Mismatched swingarm spool thread pitch?

[krakatak]

So, I bought a '09 250r a little while ago and the first thing I did was to put on some swingarm spools. Or try to.

Here's the story:

First, I bought some 10mm spools from cyclegear. Nothing special, but whatever. The left one goes in with no problems...threads perfectly...done. I go to put in the right one, and after a couple turns it starts to bind.

I try restarting my threading (crossthreaded? no), switching bolts (problem with the bolt threads? no), examining the threads in the hole (brand new and perfect looking), and just brute force (maybe the paint on the threads is making it a tight squeeze...start stripping threads real quick). I even buy a tap and die set to try to retap the hole...no go, starts binding real quick.

Finally, the eureka moment. My shiny new tap and die kit has a pitch depth gauge. I KNOW that the depth is 1.25mm, because that is what the left one is (and what everyone on the internets says), but when I throw the 1.50mm gauge in there, the depth matches perfectly. So, I run the 10mm x 1.5 tap through from the inside to clear out all the threads I've f*****d up, buy a new bolt from Ace, and voila! I have swingarm spools.

Now...wtf? Has anyone every heard of something like this? I haven't seen any postings like this. There always appears to be some general confusion about what bolts are the right ones, but cooler heads prevail and the answer is always 10mm x 1.25...except now for ONE of my spools. I have a solution so it's no longer a problem, I just don't understand!!!

My only theories are that 1) Kawasaki's supplier got a batch of the wrong threaded stock and never even noticed, 2) my bike was built on a Friday and the guy on the assembly line is messing with me, or 3) the spool mount is not stock and the person that replaced them is/was an idiot...but if it's not stock, it's a perfect weld, it matches the left spool mount, and matches the paint elsewhere on the swingarm perfectly.

[Alex]

Haven't seen anything about mismatched pitch, but sometimes those threads have been covered with paint inside, and retapping them helps. More info in this thread.

[Honko]

As Alex mentioned, when they paint the swing arms, the paint covers the threads on the inside. When I bought my stands they came with 10 mm spools and when I tried to install them initially I had the same problem as you, they didn't seem to fit and I thought I was starting to strip the threads on the swingarm so I eventually ended up buying another pair of spools. But after reading about the paint problem I decided to give it another go with the torque wrench (initially I had tried just threading it on with my hands and then once it was tight I was just going to torque it to spec but the paint makes it almost impossible to thread on further than a couple mm with your bare hands) and they fit perfectly.

Hopefully you have something like this for your torque wrench:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...35&R=100653635

[krakatak]

Originally Posted by Alex

Haven't seen anything about mismatched pitch, but sometimes those threads have been covered with paint inside, and retapping them helps. More info in this thread.

Maybe this post would have worked better as a reply to that thread...regardless, that's why I got the tap and die set. In the end, there was no question, the 1.50 pitch fit perfectly in the right and the 1.25 in the left. When I say I ran the 10x1.5 tap through the right one, I started from the wheel side and threaded out, and it threaded in with almost no resistance (unlike when I tried the 1.25 tap).

Like I said before: I found a solution so it's zero problem for me anymore, but it was so odd (it still makes no sense to me how it could happen) I had to share so people don't just crank on it trying to get through the 'paint'.

For anyone that's running into problems with swingarm spools, if you don't have a pitch depth gauge you can check by measuring 7.5mm and counting the number of threads, like so:
pitch_depth_check.jpg

[krakatak]

Originally Posted by Honko

As Alex mentioned, when they paint the swing arms, the paint covers the threads on the inside. When I bought my stands they came with 10 mm spools and when I tried to install them initially I had the same problem as you, they didn't seem to fit and I thought I was starting to strip the threads on the swingarm so I eventually ended up buying another pair of spools. But after reading about the paint problem I decided to give it another go with the torque wrench (initially I had tried just threading it on with my hands and then once it was tight I was just going to torque it to spec but the paint makes it almost impossible to thread on further than a couple mm with your bare hands) and they fit perfectly.

I was fully on board with that theory until I checked the pitch depth. Paint will make each thread fatter, but it won't change the peak-to-peak distance between threads.

Originally Posted by Honko

Hopefully you have something like this for your torque wrench:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...35&R=100653635

Heck yeah! I love the hex bit socket set! I'm a total stickler for wrenching anything besides fairings to the correct torque and so many bolts on our bikes are hex. I got an attachment to use them with my cordless screwdriver/drill too, and if you put it on a low torque setting it makes taking off and putting on plastics really easy and fast.

