he would have done more than just gas it. If I wanted to run people over, I would have turned to the left and ran that guy over in the black clothes. I also would have put the car in reverse at the stop of traffic and ran more people over. When the guy tried to open his door, he only drove forward. That was his perfect opportunity to go in reverse and then forward to run that guy's bike over.

He ran over the biker to make his point. He was not afraid. He had a lethal weapon. They didn't. After that, he was simply trying to put distance between them and get away with it.

6. Your lack of logic is astounding!!

My logic is flawless. You are only looking at the surface which is why you can't follow the logic. I don't think anyone here can understand my point here without first putting themselves in the perspective of the riders of that group.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I disagree with you completely. He was a cornered animal. He reacted as such.

Does that include the parts where I said I agreed with you? If so, this thread just got a whole lot more confusing.

But judging from the responses here, it really doesn't matter who was right or wrong, the bikers aren't going to get a fair trial because everyone already thinks they're guilty. And more than likely, Lien will get off scott free.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

My logic is flawless.

You're repeating your points that people have debunked, and ignoring any response that directly refutes what you are proposing. The rider admitted on camera that he was trying to slow the RR down. To try and say now that he really wasn't doing so, and only admitted to doing so later under duress, means you are inserting a particularly unique brand of logic. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but you are making up facts as you go, and illogically denying things that have already been established.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Alex

You're repeating your points that people have debunked, and ignoring any response that directly refutes what you are proposing. The rider admitted on camera that he was trying to slow the RR down. To try and say now that he really wasn't doing so, and only admitted to doing so later under duress, means you are inserting a particularly unique brand of logic. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but you are making up facts as you go, and illogically denying things that have already been established.

My points have not been debunked. If they were, I wouldn't be using them.

Where is the video where the first rider said he was trying to slow the SUV down which caused the accident? Link please.

[GreenNinja]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

My points have not been debunked. If they were, I wouldn't be using them.

Where is the video where the first rider said he was trying to slow the SUV down which caused the accident? Link please.

The motorcycle witness here says otherwise

Originally Posted by Motofool

This witness disagrees with your frame shots and descriptions:
http://video.bostonherald.com/EXCLUS...c&VID=25226249

[massacremasses]

[GreenNinja]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

No, people here are always in a rush to blame the biker. Facts be damned. Someone needs to look at things from the biker's perspective - not the media's.

The only media I'm looking at is the video. If you pause the video at the 29 second mark you will see that the CBR was not hit by the RR. If he was hit then he would have skin rash to prove it since he wasn't wearing a jacket. Any rider on here can attest to the skin rash if they have seen or been in a minor accident. Hell, you can get skin rash just from playing basketball and someone pushes you down on the pavement. Also, the guy in black was walking towards the group instead of running. If my riding partner was hurt, I would be running towards them to see if they are okay. No one in the video seemed concerned so that tells me he must not have been hit or I would have at least heard the guy on the video say something like "oh sh*t".

[Trubin]

Originally Posted by GreenNinja

The motorcycle witness here says otherwise

the witness said that SUV clipped someone way before the video starts. Just what the dirt biker told me on that Sunday. Meaning the RR was involved in a previous incident before the "brake check" (spelled it right this time)

[Panda]

Originally Posted by Trubin

the witness said that SUV clipped someone way before the video starts. Just what the dirt biker told me on that Sunday. Meaning the RR was involved in a previous incident before the "brake check" (spelled it right this time)

Maybe, maybe not. It's hearsay and conjecture at this point. Maybe he clipped somebody, maybe he didn't. Maybe somebody else brake checked him. Who knows?

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Trubin

the witness said that SUV clipped someone way before the video starts. Just what the dirt biker told me on that Sunday. Meaning the RR was involved in a previous incident before the "brake check" (spelled it right this time)

The question remains.....Where is this mystery rider and why has he/she not made any report/statement yet?

In other news....

