Crack or Roll?

[Misti]

Once you enter a corner what do you do with the gas? Crack it on, roll it on, hold it neutral, maintenance throttle, wait for the apex to roll on? How does this affect the stability of the bike?

Misti

[austexjg]

Are we talking on track or on road?

Road: roll on at about the apex
Track: Faster "roll on", almost a crack, at the point that I start to turn in at

The bike is designed to be weight proportioned during acceleration, so during acceleration the bike is at its' most stable.

[lux]

Originally Posted by Misti

Once you enter a corner what do you do with the gas? Crack it on, roll it on, hold it neutral, maintenance throttle, wait for the apex to roll on? How does this affect the stability of the bike?

Misti

Crack it on.
Posted via Mobile Device

[fikshunn]

Twist of the Wrist II, Read the book, buy the dvd, learn!

Throttle Control Rule #1
Once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly through out the remainder of the turn.

Teaser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAeFrk7CU_w

[kkim]

Originally Posted by fikshunn

Twist of the Wrist II, Read the book, buy the dvd, learn!

Throttle Control Rule #1
Once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly through out the remainder of the turn.

Teaser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAeFrk7CU_w

bwahahaha... guess you don't know who the OP is?

[fikshunn]

Originally Posted by kkim

bwahahaha... guess you don't know who the OP is?

Nope. Just putting my 2c in on the question at hand! Plenty of guests browse the forums for advice, someone can learn a thing or two from reading the book.

After you mentioned it, I did see she is an all-star rider that is quizzing the forum?

[Flashmonkey]

I ride mostly on busy streets....so my answer is: it depends.

If it's a corner I'm taking slow due to traffic, debris, or because I have to stop almost immediately after the turn, I'll ride the turn with steady maintenance throttle and let the turn slow me down naturally.

Any other time I'm rolling on, either slowly throughout, or progressively more aggressive depending on how froggy I'm feeling that day.

The bike seems to like it best when I'm accelerating through the turn. The harder the better. Mind you my turning skill sucks, so accelerating "hard" for me isn't saying much.

[JeffM]

I'll take a crack at it . Start to sneak the throttle on as you apex the a turn and start to lift the bike up. Roll on throttle progressively from that point. One thing for sure, if you chop the throttle, after the apex, you destabilize the bike by overloading the front wheel and unloading the rear. Throttle picks up the chassis slightly and balances the bike between the front and rear.

Close?

Jeff

[ally99]

Roll on smoothly as soon as possible in the corner. This is of most importance when lean angle is greatest and on or near the edge of traction, but is a good habit to develop even when not.
The bike is much more stable while on the throttle. I typically start a slow, smooth roll-on as soon as my lean is set and really open it up when I can gauge and see through the corner.
Well? B+ answer?

[JMcDonald]

I never crack the throttle unless I am going in a strait line and trying to get around traffic. During a turn, it's always a roll, usually starting somewhere after the apex, with the maintenance throttle before. But on the streets, I try to avoid being so close to the limits that a little throttle manipulation ("is that grass on the road up there? better slow down a bit and get the bike more upright") won't put me on my butt.

And sneaky sneaky, Misti .

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Misti

Once you enter a corner what do you do with the gas?

On our 250? Hold it at 100% like the rest of the lap.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Smooth in the groove, crack will put me on my back. Seriously on the 600 (street riding) I find it really feels stable and likes a smooth roll on just prior to the apex. Possibly because I am braking extra hard entering the turn (the ABS makes it so easy to grab a ton of brakes prior to turning in).

Putting it back to you Misti, since Keith Code has determined the S1000RR the best training bike ever, do you see riders now coming into corners much faster and then braking much harder than they would due to the ABS? Also do you see them getting on the gas sooner and harder due to the traction control on those bikes?

[JeffM]

on our 250? Hold it at 100% like the rest of the lap.

lol

[rockNroll]

Only two choices? I'm usually still on the brakes as I enter a corner.

[Havok]

Usually I set my speed and gear just before entering a turn so I am at my entry speed when I start my turn. Push the right bar as I enter (talking about a right turn) to start my lean and and give a tad bit of throttle to maintain. As I enter the apex of the turn I start to roll on the throttle so as I come out if the apex I am in re powerband start to straighten up as I gas it. I can't say I remember backing off the throttle on any turn and if I end up comming in to hot I just nut up push the bar a bit more and hold the turn and trust the bike will hold. If I come in so omfg going to crash into the side of the mountain as I hit a turn I keep the bike straight emergency slow/stop tecnique then gas and start my turn a bit late.


