Downshifting prior to a turn

[NinjaD27]

Hello all! I am new to this wonderful site and decided to ask the experts about this one issue I've been having. This is my first bike and everything is going pretty smoothly except when/how to downshift before a turn. Let say we're traveling at 50 mph in 6th gear. You want to make a relatively sharp right turn onto another road. What is the best way to combine downshifting and braking before the turn? I made one of these turns in a higher gear and the engine definitely not happy w/ me. So what is your preference: brake to lower RPMs then downshift? is it possible to downshift while braking? or let up on the throttle a good bit, downshift, then brake? Its taking me a while to prepare to make these turns and I would love some help on improving my skills. Thanks!

[bob706]

Welcome to the forum. You should have all your braking done before the turn. You can downshift while braking just go into the turn at the appropriate gear/speed and gently throttle through the turn.

[ally99]

Here's the way I approach a corner when I know I need to downshift.
First, I set my body position where I want it so I don't have to move at all during steering. Next brake to a safe entry speed and downshift while slowing but prior to entering the corner (I want to be off the clutch before I start leaning into the corner). Then look ALL THE WAY through the corner, set my lean, and steer while rolling on the throttle to keep my suspension stable. I don't like downshifting while leaned over because my goal is to keep the bike as smooth as possible and avoid upsetting it while traction is compromised in a corner. :-) I hope this helps! :-)

[Momaru]

Originally Posted by ally99

Here's the way I approach a corner when I know I need to downshift.
First, I set my body position where I want it so I don't have to move at all during steering. Next brake to a safe entry speed and downshift while slowing but prior to entering the corner (I want to be off the clutch before I start leaning into the corner). Then look ALL THE WAY through the corner, set my lean, and steer while rolling on the throttle to keep my suspension stable. I don't like downshifting while leaned over because my goal is to keep the bike as smooth as possible and avoid upsetting it while traction is compromised in a corner. :-) I hope this helps! :-)

+1
That's pretty much textbook corner entry, and the way I try to do all mine.

[kkim]

Hi Danielle,

have you taken the MSF course?

[NinjaD27]

Thanks to all for the replies. I understand that I shouldn't be on the brakes or the clutch thru the turn, I think I just need more practice coordinating both hands and both feet! I'm sure it'll come easier with more experience

Originally Posted by kkim

Hi Danielle,

have you taken the MSF course?

And yes I took the MSF course which was helpful, but since we only really get up to 2nd or 3rd gear, I didn't really downshift before cornering b/c I was slowing using brakes only. But at higher speeds and RPMs, I'm just having an issue gauging which gear I should be in for the turn... I'm sure it's a common n00b question

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by NinjaD27

is it possible to downshift while braking?

Thats the way to do it

[Betlog]

Originally Posted by ally99

Here's the way I approach a corner when I know I need to downshift.
First, I set my body position where I want it so I don't have to move at all during steering. Next brake to a safe entry speed and downshift while slowing but prior to entering the corner (I want to be off the clutch before I start leaning into the corner). Then look ALL THE WAY through the corner, set my lean, and steer while rolling on the throttle to keep my suspension stable. I don't like downshifting while leaned over because my goal is to keep the bike as smooth as possible and avoid upsetting it while traction is compromised in a corner. :-) I hope this helps! :-)

+2

[ally99]

Originally Posted by NinjaD27

But at higher speeds and RPMs, I'm just having an issue gauging which gear I should be in for the turn... I'm sure it's a common n00b question

Yes, it's a very common question. I went from never driving a stick shift and having very little understanding of a manual transmission to riding a bike, so the gears/clutch took some getting use to, to say the least. In going into corners (particularly unfamiliar ones or corners where sight distance is severely compromised), I prefer to be in a lower gear upon entry of an so that I can make sure I am high enough in the power band to have enough smooth pull to get me through the remainder of the corner. However, when you become really familiar with particular curves and feel comfortable upping your entry speed, you can then be in a higher gear.

