DIY EFI KIT for our 250r

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Assuming EI means "Electronic Ignition", yes, the stock connectors have been already included in the harness of this EFI kit. Forbitel has done that already. For pre-gens, we also have stock connectors! No more cut and splice wires for pickups.

Matt

Great! I really can't wait to get my kit. I wish the GB would go faster!

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by flynjay

Great! I really can't wait to get my kit. I wish the GB would go faster!

Maybe you should recruit some more people then!

[Jack Frost]

so this kit will now do spark also? is the CDI unit and wiring to the coil included?

[ecotrons]

No CDI unit any more. The ECU is all-in-one, controls the stock coils directly. See Forbitel's post.

[Jack Frost]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

No CDI unit any more. The ECU is all-in-one, controls the stock coils directly. See Forbitel's post.

so all it needs from the motor is an input from the pickup and a power wire and ground for the most part and it controls, fuel and spark? so none of the factory ignition will be needed any longer?

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Maybe you should recruit some more people then!

Don't think I'm not trying

[setasai]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

No CDI unit any more. The ECU is all-in-one, controls the stock coils directly. See Forbitel's post.

This really is an advantage. The alternative if you have CDI fluctuations like I do is get the sportisimoto BRT for $200 non-programmable or $300 for the programmable.
http://www.sportisimoto-usa.com/ignition.php

Soooo if you think about it... for those of us with CDI issues, EFI is a great idea. I was going to swap out the CDI with an old pregen version but that would have cost anywhere from $80-$100+ and the fact that it required work, this will probably yield a better end result.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Jack Frost

so all it needs from the motor is an input from the pickup and a power wire and ground for the most part and it controls, fuel and spark? so none of the factory ignition will be needed any longer?

yes, pretty much it is. And the fuel, spark maps are all programmable, if you like to play with it.
And if you add some more performance parts, and you can tune everything if you are handy.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by setasai

This really is an advantage. The alternative if you have CDI fluctuations like I do is get the sportisimoto BRT for $200 non-programmable or $300 for the programmable.
http://www.sportisimoto-usa.com/ignition.php

Soooo if you think about it... for those of us with CDI issues, EFI is a great idea. I was going to swap out the CDI with an old pregen version but that would have cost anywhere from $80-$100+ and the fact that it required work, this will probably yield a better end result.

Immunology. Really? Are you sure it's not Used Cars?

[setasai]

Originally Posted by greg737

Immunology. Really? Are you sure it's not Used Cars?

whaaaaaaaa?????

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Jack Frost

so all it needs from the motor is an input from the pickup and a power wire and ground for the most part and it controls, fuel and spark? so none of the factory ignition will be needed any longer?

Here are some pictures for the harnesses, both Pre-Gen and later models. You can see that there are no more loose wires. All wires are PNP (all connectors are mated, and error-proof, meaning, you can not plug TPS sensor to MAP harness, for example; except the dual connectors like the 2 for injectors/O2 sensors, and those are labelled.)

[Nemesis]

Anyone in Socal gonna get this so I can test ride your bike?

[Daves2JZ]

Yes

[choneofakind]

Looks like this kit is coming along nicely. Kudos to Ecotrons for that. Looking forward to seeing how the new additions to this kit work out for the GB members.

[Daves2JZ]

Side note. Rather then plugging the vac port on the number 2 TB I'd suggest using a T in the line to the MAP sencere. The problem with the system as you have it is that the sencere will have a true pulsation effect. Normally the vac signal would be places in the intake plenum (witch we dont have) after the TB giving you a true constent mesument of manifold pressure of the system not just one of the cylinders in the system. The way you have it now only when the one cyclender Is sucking in will it produce vacumed. If T ed into the second cylinder then the pulsation will be minimized since the cylinders intake stroke is offset from each other.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Daves2JZ

Side note. Rather then plugging the vac port on the number 2 TB I'd suggest using a T in the line to the MAP sencere. The problem with the system as you have it is that the sencere will have a true pulsation effect. Normally the vac signal would be places in the intake plenum (witch we dont have) after the TB giving you a true constent mesument of manifold pressure of the system not just one of the cylinders in the system. The way you have it now only when the one cyclender Is sucking in will it produce vacumed. If T ed into the second cylinder then the pulsation will be minimized since the cylinders intake stroke is offset from each other.

Thanks, Daves2JZ!
This is really a good one, very knowledgeable, even though not applicable to our system.

