Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[greg737]

Now that's confidence... promote that man to general.

[setasai]

@flynjay Looks like a fantastic plan. If it goes according to plan I bet there are members that would pay you to do the conversion for them. I will follow you're exact plan. Using open-loop running first and then including the sensors is a great idea and perfect location to split the 2 days. I'm going with the 650 cables so that rerouting might take a little more creativity.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by flynjay

Kit install will go like this:
Remove fairings / fuel tank / battery / Carbs ....

Next day.
...
start bike.

Sounds like a plan.

However, another guy that converted his bike with the ecotrons kit said this:

Originally Posted by k12.usmc

So after a month, I have finally got her up and running, I think (just need to verify consistency)! Need to wait for the 2008 Ninja 650r throttle cable set so I can finally ride her. I have the New Ecotrons kit with OEM throttle body.

He used the OEM throttle body which means he didn't have to fool around fixing the throttle pulley and bracket. That alone will take a day or two.

In another post he said that re-using the 250 cables did not work well and left the throttle partially open.

I'm wondering if the 650 throttle body will work? Its the same thing as the 250 only bigger.

Also, k12 subsequently lowsided and said the conversion was a factor in that it seemed to have more torque than he was used to. Since he used the OEM TB, the pulley size was the same.

So my hat is off to anyone that can do the conversion in two days without using the OEM throttle body. But if you do, please remember to post plenty of photos and videos to help the rest of us slugs figure it out.

[flynjay]

He used the OEM throttle body which means he didn't have to fool around fixing the throttle pulley and bracket. That alone will take a day or two.

The OEM throttle body places the throttle linkages on the left side of the bike. Forbitel has already intsalled the ecotrons throttle body with the linkages on the right side with no issues. So I think I am OK there.

In another post he said that re-using the 250 cables did not work well and left the throttle partially open.

Reusing the stock cables with the connections on the right would leave the cable too tight and make it not close all the way. Hense the use of 650 cables.

I'm wondering if the 650 throttle body will work? Its the same thing as the 250 only bigger.

I believe the 650 throttle body is too large for the 250 and low rpm performance will be horrible and possibly unridable.

Also, k12 subsequently lowsided and said the conversion was a factor in that it seemed to have more torque than he was used to. Since he used the OEM TB, the pulley size was the same.

k12 and forbitel both stated a noticable torque difference after installation of the kit. k12 was simply riding the bike as he had before and put too much power down when turning. Yes the throttle travel is reduced but, I don't see that as a negative. Taking it easy at first and treating the bike as if it is completely new to you should be able to overcome the torque and throttle response differences.

So my hat is off to anyone that can do the conversion in two days without using the OEM throttle body. But if you do, please remember to post plenty of photos and videos to help the rest of us slugs figure it out.

Hopefully everything will go to plan, but it may not and I am prepared for that. I will try to post pics of the install, at the very least where and how I ended up mounting everything.

[flynjay]

One question I do have is where to mount the ecotrons ecu?

I am thinking either behind the battery, or where the stock CDI is.

@greg737 any ideas since you have the pregen?

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Sounds like a plan.

However, another guy that converted his bike with the ecotrons kit said this:



He used the OEM throttle body which means he didn't have to fool around fixing the throttle pulley and bracket. That alone will take a day or two.

In another post he said that re-using the 250 cables did not work well and left the throttle partially open.

I'm wondering if the 650 throttle body will work? Its the same thing as the 250 only bigger.

Also, k12 subsequently lowsided and said the conversion was a factor in that it seemed to have more torque than he was used to. Since he used the OEM TB, the pulley size was the same.

So my hat is off to anyone that can do the conversion in two days without using the OEM throttle body. But if you do, please remember to post plenty of photos and videos to help the rest of us slugs figure it out.

Yea give me a day. I already have a guy ready to weld my header same day. and i already got everything off the bike. so i say a day. keep u guys posted

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Yea give me a day. I already have a guy ready to weld my header same day. and i already got everything off the bike. so i say a day. keep u guys posted

The weather is too nice here for that. If I know the kit will get here Friday or Saturday (through tracking info), Then I will do disassembly Friday night. Otherwise, disassembly is waiting until kit is in hand.

good luck EMSRacer we are all counting on you!

Do you have a new-gen or pre-gen?

Have you thought about cable routing?
I'm thinking of routing the engine temperature sensor and o2 sensors up through the backbone along the stock harness. I would like the LED for the kit to be up in the instrument cluster, but I think that will be a further modificaiton to the kit. I will probably end up cutting it off, extending the cables to reach the instrument cluster and using a connector for final install.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by flynjay

The weather is too nice here for that. If I know the kit will get here Friday or Saturday (through tracking info), Then I will do disassembly Friday night. Otherwise, disassembly is waiting until kit is in hand.

good luck EMSRacer we are all counting on you!