[NinjaD27]

Thanks for the tips everyone! I think I've been able to more specifically pinpoint my newb problem ....I think that it seems counterintuitive to be blipping the throttle for a smooth downshift while braking and holding the clutch for the downshift. I located an article from motorcyclist magazine that suggests the following sequence:
1. Gas off.
2. Brakes on.
3. Bike slows and revs come down rapidly.
4. Clutch in. Maintain consistent brake-lever pressure.
5. Blip the gas quickly on and off, usually no more than a quarter-turn. Maintain consistent brake-lever pressure.
6. During the blip, make the gear change positively and quickly. Maintain consistent brake-lever pressure.
7. Clutch out. Maintain or modulate brake-lever pressure until desired turn-entry speed is achieved.
8. Release brakes smoothly.
Again, I'm sure I'll get used to having to coordinate both hands with both feet w/ more riding, but does everyone agree that this is the easiest and safest way to slow before a turn? Or does anyone have a different method they prefer?

[Betlog]

Originally Posted by NinjaD27

Thanks for the tips everyone! I think I've been able to more specifically pinpoint my newb problem ....I think that it seems counterintuitive to be blipping the throttle for a smooth downshift while braking and holding the clutch for the downshift. I located an article from motorcyclist magazine that suggests the following sequence:
1. Gas off.
2. Brakes on.
3. Bike slows and revs come down rapidly.
4. Clutch in. Maintain consistent brake-lever pressure.
5. Blip the gas quickly on and off, usually no more than a quarter-turn. Maintain consistent brake-lever pressure.
6. During the blip, make the gear change positively and quickly. Maintain consistent brake-lever pressure.
7. Clutch out. Maintain or modulate brake-lever pressure until desired turn-entry speed is achieved.
8. Release brakes smoothly.
Again, I'm sure I'll get used to having to coordinate both hands with both feet w/ more riding, but does everyone agree that this is the easiest and safest way to slow before a turn? Or does anyone have a different method they prefer?

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to start learning rev-matching (throttle blipping on downshifts) just yet. But then again, everyone has their own learning pace.

[NinjaD27]

Originally Posted by Betlog

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to start learning rev-matching (throttle blipping on downshifts) just yet. But then again, everyone has their own learning pace.

I've been trying it out the past week or so and it really has smoothed out my downshifts ...now if I can just coordinate it with braking!

[Betlog]

Originally Posted by NinjaD27

I've been trying it out the past week or so and it really has smoothed out my downshifts ...now if I can just coordinate it with braking!

Ah yeah, good point, I shoulda clarified... I meant rev-matching with braking.

[SCREEM]

try leaving the throttle on and just quickly down shift 1 gear at a time, the bike should not engine break, you can work on throttle blips later. Once you have commited to the turn and your in the proper gear you should be able to engine break to the apex and throttle on as you exit.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by NinjaD27

I've been trying it out the past week or so and it really has smoothed out my downshifts ...now if I can just coordinate it with braking!

Start off slow. I suggest maybe try braking and downshifting/rev matching while slowing down for stoplights first. It's technically the same thing anyway...the only difference being that you don't slow down or stop fully and you initiate a turn right after....but that mental component of "initiating a turn" may be what's gumming you up a bit. Take your time and build up to it. There's no need to attempt everything all at once.

[miks]

Originally Posted by Momaru

+1
That's pretty much textbook corner entry, and the way I try to do all mine.

Same here. Took me some time to smooth out my rev-matching though

[motor32]

If you watch my video at 50 seconds you will see me go from 6th gear down to 2nd gear in short order for the turn. 45MPH down to 20MPH. Blipping for each gear will match the engine speed with the speed of the rear tire and will smooth everything out. If you don't blip the throttle you will hear your rear tire chirp, that's because the lower gear is turning at a higher RPM. You will get a good idea of what to do. Forget all the knee down stuff. Not recommended.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ericdrum]

I've never seen anyone all geared up and knee dragging around the city.

[LazinCajun]

I have one thing to add to all the good advice here.

Once you decide you're comfortable enough to try blipping, one thing that helped me smooth it out was braking with only my index and middle fingers, while holding the throttle with the ring/pinky fingers.

[NinjaD27]

Originally Posted by motor32

If you watch my video at 50 seconds you will see me go from 6th gear down to 2nd gear in short order for the turn. 45MPH down to 20MPH. Blipping for each gear will match the engine speed with the speed of the rear tire and will smooth everything out. If you don't blip the throttle you will hear your rear tire chirp, that's because the lower gear is turning at a higher RPM. You will get a good idea of what to do. Forget all the knee down stuff. Not recommended.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Thank you, this video helped a good deal! And thanks to all others with great advice. I tried downshifting and braking before red lights for a few days and it definitely helped to not worry about initiating the turn. And also the two finger trick made alot of sense and felt much more natural. The past few days I've definitely made a breakthrough with doing this before a turn. Blipping and all!

