December 7th, 2014, 05:14 PM | #81 |
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So I shouldn't be using vegetable oil? Whoops...
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December 7th, 2014, 05:20 PM | #82 |
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December 7th, 2014, 05:24 PM | #83 |
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December 7th, 2014, 05:33 PM | #84 | |
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Quote:
Any standard auto oils is a terrible idea in the Ninja - and it has nothing to do with clutch slippage and Friction Modifiers. All oils 40-grade and above don't have them anyway, but the issue is the lack of proper levels of additives (ZDDP) for a solid-tappet/rocker type engine like the Ninja. Automotive oils are now required to have lower levels of ZDDP in order to extend the life of the emissions catalyst. The current levels are not adequate to prevent galling of the cam and non-roller lifter/rockers of the type used in most cycle engines. The higher the valve spring pressure (high revving or high performance engines) the more critical ZDDP is to prevent damage. A 20W-50 auto oil is the worst of both worlds if the temps are anything but hot - poor cold weather flow and inadequate levels of additives to prevent engine damage. (EDIT:A 50-grade also builds excessive pressure when hot and moves heat away slower) You would be much better to run almost anything else... This is why I keep chiming-in here. It's easy to find a good alternative to cycle-specific oil (if you don't want to spend the money)- just use a diesel oil like Rotella T6. Last futzed with by jkv45; December 7th, 2014 at 07:32 PM. |
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December 7th, 2014, 06:25 PM | #85 |
ninjette.org guru
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I have tried several oils in my 250 since I bought it with varying results. Without a long treatise I will say my 250 likes Rotella the best so far. It consumed some oil when I used Amsoil, or 4T Castrol. It now goes between change intervals most times without needing oil added with Rotella. The motor also makes less mechanical noise than with Amsoil.
It exceeds all requirements for oil and is inexpensive compared to a lot of specialty oils, and it is as close as the neighborhood auto parts store or Wally World.
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December 7th, 2014, 07:33 PM | #86 |
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I have been using this.
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December 7th, 2014, 08:23 PM | #87 |
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December 7th, 2014, 08:40 PM | #88 |
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... Next let's talk about hard vs gentle break-in
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December 7th, 2014, 08:48 PM | #89 |
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Ahh!
ZDDP: lots of interesting stuff about that on the internet. 30 years ago, detergent level was all the rage in oil discussions (albeit before the internet). Keep up the interesting posts! |
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December 10th, 2014, 09:36 AM | #90 |
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December 10th, 2014, 11:33 AM | #91 |
Rev Limiter
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Standard auto oils (even synthetics) only have about 800 ppm of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorus) - which isn't enough for cycle use.
Diesel oils like Rotella have 1200 ppm. Some cycle-specific oils have close to 2000 ppm. 1200 ppm is safe. 800 ppm is not. Just use a synthetic diesel oil like Rotella T6 (EDIT: it's JASO-MA rated) and you are good for almost any conditions. Last futzed with by jkv45; December 10th, 2014 at 02:03 PM. |
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December 10th, 2014, 12:45 PM | #92 |
in your machine
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Okay I'll make easy for everyone, the ninja 250 has a WET CLUTCH which means it's in the oil, so wrong oil, WILL cause slippage, it's that easy.
no bias any oil rated JASO-MA/MA2 oil will do just fine, unless somebody from this forum is gonna send you free oil
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December 10th, 2014, 03:54 PM | #93 |
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Some non-JASO-MA/MA2 oils could cause clutch slippage. Regular old automotive Castrol 20W50 works just fine for me in the Ninjette and KLR250.
If I were to accidentally put in a really light viscosity energy-saving super-duper slippery oil and I were to experience clutch slippage, I'd slap myself on the forehead , drain the oil, put in my normal oil, and go on with my slippage-free lifestyle. No harm (but a foul!). |
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December 10th, 2014, 07:43 PM | #94 | |
in your machine
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Quote:
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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December 10th, 2014, 07:59 PM | #95 |
ninjette.org guru
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Speaking from personal experience, once the clutch starts to slip due to the additives in "energy conserving" oil, the only remedy is replacing the clutch discs. It took several thousand miles of the wrong oil before the clutch began to slip. By then, the plates were apparently saturated with the additives.
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December 10th, 2014, 08:10 PM | #96 | |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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Quote:
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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December 11th, 2014, 11:43 AM | #97 |
ninjette.org sage
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Rotella T6 is $21.74 at Walmart right now.
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December 11th, 2014, 11:57 AM | #98 | |
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Quote:
Use a diesel oil like Rotella T6 and you will get less overall engine wear (as well as better mileage) - and your cams/rockers will live happily ever after... |
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December 11th, 2014, 12:02 PM | #99 |
wat
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can you please explain this further- why would a moto need extra last-level protection vs a car (ie head rpm plz), and what zinc does to a wet clutch. what about molyb content?
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December 11th, 2014, 01:17 PM | #100 |
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Have a friend who uses Castrol GTX 10W-40 in his CMX250. Currently has over 100,000 miles on the odometer, and hasn't had any engine parts wear out, including the clutch. Anybody with a Ninja racking up that many miles?