Do you have a new-gen or pre-gen?

Have you thought about cable routing?
I'm thinking of routing the engine temperature sensor and o2 sensors up through the backbone along the stock harness. I would like the LED for the kit to be up in the instrument cluster, but I think that will be a further modificaiton to the kit. I will probably end up cutting it off, extending the cables to reach the instrument cluster and using a connector for final install.

Pre-gen. and yeah im already cleaning up the wiring from last night (wire tuck a bit). with airbox, carbs and battery out makes things easier to clean up. And for now im going to install TB upside down and stock cables. Ill see how that goes with stock cables. doesnt seem like an issue. i rather it be straight through than on the other side of the bike and possibly bent. Plus i didnt want to spend too much over what i paid for the kit :P

Where is everyone going to install their ECUs at?

[n4mwd]

K12 had an OEM throttle body so his throttle pulley had the same diameter as the stock carbs. So the throttle twist is the same. The ecotrons pulley is a little smaller. So that means more torque with less twist. We should all take that as a warning when we go out for that first ride.

As far as the ECU, as long as it isn't too big, I plan to mount it in place of the CDI. Supposedly it just bolts in anyway. Not much discussion so far about the new ECU and how big it is.

I got a tracking number, but it says that mine hasn't shipped yet.

[EMSRacer07]

my status says it was just recieved so its priority so might be friday or sat depending.
And i guess where the old CDI would be a good spot.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Where is everyone going to install their ECUs at?

I'm thinking either of the two locations below:
1. Where the stock CDI is (will probably have to remove the tabs).
2. Behind the battery attached to the wheel cover.

[ecotrons]

Guys,

It's been too busy for me as the beginnning of the year. Sorry if I missed any questions.

Here is a suggestion to the pre-gen owners:

Buy a pair of new-gen carb boots (Ebay) to replace the pre-gen carb boots.
Below is a picture, you can see the pre-gen boots are longer. It may affect your high-end performance (theoretically).

For now, we included 2 sets of rubber tubes, one long, one short, as the adaptors for 3 pre-gen owners. So you can try both.

[greg737]

I'm thinking either of the two locations below:
1. Where the stock CDI is (will probably have to remove the tabs).
2. Behind the battery attached to the wheel cover.

I went with choice #3 (none of the above).

I have my Microsquirt ECU located in the tail section of the bike. There's a nice bit of room in the tail fairing enclosure just behind the end of the seat and in front of (or behind, it depends on how you look at it) the taillights. If you look over at my avatar picture the Microsquirt ECU is right under where the passenger grab-handle sticks up.

If you go to the video of my installation and go to 11:00 minutes into it you'll see my location and wire routing.

Link to original page on YouTube.

I installed it there because I didn't want to lose the ability to carry around the OEM toolkit in it's "factory" position behind the battery. So the Microsquirt is up in the tail, held in place by some industrial-strength velcro. Over a year of riding it seems like a good enough spot because it never gets wet there even on really rainy days.

But installing the Ecotrons ECU in place of the original Ignitor Box sounds great to me. And it makes good sense to use that space if the Ecotrons ECU is small enough to fit. I haven't ruled out moving my Microsquirt to that postion once I move ignition control over to the Microsquirt and don't need the OEM ignitor box any more.

On my 2005 Old-gen bike the OEM Ignitor Box is stuffed into a soft-ish rubber collar that that wraps completely around it and this collar mounts to the plastic of the rear fender by being pressed onto two plastic "fingers" that stick out off the fender (they are part of the rear fender's molding). If you go to 9:20 in my video you can freeze the frame and see what I'm talking about.

I'm guessing the Ecotrons ECU box is probably a bit larger than the OEM Ignitor box so it probably won't fit into the OEM box's rubber collar.

So without the rubber collar the two plastic fingers that stick off the rear fender and slot into the collar are useless (and probably will be in the way of the larger Ecotrons box). In the end you might have to cut off one or maybe even both of these rear fender mounting fingers to get the Ecotrons box to lay flat against the fender. Although I would thoroughly evaluate the situation for the potential to keep on of them to help in mounting the Ecotrons Box.

[ecotrons]

ECU location: anywhere you can find, because the harness is long enough.
One location is the rear of the bike, just below the rear seat. I think Greg used that location.

[flynjay]

Great write-up @greg737.

I did not know the tool kit went behind the battery. Does it just sit in there or is there something holding it in? I have been just stuffing it in the rear compartment.