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork/AP) – An undercover police officer has been arrested in connection with the motorcycle gang attack on an SUV driver last week in Manhattan, CBS 2 reported.


The cop was one of two undercover officers who participated in the ride that made national headlines after it was caught on video and posted to YouTube.

Although the officer’s lawyer, Phil Karasyk, said Monday that the detective had only witnessed other bikers attacking the vehicle, investigators believe, after reviewing video evidence, that he banged on the SUV and broke the rear window.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/...-due-in-court/

Monster Truck Runs over Trike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VT9TVQB6Q

[lgk]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Monster Truck Runs over Trike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VT9TVQB6Q

Now you've done it!!!

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by Trubin

the witness said that SUV clipped someone way before the video starts. Just what the dirt biker told me on that Sunday. Meaning the RR was involved in a previous incident before the "brake check" (spelled it right this time)

Give me proof.

Give me a source with this "witnesses" statement or bullshit. Its time to put up or shut up.

[Felipe the Ant]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

No, people here are always in a rush to blame the biker. Facts be damned. Someone needs to look at things from the biker's perspective - not the media's.

I don't think anyone here can understand my point here without first putting themselves in the perspective of the riders of that group.

Oh I didn't realize this was rangerovers.net, I can't stand those damn rice rockets either. GTFO, roads are for cars.


But really, when I started watching I took the perspective of the rider with the camera and was just as emotional as the bikers. Later on I realized what was really happening and would have reacted the same way as the driver of the RR.

My guess is not all the bikers knew what was really happening, they just saw their friends get run over for "no reason" and let me tell you if I saw my friend get run over I'd be smashing their windows out with my helmet just as fast. Try watching it again from the driver's perspective, probably an intimidated immigrant who doesn't realize that motorcycle gear makes you look jacked. Also helmets block your face so he can't tell if he's being attacked or offered ice cream.

Think about what he must hear about in the news every day living in NYC, now he's becoming one of those stories

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by GreenNinja

The only media I'm looking at is the video. If you pause the video at the 29 second mark you will see that the CBR was not hit by the RR. If he was hit then he would have skin rash to prove it since he wasn't wearing a jacket. Any rider on here can attest to the skin rash if they have seen or been in a minor accident. Hell, you can get skin rash just from playing basketball and someone pushes you down on the pavement. Also, the guy in black was walking towards the group instead of running. If my riding partner was hurt, I would be running towards them to see if they are okay. No one in the video seemed concerned so that tells me he must not have been hit or I would have at least heard the guy on the video say something like "oh sh*t".

I also noticed that he looked like he was in pretty good shape so its entirely possible that he only collided and didn't get knocked off - at least not at speed. I did hear a crashing sound on the video.

[sarcasm_mode]
The fact that the SUV driver was seen throwing objects at the bikers and also had previously knocked one down two miles before the video started absolutely proves that I was totally wrong and he is 100% justified to kill and maim any of them because he was so terrified that he had to antagonize them further in order to keep his wife and kid safe.
[/sarcasm_mode]

But regarding the optical illusion, please take a very close look at the video again. First, watch the yellow bike with the blue jacket directly in front. Do you see the sudden lurch of acceleration of the camera bike around the time of impact?

Second, before the lurch, watch the SUV alone. The camera bike is going faster than the SUV when he first starts to overtake the SUV. This causes an optical effect that makes the SUV look like its moving backwards in the frame. NOW, just before impact, you can see the nose of the SUV again, but this time its NOT moving backwards. So at the time of impact, the SUV is moving at the same speed as the camera bike. Thus, he was accelerating towards the first biker.

Its easy to say "He was soooooo dumb that he did [insert stupid thing]." But really, is there anyone here dumb enough to deliberately cut off a 4 ton vehicle with a motorcycle and then slam on the brakes? Is it really fair to say someone else is that dumb?

[Alex]

When it's caught on video, yes. Watching the same video as you, and not seeing the optical illusion you are conjuring up.