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December 11th, 2014, 01:53 PM | #101 | |
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Quote:
Zinc and Phosphorous are sacrificial and will protect surfaces with high pressure contact before they have adequate oil flow. Zinc does not have an effect on the clutch. Moly ("Friction Modifiers" - i.e. "Energy Conserving") does, but it's only in 30-grade and below auto oils - so it shouldn't even be an issue. Engines with a ton of miles in a relatively short period have less wear in general. Less cold starts = less wear. Lower viscosity oil and oil with high levels of ZDDP are most beneficial for high performance engines (high pressure valve springs) during cold starts. The only way to tell if you are getting damage to the valvetrain from incorrect oil is to pull the valve cover and look at the cams, but it very easy to prevent by using the proper oil with the proper additives for your particular engine - which is not auto oil for a cycle. Last futzed with by jkv45; December 11th, 2014 at 02:58 PM. Reason: spelling correction |
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December 11th, 2014, 05:10 PM | #103 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Lee
Location: Monroe, LA
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Quote:
The CMX250 I referred to above was bought new in 1987 and ridden regularly until the owner had a stroke last year. So the miles were put on over a period of about 25 years. That's in the neighborhood of 4,000 miles per year. That's not "a ton of miles in a relatively short period". This is the only study I'm aware of that compares motorcycle specific oil and automotive oil. The argument for the motorcycle specific oil has been the same for a long time; they contain higher levels of ZDDP and therefore provide better engine lubrication. That claim is pretty well debunked by the study. http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
December 11th, 2014, 05:23 PM | #104 | |
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Quote:
I'd chime in on that one! Or use of the rear brake!
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
December 11th, 2014, 05:34 PM | #105 | |
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Quote:
The article makes me feel even better about running 20W50 automotive oil in my Kwaks. Talking about oil really is like talking about religion. Bring on the scripture! |
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December 11th, 2014, 05:57 PM | #106 |
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2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
December 11th, 2014, 06:18 PM | #107 |
Ninja chick
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it always creates for an interesting read when folks get to arguing over it. I remember being so confused as a noob in wondering which side was "right"...then I learned.
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Sometimes it's the journey that teaches you a lot about your destination. ~Drake Check out my Appalachian Trail journal, 2015! Postwhores are COOL! ~Allyson |
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December 11th, 2014, 06:34 PM | #108 |
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December 11th, 2014, 06:50 PM | #109 |
Ninja chick
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Well of course! Every argument has sides.
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Sometimes it's the journey that teaches you a lot about your destination. ~Drake Check out my Appalachian Trail journal, 2015! Postwhores are COOL! ~Allyson |
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December 11th, 2014, 06:51 PM | #110 |
wat
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you wouldn't believe how many hardley guys have told me not to touch the front brake
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December 11th, 2014, 06:53 PM | #111 |
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December 11th, 2014, 07:40 PM | #112 |
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December 12th, 2014, 07:35 AM | #113 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
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Quote:
Galling of the cams and rockers won't necessarily show up in UOA. As I stated, the higher performance and higher revving the engine, the more important ZDDP is for protection. A CMX250 doesn't have the same valve spring pressure as a Ninja does so it's not going to be as critical. THAT STUDY WAS FROM 1994! OILS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN! That's what I've been telling you! I ran GTX back in the 80's also, but oils were different then. This isn't an argument. I'm just trying to give you information that may save you big problems later. If you doubt what I'm telling you, do your own research - but you'll need to do more than reading one article from 1994 to confirm or deny what I've said. The answer is so simple - use a diesel-rated oil. It's easy to find and cheap. No reason to use anything else unless you want to step up. Again, maybe someone will benefit, but I think I'm done wasting my time trying to help some of you guys... |
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December 12th, 2014, 11:46 AM | #114 |
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Location: Central Florida
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When I worked for Honda, All 4 stroke oil was rebadged Castrol GTX, the 2 stroke oil was Pennzoil. Both were excellent oils.
Today's Castrol GTX is not the same oil as jkv45 has so hard tried to explain. To me oil is like tires. Run the best you can get, use the wrong kind, and it can cost you. Your choice.
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December 12th, 2014, 01:41 PM | #116 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Lee
Location: Monroe, LA
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Quote:
The Kawasaki manual recommends oil in XXW-40 or XXW-50 weight. It doesn't specify diesel specific oil. That said, some oils in the recommended weights are going to be diesel specific oil, so your point about diesel oils is applicable to a degree.
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December 12th, 2014, 02:50 PM | #117 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
Auto oils were required to make significant changes since then, diesel oils were not. Do your own research. Prove me wrong. |
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January 5th, 2015, 10:41 AM | #118 |
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Can I use one of these spark plugs for the motorcycle? Or is there some sort of gauging issue with fuel/air ratio?
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January 5th, 2015, 10:53 AM | #119 |
Rev Limiter
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Location: WI
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January 5th, 2015, 12:49 PM | #120 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Lee
Location: Monroe, LA
Join Date: Feb 2014 Motorcycle(s): Rebel 250s, Ninja 250s VN750s (currently nine total) Posts: 465
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I don't see where you've proved me wrong, or provided any studies that support your position. I provided information, which you rejected out of hand. What concrete information do you have to back up your position?
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