I am not sure if I am doing it right though so please offer feedback.

I like this misti perso. Like our own private tutor!

[JeffM]

I like this misti perso. Like our own private tutor!

Misti-



-has skills. Hope she sticks around.

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by Havok

I like this misti perso. Like our own private tutor!

Where has she done tutoring here? I really would like to read it. All she's done for me is make me feel self conscious about everything I say :P .

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Where has she done tutoring here? I really would like to read it. All she's done for me is make me feel self conscious about everything I say :P .

That's what tutors do! Make you feel dumb and such. Back when I was a tutor that was my specialty!

[Havok]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Where has she done tutoring here? I really would like to read it. All she's done for me is make me feel self conscious about everything I say :P .

How about pot stirrer then lol.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by austexjg

Are we talking on track or on road?

Road: roll on at about the apex
Track: Faster "roll on", almost a crack, at the point that I start to turn in at

The bike is designed to be weight proportioned during acceleration, so during acceleration the bike is at its' most stable.

Either track or road

I agree that during acceleration the bike is at its most stable. A lot of people have said that the bike feels more stable when they are rolling on the gas and that being twitchy with the throttle or rolling it off mid corner will make the bike feel unstable.

As you said it has to do with the weight proportion. When you roll on the gas you are transferring some of the weight off the front and moving it towards the back. This puts the bike in the sweet spot so the suspension can work more effectively.

With this being said, wouldn't the goal always be to get the bike to be stable as soon as possible? What would be the reason why you would wait for the apex to roll on the gas when riding on the road? Wouldn't you want the bike to be stable as soon as you turn in?

Misti

[spooph]

I can think of one reason you don't want the bike "stable" in a corner on the road. Assuming that a road rider is staying safe and at reasonable speeds on the road, once you're locked into a turn at full-tilt, like on the track, the ability to change the bike's direction significantly is diminished. Too little traction available.

However, on the street, rarely should one be this locked and committed to a corner, simply for the sake that one would be grossly illegal. The other reason why I say the bike should be slightly "unstable" on the street, is so that the turn can be changed as is needed, to miss a pothole, to miss a car, well, I guess, to miss any hazard that might be in the road, sand, etc, etc. Having a more unstable bike, in my mind anyway, means having a more maneuverable bike, and that's kind of important on the road.

Thus, once one is at the Apex, and can see that the exit is clear and safe, one can then completely commit to that corner by rolling on the throttle as fast as you feel the rear tire will hold.

What say you Misti?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Roll on smoothly as soon as possible in the corner. This is of most importance when lean angle is greatest and on or near the edge of traction, but is a good habit to develop even when not.
The bike is much more stable while on the throttle. I typically start a slow, smooth roll-on as soon as my lean is set and really open it up when I can gauge and see through the corner.
Well? B+ answer?

I'd say this is more of an A+ answer than an B+ This is what I was getting at in my last question (the reply to one of the other posts). It is about the timing of the roll on....a lot of people say that you should wait until the apex to start rolling on the gas but if the benefit of rolling on the gas is stabilizing the bike then I wonder why you would wait. Wouldn't you want to roll it on as you said, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Smooth in the groove, crack will put me on my back. Seriously on the 600 (street riding) I find it really feels stable and likes a smooth roll on just prior to the apex. Possibly because I am braking extra hard entering the turn (the ABS makes it so easy to grab a ton of brakes prior to turning in).

Putting it back to you Misti, since Keith Code has determined the S1000RR the best training bike ever, do you see riders now coming into corners much faster and then braking much harder than they would due to the ABS? Also do you see them getting on the gas sooner and harder due to the traction control on those bikes?

I can't answer from personal experience as I haven't actually coached at a school this year with the BMW's, I'm heading to Vegas in November to coach so I'll have a better idea then.

That being said, I'm sure that the ABS inspires more confidence in the braking and students may feel more comfortable trying to go into a corner faster and braking harder. However, at the school several our sessions start out with NO BRAKING and light brakes so there is more emphasis on gauging correct entry speed and working on other skills, like throttle control.

Similarly, I'm sure that the traction control gives students more confidence when learning to roll on the gas and they may feel more comfortable rolling on harder than if they were on a different bike. But we do want the students to be smooth with their entries and with rolling on the gas so we would be on the look out for ones that are "charging" the turns and coming in too fast, braking too hard, being late with getting back on the gas and with trying to make up for lost time by hammering back on the throttle.