Our system uses the pulsations instead of smoothening it. Why? to accurately measure the vacuum. This is truely the key for small engine controls, only by knowing the characteristics of pulsations can you measure the air charge exactly into the cyliner.
True, it only measures the 1st cylinder, but that is better than the average of the whole intake stroke. That is the advantage of our EFI to others like Megasquirt. The vacuum to the 2nd cylinder will be adjusted by O2 feedback.

Plus, the pulsations tell us the phase info of the 4-strokes, making our EFI full sequential! no waste sparks, no double fuel injections!
For this engine, running at 14000RPM, without the full sequential, good luck!

[Daves2JZ]

Good to know! I come from the car world. Forced induction is my game bean tuning supras and others for years.

[greg737]

Plus, the pulsations tell us the phase info of the 4-strokes, making our EFI full sequential! no waste sparks, no double fuel injections!
For this engine, running at 14000RPM, without the full sequential, good luck!

Matt,

All I can say is wow, you keep impressing me with your Ecotrons setup.

As you know I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of years working on fuel injecting my '05 EX-250 FI as a hobby, so when I say I'm impressed by you using the pulse-trace of a MAP sensor hooked to a single cylinder as a means of "establishing sync" for full sequential injection, I really mean it.

Up till right now when I read your response to that last post I believed that to achieve full sequential fuel injection you had to install a Hall sensor on the camshaft, and here you come and do it with the information that the MAP sensor was providing all along. Very elegant solution to an old fuel injection problem, even more impressive because it's simple.

And, yes, I see why only one cylinder is used for the MAP signal. If you know the engine's architecture (i.e. the EX-250 is a flat crank, parallel twin) then when you figure out where the cylinder with the MAP on it is in the 4-stroke cycle then you instantly know where the other cylinders will be. Very elegant solution.

Matt, would you be willing to help me out with a little information on this? I'd love to build a little stand-alone circuit for my own FI project bike that would use the a MAP signal from a single cylinder to simulate (and be used in place of) the output from a camshaft Hall sensor. Just sitting here thinking about it I've already begun to come up with ideas but could you perhaps give me a quick, basic circuit sketch that I could work from?

Greg

[Shoeprotector.net]

does anyone know how to run the ecu in open loop mode? as per in the installation directions it states that you should run the ecu in open loop b4 installing the o2 sensors on the header. Is this done via ecu settings or does this automatically happen when there is no o2 sensor plugged in?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by greg737

Matt,

All I can say is wow, you keep impressing me with your Ecotrons setup.

......

Matt, would you be willing to help me out with a little information on this? I'd love to build a little stand-alone circuit for my own FI project bike that would use the a MAP signal from a single cylinder to simulate (and be used in place of) the output from a camshaft Hall sensor. Just sitting here thinking about it I've already begun to come up with ideas but could you perhaps give me a quick, basic circuit sketch that I could work from?

Greg

Thanks Greg, I will email you some thoughts for your system.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Shoeprotector.net

does anyone know how to run the ecu in open loop mode? as per in the installation directions it states that you should run the ecu in open loop b4 installing the o2 sensors on the header. Is this done via ecu settings or does this automatically happen when there is no o2 sensor plugged in?

Simply un-plug the O2s, you run in open loop, ignore the MIL lamp though for the O2 sensor DTC code.

But for this PNP kit, you don't have to run open loop first (that's for DIY tuning engines), becausei it's already tuned. You can run close-loop immediately after installations.

If you change the intake / exhaust systems significantly, and notice over-lean or rich conditions, then you may run open-loop and tune the base fuel maps.

For guys that do track-racing and upgrade the engine with a lot of performance parts, open loop tuning is likely a must.

Matt

[bprayogo]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Hello, guys,

This is Matt from Ecotrons. I asked Sportisi / bprayogo not to release his dyno data, because his engine was not tuned with EFI. A tuned Carb version bike will have more max-power than an un-tuned EFI version. that's not surpprising.

Attached is the dyno data from Sportisi. You can see the carb bike is running at 11.5 - 12.5 AFR; while the EFI bike is at 13.5-14.5, esp. at the max power band.
It's not our intention to hide anything, only it's not a thorough comparison.
We can make bigger throttle bodies, but then it may not work for most other guys who need more than just max power.

The kit so far can be a PNP kit to a standard bike or ones with small changes. For a racing purpose 250r, with a lot of upgrades, the intensive tuning is a must to get the most out of the EFI. And EFI tuning is different than carb tuning, the initial learning efforts could be a lot, depending on users' background. Even an exprienced tuner needs to get familiar with the software user interface first.