I agree that the CDI location seems like the best. It allows for the serial and performance switch to route to the rear compartment as well as access to the front of the bike for the rest of the harness.

Probably will have to remove one or both of the original tabs. I planned on drilling through the fender and mounting with standoffs. Or I could do like you did and just velcro it on. The industrial strength velcro has some serious holding power.

[greg737]

I did not know the tool kit went behind the battery. Does it just sit in there or is there something holding it in? I have been just stuffing it in the rear compartment.

My 2005 came from its prior owner with the OEM toolkit riding in a nice little black plastic tray that fits perfectly on that little "knee" of rear fender plastic behind the battery enclosure. This is obviously the way it came from the factory. It fits snugly between the fender and the battery enclosure (which is actually an extension of the airbox, a single moulding of really hard plastic). And the underside of the seat seals the deal when it's on so the toolkit or anything else you put in the tray can't bounce around.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

My 2005 came from its prior owner with the OEM toolkit riding in a nice little black plastic tray that fits perfectly on that little "knee" of rear fender plastic behind the battery enclosure. This is obviously the way it came from the factory. It fits snugly between the fender and the battery enclosure (which is actually an extension of the airbox, a single moulding of really hard plastic). And the underside of the seat seals the deal when it's on so the toolkit or anything else you put in the tray can't bounce around.

Greg is correct. The plastic tool box goes behind the battery and is held in place by gravity. The vinyl tool pouch goes inside that.

[greg737]

The picture of all the tools laid out in a nice little row makes me laugh.

The reason is the philips head screwdriver (down at the very bottom). It's supposed to have a black plastic handle on it but the plastic is so cheap and brittle it crumbles in your hand the first time you try to turn a screw with it.

So whenever you see a set of Ninja tools the philips head screwdriver is always missing its handle.

When mine self-destructed during a bit of remote, roadside emergency maintenance I just grabbed the small pliers from the kit and used them to turn the screwdriver shaft.

[n4mwd]

That's a stock image. Mine still has the handle and pliers.

I just ordered the newgen boots. I think it will give more room for the other stuff that has to go in there.

PS - My kit has now been shipped according to the tracking info.

[flynjay]

I don't have that plastic tray.

I think I will be using the longer boots. My theory is that it will give a little more space for the throttle cable.

[n4mwd]

The tray in the photo is for sale on ebay.

Regarding the fuel pump, does anybody know where the power to run it comes from? Is it supplied by the ECU or does it go straight to the battery?

It would make sense to have the ECU power it because it would need to turn it off if the bike is laid down or if the bike isn't started immediately after the ignition is switched on.

On the Honda CBR250 the fuel pump comes on for about 2 seconds after the key is turned on and stays off until the engine is started. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with how other bikes do it.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The tray in the photo is for sale on ebay.

Regarding the fuel pump, does anybody know where the power to run it comes from? Is it supplied by the ECU or does it go straight to the battery?

It would make sense to have the ECU power it because it would need to turn it off if the bike is laid down or if the bike isn't started immediately after the ignition is switched on.

On the Honda CBR250 the fuel pump comes on for about 2 seconds after the key is turned on and stays off until the engine is started. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with how other bikes do it.

I certainly know: the power comes from 12v battery, via a Relay controlled by ECU. ECU does not like to have that big current running through itself (too much heat). That's why we need a relay. That's how every car fuel injection system works, relays are everywhere.

Yes, Ecotrons fuel pump will come on for 2-4s after key on. It is actually calibratable depending on your total volume of high pressure fuel hose.

Don't worry, we have you covered for these details, you just need to make sure the system is installed right.

[Shoeprotector.net]

hey guys i decided not to EFI my ninja, i got my kit from ecotrons. Anyone interested in it? PM me.

btw I have a 2010

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Shoeprotector.net

hey guys i decided not to EFI my ninja, i got my kit from ecotrons. Anyone interested in it? PM me.

btw I have a 2010

What was your reason for not doing the conversion?

[Shoeprotector.net]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

What was your reason for not doing the conversion?

i didn't like how the throttle body sits upside down without the a new throttle cable, plus its a lot of work.

[EMSRacer07]

well the whole discussion from ^^^^^ is all about using the 650 cables and turning it right side up. Either way the install looks like cake. Its really just install TBs and hook everything up and plug things in. Ur choice though

[flynjay]

It all really depends on what "alot of work" means to you.

To me "alot of work" is complete engine rebuild (if you had to do a rebore).
To some people an oil change or a valve adjust is "alot of work".

[greg737]

Originally Posted by flynjay

It all really depends on what "alot of work" means to you.