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by motor32

If you watch my video at 50 seconds you will see me go from 6th gear down to 2nd gear in short order for the turn. 45MPH down to 20MPH. Blipping for each gear will match the engine speed with the speed of the rear tire and will smooth everything out. If you don't blip the throttle you will hear your rear tire chirp, that's because the lower gear is turning at a higher RPM. You will get a good idea of what to do. Forget all the knee down stuff. Not recommended.

Nice vid! I wish I fit into Teknic stuff

[adouglas]

You can get a lot of slowing down done by downshifting and using engine braking.

Blipping/downshifting is also a lot of fun.

This scenario is very much like part of my commute.



I'm traveling northbound on the Merritt Parkway (Rt 15) and about to take exit 46. After the exit I take a right onto Jefferson St., then a left onto Easton Turnpike/59. If I'm lucky and don't catch either lights or traffic it's a blast.

For scale, the distance between the overpass and the exit ramp is about 100 yards. The map doesn't show it, but all the roads except the exit ramp itself are very wide, so I can take nice sweeping lines.

I'm usually traveling at about 60 approaching the exit. The exit lane starts just before the Rt. 59 overpass, so that's where I start slowing for the turn... just as I move out of the right lane.

I blip and shift to 5th, and let off the gas. No brake. Then the same for 4th and 3rd in fairly quick succession... maybe a second or two between shifts. I do not need to brake AT ALL to get down to 35/3rd gear or so, which is the entry speed for the exit and an appropriate gear to get through it. I could do it in 2nd at 10K if I really wanted to go fast, but 3rd suffices.

I lean in and roll on the throttle smoothly. As the bike stands up for the next right turn I blip and shift to 2nd, and touch the brakes - maybe, if needed.

The right onto Jefferson is in 2nd, then acceleration to the next turn... no brakes, I just don't accelerate to the point where they're needed. Then smooth throttle as I make the left.

So during the whole thing I barely touch the brakes at all, because the engine has done all the work for me. The bike is very settled, and I flow very smoothly through all the transitions. Feels quick, and is quick.

I also like to hang off the bike from time to time. Makes me feel all racy, though I never get anywhere close to actually dragging a knee (I think... I'm not looking down!).

ALL of the blipping/shifting/brake-if-necessary happens before you turn in. You then get established in the turn and roll on the throttle through the turn.

If you're doing it right it will feel like you're going too slowly as you approach the corner. But overall you're much faster and it's a lot more fun. You don't need to charge the corner and nail the brakes.

Braking hard upsets the bike, making you less smooth. And smooth is quick. So if you arrange your approach so you don't have to brake hard, you'll be quicker through the turn. That generally means slowing down earlier using the engine.

[wvninja]

i use blipping like its going out of style .. it takes practice but when u get it down its nice.. but at times there is still a calling for letting out on that clutch nice n easy

[austexjg]

I've been wondering how engine braking affects these motors - what components wear? I feel like the jump in RPMs and the quick release of the clutch is causing undo stress - overtime something has to give without a slipper clutch.

During a spirited ride when I first got the bike, I locked the back wheel downshifting, even with a blip (though it may have been miss timed, the blip).

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by austexjg

I've been wondering how engine braking affects these motors - what components wear? I feel like the jump in RPMs and the quick release of the clutch is causing undo stress - overtime something has to give without a slipper clutch.

During a spirited ride when I first got the bike, I locked the back wheel downshifting, even with a blip (though it may have been miss timed, the blip).

I seriously doubt you'll do real harm to anything.

You do realize that the purpose of blipping is to match RPM, right? The engine shouldn't lurch into the new gear or have the RPM zoom up as you let out the clutch. If it does you're doing it wrong... allowing the engine to slow too much before letting the clutch out. If you blip right, there is near-zero clutch wear because the clutch isn't slipping much, if at all. If you do it REALLY right, you can shift without using the clutch at all.

Slipper clutches exist to make it possible for you to downshift safely without blipping. They do this by slipping (duh), which means they wear every time you downshift without attempting to match revs. If I had a bike with a slipper clutch, I'd view it as a safety device, not as something to be used all the time.... mostly because blipping is so much fun.

I locked the rear once too... too low a gear and too quick on letting out the clutch. A slipper would have prevented that little brain fade from locking the wheel. Hasn't happened since.

Keep track of what gear you're in, pay attention to modulating the clutch and you'll be fine.