Did that answer the question?

Cheers!

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

I can think of one reason you don't want the bike "stable" in a corner on the road. Assuming that a road rider is staying safe and at reasonable speeds on the road, once you're locked into a turn at full-tilt, like on the track, the ability to change the bike's direction significantly is diminished. Too little traction available.

However, on the street, rarely should one be this locked and committed to a corner, simply for the sake that one would be grossly illegal. The other reason why I say the bike should be slightly "unstable" on the street, is so that the turn can be changed as is needed, to miss a pothole, to miss a car, well, I guess, to miss any hazard that might be in the road, sand, etc, etc. Having a more unstable bike, in my mind anyway, means having a more maneuverable bike, and that's kind of important on the road.

Thus, once one is at the Apex, and can see that the exit is clear and safe, one can then completely commit to that corner by rolling on the throttle as fast as you feel the rear tire will hold.

What say you Misti?

I say that having a stable bike on the road has nothing to do with being "locked and committed to a corner" in ways that are unsafe or that would not allow you to change direction should you need to avoid a pothole or something sudden in the middle of the corner.

I think there is a misunderstanding of HOW MUCH throttle it takes to make a stable bike. We are not talking about rolling on the gas so hard or so much that you are hauling ass through the corner, we are just talking about enough of a roll on to put the suspension in the correct range.

How much roll on do you need in order to get your bike "stable?"

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Roll on smoothly as soon as possible in the corner. This is of most importance when lean angle is greatest and on or near the edge of traction, but is a good habit to develop even when not.
The bike is much more stable while on the throttle. I typically start a slow, smooth roll-on as soon as my lean is set and really open it up when I can gauge and see through the corner.
Well? B+ answer?

I'd say this is more of an A+ answer than an B+ This is what I was getting at in my last question (the reply to one of the other posts). It is about the timing of the roll on....a lot of people say that you should wait until the apex to start rolling on the gas but if the benefit of rolling on the gas is stabilizing the bike then I wonder why you would wait. Wouldn't you want to roll it on as you said, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Smooth in the groove, crack will put me on my back. Seriously on the 600 (street riding) I find it really feels stable and likes a smooth roll on just prior to the apex. Possibly because I am braking extra hard entering the turn (the ABS makes it so easy to grab a ton of brakes prior to turning in).

Putting it back to you Misti, since Keith Code has determined the S1000RR the best training bike ever, do you see riders now coming into corners much faster and then braking much harder than they would due to the ABS? Also do you see them getting on the gas sooner and harder due to the traction control on those bikes?

I can't answer from personal experience as I haven't actually coached at a school this year with the BMW's, I'm heading to Vegas in November to coach so I'll have a better idea then.

That being said, I'm sure that the ABS inspires more confidence in the braking and students may feel more comfortable trying to go into a corner faster and braking harder. However, at the school several our sessions start out with NO BRAKING and light brakes so there is more emphasis on gauging correct entry speed and working on other skills, like throttle control.

Similarly, I'm sure that the traction control gives students more confidence when learning to roll on the gas and they may feel more comfortable rolling on harder than if they were on a different bike. But we do want the students to be smooth with their entries and with rolling on the gas so we would be on the look out for ones that are "charging" the turns and coming in too fast, braking too hard, being late with getting back on the gas and with trying to make up for lost time by hammering back on the throttle.

Did that answer the question?

Cheers!

Misti

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

I'd say this is more of an A+ answer than an B+ This is what I was getting at in my last question (the reply to one of the other posts). It is about the timing of the roll on....a lot of people say that you should wait until the apex to start rolling on the gas but if the benefit of rolling on the gas is stabilizing the bike then I wonder why you would wait. Wouldn't you want to roll it on as you said, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?

Misti, you are awesome! :-) I'm so glad you're here! It's good to make us all think through and even question our practices. That's how people improve at absolutely anything in life.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Misti

I'd say this is more of an A+ answer than an B+ This is what I was getting at in my last question (the reply to one of the other posts). It is about the timing of the roll on....a lot of people say that you should wait until the apex to start rolling on the gas but if the benefit of rolling on the gas is stabilizing the bike then I wonder why you would wait. Wouldn't you want to roll it on as you said, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?



I can't answer from personal experience as I haven't actually coached at a school this year with the BMW's, I'm heading to Vegas in November to coach so I'll have a better idea then.