Well I've been away quite sometime

Since you posted the dynosheet yourself, then let me explain, and underlined that WE HAVE TUNED A LOT OF NINJA250R, I Mean A LOT, hundreds! . an 8 HP Difference is A LOT for a 1-2AFR difference, if you think richening the top end to around 13.5-13.2 can make up 8 HP, then please try proving it yourself
Please dont forget that We're also a Dynojet Tuner and handled a LOT of EFI bike from 150cc to 1800cc harleys

and up to now theres no more update about the throttle body you promised to make.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by bprayogo

Well I've been away quite sometime

Since you posted the dynosheet yourself, then let me explain, and underlined that WE HAVE TUNED A LOT OF NINJA250R, I Mean A LOT, hundreds! . an 8 HP Difference is A LOT for a 1-2AFR difference, if you think richening the top end to around 13.5-13.2 can make up 8 HP, then please try proving it yourself
Please dont forget that We're also a Dynojet Tuner and handled a LOT of EFI bike from 150cc to 1800cc harleys

and up to now theres no more update about the throttle body you promised to make.

28mm throttle bodies are also used by Kawasaki OEM. That is a optimized size for most conditions.

If you think the bigger size of throttle bodies is better for your application, you can order some customer throttle bodies. There are some companies are good at that.

Our EFI can work with any size of throttle bodies suitable. You can tune it with your own throttle body. Hopefully you can handle that since you've tuned so many EFI bikes.

[bprayogo]

I cant comment on the oem efi bike since we never tuned one. Its not available yet in our country.
And i already stated that your kit is sufficient for standard day to day appkicatin, but not for fully tunedcrace bike.
And you yourself is the one promising to work on a bigger throttle body. Or did you forget? What dissapointing is you're selling these without thorough testing on your side,so the words pnp become plug n pray instead of plug n play.
EfI is better than carb, period. If not we're not spending lots of money on a dyno machine. But the dyno also tells us that some components works and others dont. And what it told about your kit i already posted earlier.

Theres a huge market here for your kit. If you can make this kit works nicely and stable, people already asking me about it. But for now i cant recommend it to anyone.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by bprayogo

I cant comment on the oem efi bike since we never tuned one. Its not available yet in our country.
And i already stated that your kit is sufficient for standard day to day appkicatin, but not for fully tunedcrace bike.
And you yourself is the one promising to work on a bigger throttle body. Or did you forget? What dissapointing is you're selling these without thorough testing on your side,so the words pnp become plug n pray instead of plug n play.
EfI is better than carb, period. If not we're not spending lots of money on a dyno machine. But the dyno also tells us that some components works and others dont. And what it told about your kit i already posted earlier.

Theres a huge market here for your kit. If you can make this kit works nicely and stable, people already asking me about it. But for now i cant recommend it to anyone.

Regarding PNP, we are getting there, and we are very close. One reason for the slow progress is that there are many model years to support. We can not test all models, some are left to customers. Even as PNP, an EFI kit has many components to "plug in", any mis-plug can cause issues. It does require some user's efforts to make sure all parts intalled correctly. We will ask the user to do some testing and data collection, if something is not right. We provide fast response and excellent service to customers as returns.

Some customers take those installations, tests, and even some tuning, as fun and exciting experiments. We welcome that. After all, the EFI conversion is suppose to bring knowledge to users.

True, bigger throttle bodies have some advantages on racing, because racers pretty much have only 2 conditions: idle or WOT. But fabricating new throttle bodies is expensive. We can do that, only it will become un-affordable for probably most people if volume is not there.

[crash666444666]

BIG QUESTION? will it work on the older model 250s as well ie 2005???

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by crash666444666

BIG QUESTION? will it work on the older model 250s as well ie 2005???

250s? not sure which model it is.

For this EFI kit to work on a variant of Ninja 250 "x", 2 things need be identified:
1) stator and pickup signal must be same as 250R (four pulses per rev, firing 180 degree apart).
2) carb spacing and size are same, so the dual throttle body can be installed.

The rest can be easily adapted. The IC (ignitor controller) may need to re-pinned. Some tuning is likely needed.

The point is that EFI is so flexible for fuel controls that is almost universal for these engines. The challenges usually come from mechanical installations and adaptations, which many users can handle.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by crash666444666

BIG QUESTION? will it work on the older model 250s as well ie 2005???

2005 model, definitely yes. we have one customer just converted 1990 Ninja 250. That is old enough, isn't it?

So far we are sure the kit can be used from 1988 to 2012 models.

[crash666444666]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

2005 model, definitely yes. we have one customer just converted 1990 Ninja 250. That is old enough, isn't it?