BTW: The quotes / videos online that you're looking for can be found by searching on "Louis Castaldo stop", one of the riders quoted as trying to slow/stop the RR. He says that's exactly what was happening at the start of the infamous video.

[n4mwd]

So you are saying that A) you don't see a lurch of acceleration of the camera bike; and B) you don't recognize the acceleration of the SUV; and C) you can look at the 1st biker and conclude that he is bracing for impact. Is any of that true?

[Trubin]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

Give me proof.

Give me a source with this "witnesses" statement or bullshit. Its time to put up or shut up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
This witness disagrees with your frame shots and descriptions:
http://video.bostonherald.com/EXCLUS...c&VID=25226249

This is the video I'm talking about he says same thing as what I herd on Sunday from the dirt biker. And most likely the fact that no one comes forward that he hit them is because the rider was either not insured or unregistered etc.

edit: I wasn't alone there, TC young was with me and herd him say it. I'm not saying its true but i think we should take it into the account. that its two eye witness reports.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Its easy to say "He was soooooo dumb that he did [insert stupid thing]." But really, is there anyone here dumb enough to deliberately cut off a 4 ton vehicle with a motorcycle and then slam on the brakes? Is it really fair to say someone else is that dumb?

Yes, his name is Christopher Cruz.

I think you should give up. Sometimes people are wrong. Today that person is you.

[miss_syn]

Ignoring all terrible logic:

The biker that broke the back window was a cop. How ****ed up is that? Linky

[Panda]

It's absolutely brilliant. There was another cop there that is part of IA.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by miss_syn

Ignoring all terrible logic:

The biker that broke the back window was a cop. How ****ed up is that? Linky

I chuckled at this, it seems the power of mob can turn anyone into idiots lol.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So you are saying that A) you don't see a lurch of acceleration of the camera bike; and B) you don't recognize the acceleration of the SUV; and C) you can look at the 1st biker and conclude that he is bracing for impact. Is any of that true?

A - you're full of it
B - you're full of it
C - he's not bracing for impact, because he thinks the RR will brake hard enough to avoid him as he slows. He loses that bet.

[Sinister]

You can clearly see the brake light on the bike some on

Also, you can clearly see the front of the suv dip as he breaks to try to svoid hitting the moron

[az3200]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So you are saying that A) you don't see a lurch of acceleration of the camera bike; and B) you don't recognize the acceleration of the SUV; and C) you can look at the 1st biker and conclude that he is bracing for impact. Is any of that true?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Alex

A - you're full of it
B - you're full of it
C - he's not bracing for impact, because he thinks the RR will brake hard enough to avoid him as he slows. He loses that bet.

We will have to agree to disagree on those three points. But if you are right, then why didn't the SUV brake hard enough to avoid him? I counted a full three seconds that the bike was less than 5 feet in front of the SUV. Plenty of time to react.

Could it be because he was already trying to run from a previous hit and run before the video started as several witness have come forward to testify? Or perhaps the more obvious, he hates bikers and hitting one was the goal?

Not only that, but the rear tire of the bike actually impacted the left front bumper/fender of the SUV. All the SUV would have had to do to avoid the impact was to veer over a few inches to the right. The SUV had a superior view of the incident and could have avoided it in several ways.

With all these witnesses coming forward, it is starting to look a lot less hopeless that Lien will get charged with instigating the whole thing.

[Alex]

No, no, and no. He couldn't move right because there were bikes directly to the right of his vehicle. As already stated in this thread, it's quite possible much of his attention is on those bikes, trying to figure out how not to hit them while moving to the right side of the lane to avoid moron #1 who just cut him off. You state his obvious intent is to hit a biker, while the only thing that is truly obvious is that you're being willfully obtuse. You're ascribing intent where there is none, and misrepresenting video that is in fact obvious to almost all but you.

Lien isn't going to get charged with anything. I'm pretty sure you know that and are just posturing.