That being said, I'm sure that the ABS inspires more confidence in the braking and students may feel more comfortable trying to go into a corner faster and braking harder. However, at the school several our sessions start out with NO BRAKING and light brakes so there is more emphasis on gauging correct entry speed and working on other skills, like throttle control.

Similarly, I'm sure that the traction control gives students more confidence when learning to roll on the gas and they may feel more comfortable rolling on harder than if they were on a different bike. But we do want the students to be smooth with their entries and with rolling on the gas so we would be on the look out for ones that are "charging" the turns and coming in too fast, braking too hard, being late with getting back on the gas and with trying to make up for lost time by hammering back on the throttle.

Did that answer the question?

Cheers!

Misti

Thanks, I think so. I kind of equate it to my driving a car with ABS all these years, but starting on a car wtih 4 wheel DRUM brakes, I could still jump in a non ABS car and stop safely in different conditions. On the other hand my daughter has never driven a non ABS car would be in for a surprise stopping quickly in the rain or sand.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by Misti

I say that having a stable bike on the road has nothing to do with being "locked and committed to a corner" in ways that are unsafe or that would not allow you to change direction should you need to avoid a pothole or something sudden in the middle of the corner.

I think there is a misunderstanding of HOW MUCH throttle it takes to make a stable bike. We are not talking about rolling on the gas so hard or so much that you are hauling ass through the corner, we are just talking about enough of a roll on to put the suspension in the correct range.

How much roll on do you need in order to get your bike "stable?"

Misti

Right oh. How much roll on? Just a wee-bit. In my experience, any positive input to the throttle can stabilize the bike. Whatever is necessary to put the bike into a "neutral" stance. no?

[KURT]

Originally Posted by Misti

I'd say this is more of an A+ answer than an B+ Misti

You're just agreeing with her, 'cause she's a girl!

How's that for school-yard logic?

Welcome to the site, I love the racing photos of 250's.

[JeffM]

I believe what Misti is getting at is that you should be using the brakes or the throttle all the time. It is a dynamic thing, this motorcycle riding, no?

Of course, each situation, track or street places different demands on the rider. But either way it is all the same. Get all your braking done then crack, sneak, roll, or tickle that throttle to keep the bike stable. Adjust as you go.

It is that transition to throttle from brake that separates the women from the girls, so to speak. In Nick Ienatsch's book, Sport Riding Techniques, Nick talks about how the fastest riders in the world have the slowest hands and the ability to just make the tiniest movements of the throttle to adjust bike speed and stability. He mentions imagining stretching the throttle cable a tiny bit or visualizing the opening of the throttle bodies a hair to get a picture of the small amount of throttle control that is used.

Misti is saying get on that throttle right away after slowing down, even it it is just a whisker of twist.

[Havok]

Let me ask this, let's say my entry speed for a turn is 45 mph and I roll the throttle at the apex of the turn, would it be better to enter the turn a bit slower but rather then maintenance throttle I stay on the gas a bit as I go through increasing how much gas I give it as I go through the turn, would my exit speed be faster with a more stable bike and end up going through the turn faster?

[Flashmonkey]

I think part of the reason you want to get on the throttle early is so that everything remains nice and taught (ie: the throttle cable and chain). I find that when I'm being lazy with the throttle and turning, that getting on the throttle is much more difficult because I have to take up all the slack in the throttle cable AND the chain....this results in a moment where I'm slowly turning the throttle and nothing's happening, then THWACK, the chain slack has been taken up and the bike starts accelerating again.

Having that happen mid turn sucks

[Havok]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

I think part of the reason you want to get on the throttle early is so that everything remains nice and taught (ie: the throttle cable and chain). I find that when I'm being lazy with the throttle and turning, that getting on the throttle is much more difficult because I have to take up all the slack in the throttle cable AND the chain....this results in a moment where I'm slowly turning the throttle and nothing's happening, then THWACK, the chain slack has been taken up and the bike starts accelerating again.

Having that happen mid turn sucks

So staying on the throttle as much as possible is not so much for speedand more for stability with the natural out come being a more stable bike will be a faster bike?

Don't get me wrong I am not worrie about speed right now I am more concerned with my technique then any thing. I figure speed will come naturally any way. I adke questions from all sides as it helps me understand better

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Havok

So staying on the throttle as much as possible is not so much for speedand more for stability with the natural out come being a more stable bike will be a faster bike?