So far we are sure the kit can be used from 1988 to 2012 models.

thanks just what i wanted to hear

[EthioKnight]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Regarding PNP, we are getting there, and we are very close.

Well, I'll admit I'm ignorant about the kit and EFI systems in general, but as soon as you've perfected the kit to be truly PNP and worked out all the kinks, you will have yourself a customer. I have decided not to buy a slip-on but to save up for your kit. Thanks for your continued efforts and keep up the good work.

[ecotrons]

For those who have concerns on the max power or performance of this EFI kit, take a look at antoher thread on this forum (page #14):
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...833#post430833
A groups of guys (all "non-professional" tuners) installed the kits. Their initial results may be supprisingly good to some suspicious people. Quote of @Scattcatt :

MID RIDE: ..."The torque output puts the carbs to shame!"

OVERALL IMPRESSION: Excellent basic set up! Easily outperforms the carbs! Very stable and one very happy rider! Only small fine tuning adjustments remain to get the best out of the system.

This is a guy without much tuning experience (probably first time fuel injection tuner), and he has no dyno, but use his "butt dyno".

He has some performance parts already, like CF Yoshi exhaust system and K&N filter pods. He tuned the kit by himself with a laptop on the back.

[WarWolfX0]

What size is the bung that need to be installed on the muffler, 18mm?
what o2 sensor is used in the kit?

[Daves2JZ]

Take my advice pay the extra money and get the eom FI TB don't even bother with the ones offered with the kit! I returned my kit and went back to carbs because of the cheap TB that come with the kit.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by WarWolfX0

What size is the bung that need to be installed on the muffler, 18mm?
what o2 sensor is used in the kit?

Yes, it is M18 (18mm thread). Or maybe it's easier to say, it is the same size as Bosch narrowband, or wideband O2 sensors. That is a standard size for O2 sensors.

It is a generic narrow-band, heated, and film-type oxygen sensor. Bosch calls this tech LSF sensors. It's the same tech as the millions O2 sensors used on today's cars.

BTW, it should not to be installed on the "muffler", but should be installed 3-5" downstream of the exhaust port.

EDIT: 3-5".

[icbm]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Yes, it is M18 (18mm thread).
BTW, it should not to be installed on the "muffler", but should be installed 3-5" downstream of the exhaust port.

Fixed. 3-5 feet might be a bit far.....

[Super-Tune]

Originally Posted by diwhiteii

Hello Everyone,

Here are pictures of the whole installation finished. I replaced the the 2 T fuel connectors with better quality ones. I replaced all the tubing with Helix Blue 1/4 fuel line so I could see the fuel moving. I am using a k&N filter at the moment but plan to change to custom velocity stacks when they arrive from australia . I mounted the ECU nicely under the seat, attached the engine temp sensor below the throttle bodies on the back side, plugged the vacuum hole on the tank and turned the screw from ON to pri position (no vacuum). I had the O2 sensors welded at a angle. I installed the MAP sensor on the #1 throttle body, plugged the hole on the #2 throttle body, ran the fuel return line to spot number #3 on the side of the tank, removed the decelleration cable and ran all the wires neatly. The keyswitch (pink) is soldered directly to the ignition wire at the fuse box(brown with black stripe). The CKP orange & green ground wire are soldered at the crank sensor wire harness(yellow wire is positive, black with white stripe is negitive ). Wiring took a while because I like it perfect, plus I enjoy electrical. When all the body parts are put back on you will see nothing. As you'll see I have alot of custom stuff on my bike in the pictures all of my custom fiberglass body work is off because I am still making some adjustments, so I left it off. This information should help you install the kit. Some pictures in the new manual for the EFI kit are of my bike. By the way, as far as the engine mods I have a jardine ss race full exhaust, BRT TIS CDI preprogrammed, and K&N filter. I will see how many pictures I can get on this site. If I cant get them all on, you can give me your email and I can send them to you. I took 45 pictures total. And to you Tri thank you for the link for the EMI shielding I will but some and try it and let you know.

If anyone has any questions about the install feel free to ask.

David

Nice work

[Bigballsofpaint]

if i dont end up buying an aprilia this year ill have to snag this kit

[KidA001]

Anyone in the SF Bay Area down to install this on my bike? I'll pay you

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by KidA001

Anyone in the SF Bay Area down to install this on my bike? I'll pay you

o.O How much?

[KidA001]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

o.O How much?

Hmmmm, name a fair price for your time. I have a garage, tools, and your favorite beer