To me "alot of work" is complete engine rebuild (if you had to do a rebore).
To some people an oil change or a valve adjust is "alot of work".

Or... maybe it depends on what "fun" means to you.

My FI conversion project was lots of fun.

[setasai]

Heh I'm excited too! I'm still pondering about the 650R throttle cables. It doesnt have the adjustment nuts on the throttlebody side. Only that plastic adjustment which already cracked on my 250. Why plastic kawasaki... why plastic... sigh.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by greg737

Or... maybe it depends on what "fun" means to you.

My FI conversion project was lots of fun.

I hear ya on that. I bought my bike as a project. I've been able to learn alot about bikes and specifically how the ninja 250 works.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

well the whole discussion from ^^^^^ is all about using the 650 cables and turning it right side up. Either way the install looks like cake. Its really just install TBs and hook everything up and plug things in. Ur choice though

I doubt it. The throttle pulley and cable clamps have me pretty worried, but not scared off. Even if I had the OEM TB, its still required to remove, weld, paint and replace the exhaust manifold. There have been several people complain that the exhaust manifold bolts broke off in the engine requiring a lot of effort to get them out. I am worried about that too.

BTW, I got a quote for re-chroming the exhaust manifolds and its $250. I think I'll just cheap out and use hi-temp paint. I have to do something because the previous owner mistreated the bike and made it stay outside in the rain. Hence the manifold is rusted on the left side. (How can anybody do that to their kids? ) If I plate the thing myself, its still a huge amount of chemicals to buy due to the odd shape of the thing.

And most of all I'm worried that the process will take too long and I'll go into withdrawal. Yes, my name is n4mwd and I'm a riding addict. If my bike is unridable, it means I have to take the car.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I doubt it. The throttle pulley and cable clamps have me pretty worried, but not scared off. Even if I had the OEM TB, its still required to remove, weld, paint and replace the exhaust manifold. There have been several people complain that the exhaust manifold bolts broke off in the engine requiring a lot of effort to get them out. I am worried about that too.
BTW, I got a quote for re-chroming the exhaust manifolds and its $250. I think I'll just cheap out and use hi-temp paint. I have to do something because the previous owner mistreated the bike and made it stay outside in the rain. Hence the manifold is rusted on the left side. (How can anybody do that to their kids? ) If I plate the thing myself, its still a huge amount of chemicals to buy due to the odd shape of the thing.

And most of all I'm worried that the process will take too long and I'll go into withdrawal. Yes, my name is n4mwd and I'm a riding addict. If my bike is unridable, it means I have to take the car.

I got the exhuast done, welded, painted and off and back on already. they didnt stick for me came out very nice helps to have the mufflers off though

[n4mwd]

How did you do the welding without the bungs? Did your kit come already? Mine says its stuck on Romulus.

[Daves2JZ]

Lol this thred just cracks me up. I love it.

List of work to do to the wife's bike

New parts
EFI kit
Area P race exhaust
Pod filters
Fuel gage sender unit
Chain and gears
Maybe cables but won't make a desition eater way till I can se the TB on the bike


Work
Install all parts do a valve check since its not much more work with the bike all apart and weld her bungs on

Should be a fun day once all the parts are here. Maybe end of next week

[GlassAnkles]

did i miss this group buy? im about to pick up a 250r to replace my tw200, need a new around town toy bike

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

And most of all I'm worried that the process will take too long and I'll go into withdrawal. Yes, my name is n4mwd and I'm a riding addict. If my bike is unridable, it means I have to take the car.

You need another bike man, as do I

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

You need another bike man, as do I

Same here my bike is my daily driver.
I would hate for it to be down any length of time.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

You need another bike man, as do I

What about deathproof? Could you ride it while your main bike is down? I have actually been looking at another Ninja and I went to the dealer and he let me sit on a ZX-10. The ZX series are supersports and have an uncomfortable riding posture. I think if I go to a bigger bike its going to be a 650 which has similar riding posture to the newgen. I emailed a guy selling a pregen cheap but he hasn't replied so either its sold or he's an idiot. Maybe both.

The tracking info says that my EFI kit has left Romulus and is now back on Earth and should be delivered today.

[Ninja_Moose]

Got something in the mail today

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Moose

Got something in the mail today

Mine should be here any minute. That new ECU looks huge. Looks like 5"x7" not counting the dog ears. Mounting may be more of a problem that I thought. The only problem I see in the photo is the clear fuel line. It doesn't look like its the alcohol resistant kind. Does it say anything on it about being alcohol resistant? Given that fuel down here is 10% ethanol, it would be a good thing if it was.