Don't get me wrong I am not worrie about speed right now I am more concerned with my technique then any thing. I figure speed will come naturally any way. I adke questions from all sides as it helps me understand better

Precisely. Not so much staying on the throttle as much as possible but using it to stabilize the bike. Slow into the corner, get all your braking done, sneek on a touch of throttle to stabilize things when banked, roll on throttle as you bring the bike up out of your bank = fast out (well not fast out so much on the street ).

[Havok]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Precisely. Not so much staying on the throttle as much as possible but using it to stabilize the bike. Slow into the corner, get all your braking done, sneek on a touch of throttle to stabilize things when banked, roll on throttle as you bring the bike up out of your bank = fast out (well not fast out so much on the street ).

Got it now lol. So all I need to change is I can get on the throttle a little bit earlier. I tend to stay on it through the turn but it's maintenance throttle so a slight twist more and earlier will help me keep a bit more stable.

[TenaciousD]

Don't forget that as you lean the bike over, the rolling diameter of the tires gets smaller, which will slow the bike down. So that little bit of throttle is needed just to maintain the entry speed you selected as you entered the corner.
This is covered in Sport Riding Techniques (Nick Ienatsch) or Proficient Motorcycling (David Hough)... I can't remember which... probably both.

[JeffM]

David Hough covers it quite extensivly. Two really good books to read BTW.

[Havok]

Originally Posted by TenaciousD

Don't forget that as you lean the bike over, the rolling diameter of the tires gets smaller, which will slow the bike down. So that little bit of throttle is needed just to maintain the entry speed you selected as you entered the corner.
This is covered in Sport Riding Techniques (Nick Ienatsch) or Proficient Motorcycling (David Hough)... I can't remember which... probably both.

I am pretty sure I give it some gas as I don't seem to drop speed as I go around the turn. Though with the drop in speed due to this does the rpms go down as well? I mostly use the engine sound to determine how much gas to give during a turn to maintain my speed. so if it runs at the same rpm yet decreasing speed I will need to give a tad more throttle going in and then roll it a bit earlier.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Havok

Let me ask this, let's say my entry speed for a turn is 45 mph and I roll the throttle at the apex of the turn, would it be better to enter the turn a bit slower but rather then maintenance throttle I stay on the gas a bit as I go through increasing how much gas I give it as I go through the turn, would my exit speed be faster with a more stable bike and end up going through the turn faster?

The earlier you get on the gas, the sooner the bike will be put into the correct suspension range and the more stable it will be. Also, as Keith says in Twist II "Each moment you hesitate in cracking the gas and getting to the 40/60 weight distribution reduces your average speed through the turn, lessons control and handling and increases lap times.

He also explains, " Averaging 1.0 mph faster (60mph vs 59mph) through one short turn gives you 3/100's of a second improvement in lap time or puts you about 2.6 feet ahead of a competitor traveling 1.0 mph slower than you; that's about 1/3 bike-length." (there is more to this paragraph but I don't have time to type it all out

So yes, overall you should have a faster exit speed with a more stable bike. We often have our students work on slowing down their entry speed a bit so that they are able to get on the gas much earlier in the turn. Once they feel how much better the bike handles we get them to slowly work on increasing their entry speed so they they end up entering at the same speed that they were before but getting on the gas ASAP once the bike is turned instead of waiting until the apex.

Hope that helps!

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Precisely. Not so much staying on the throttle as much as possible but using it to stabilize the bike. Slow into the corner, get all your braking done, sneek on a touch of throttle to stabilize things when banked, roll on throttle as you bring the bike up out of your bank = fast out (well not fast out so much on the street ).

Originally Posted by Havok

Got it now lol. So all I need to change is I can get on the throttle a little bit earlier. I tend to stay on it through the turn but it's maintenance throttle so a slight twist more and earlier will help me keep a bit more stable.

Just want to clarify here WHEN exactly the throttle is rolled on...do you want to be rolling it on AS you are turning the bike or rolling it on once the bike is turned and set at the lean angle you want? Why?

Misti

[Havok]

Originally Posted by Misti

Just want to clarify here WHEN exactly the throttle is rolled on...do you want to be rolling it on AS you are turning the bike or rolling it on once the bike is turned and set at the lean angle you want? Why?

Misti

I think and I am just winging it here it would be after the lean is set and at the angle as speeding up the back tire as you are changing how much rubber is being applied to the road could cause the back tire to slip and low side? I right? Do I get a cookie or the dunce hat?