[Alex]

Good info here.

[CZroe]

I wonder if any of the previous guys retapping it just didn't check to see if theirs was 1.5 pitch.

[krakatak]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I wonder if any of the previous guys retapping it just didn't check to see if theirs was 1.5 pitch.

I'm wondering the same thing. Obviously it's not every bike, but still...it defies probability that not one person checked the pitch depth when they retapped.

[vnranger]

Originally Posted by krakatak

I'm wondering the same thing. Obviously it's not every bike, but still...it defies probability that not one person checked the pitch depth when they retapped.

I've asked the technician from kawasaki dealer where I bought my bike before I installed spool on my bike and the correct bolt size is M10(10mm) and pitch is 1.25

[Alex]

Yup, that's what it should be. This thread is making the case that perhaps in some examples, it turns out not to be.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by krakatak

I'm wondering the same thing. Obviously it's not every bike, but still...it defies probability that not one person checked the pitch depth when they retapped.

If I checked the other side and it weas 1.25 and everyone online said it was supposed to be, I may just tap it with 1.25 without checking.

[Runeknight95]

Originally Posted by krakatak

So, I bought a '09 250r a little while ago and the first thing I did was to put on some swingarm spools. Or try to.

Here's the story:

First, I bought some 10mm spools from cyclegear. Nothing special, but whatever. The left one goes in with no problems...threads perfectly...done. I go to put in the right one, and after a couple turns it starts to bind.

I try restarting my threading (crossthreaded? no), switching bolts (problem with the bolt threads? no), examining the threads in the hole (brand new and perfect looking), and just brute force (maybe the paint on the threads is making it a tight squeeze...start stripping threads real quick). I even buy a tap and die set to try to retap the hole...no go, starts binding real quick.

Finally, the eureka moment. My shiny new tap and die kit has a pitch depth gauge. I KNOW that the depth is 1.25mm, because that is what the left one is (and what everyone on the internets says), but when I throw the 1.50mm gauge in there, the depth matches perfectly. So, I run the 10mm x 1.5 tap through from the inside to clear out all the threads I've f*****d up, buy a new bolt from Ace, and voila! I have swingarm spools.

Now...wtf? Has anyone every heard of something like this? I haven't seen any postings like this. There always appears to be some general confusion about what bolts are the right ones, but cooler heads prevail and the answer is always 10mm x 1.25...except now for ONE of my spools. I have a solution so it's no longer a problem, I just don't understand!!!

My only theories are that 1) Kawasaki's supplier got a batch of the wrong threaded stock and never even noticed, 2) my bike was built on a Friday and the guy on the assembly line is messing with me, or 3) the spool mount is not stock and the person that replaced them is/was an idiot...but if it's not stock, it's a perfect weld, it matches the left spool mount, and matches the paint elsewhere on the swingarm perfectly.

Originally Posted by Honko

As Alex mentioned, when they paint the swing arms, the paint covers the threads on the inside. When I bought my stands they came with 10 mm spools and when I tried to install them initially I had the same problem as you, they didn't seem to fit and I thought I was starting to strip the threads on the swingarm so I eventually ended up buying another pair of spools. But after reading about the paint problem I decided to give it another go with the torque wrench (initially I had tried just threading it on with my hands and then once it was tight I was just going to torque it to spec but the paint makes it almost impossible to thread on further than a couple mm with your bare hands) and they fit perfectly.

Hopefully you have something like this for your torque wrench:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...35&R=100653635

Originally Posted by krakatak

Maybe this post would have worked better as a reply to that thread...regardless, that's why I got the tap and die set. In the end, there was no question, the 1.50 pitch fit perfectly in the right and the 1.25 in the left. When I say I ran the 10x1.5 tap through the right one, I started from the wheel side and threaded out, and it threaded in with almost no resistance (unlike when I tried the 1.25 tap).

Like I said before: I found a solution so it's zero problem for me anymore, but it was so odd (it still makes no sense to me how it could happen) I had to share so people don't just crank on it trying to get through the 'paint'.

For anyone that's running into problems with swingarm spools, if you don't have a pitch depth gauge you can check by measuring 7.5mm and counting the number of threads, like so:
Attachment 13666

Sorry for bringing up an old thread but this is my exact problem.
Oddly enough the bolt will only go in half way into each side.

And your links are dead and im not sure exactly what I need to buy to get this to work.
Im looking for a 10mmx1.5 tap? metric im assuming?

[krakatak]

Originally Posted by Runeknight95

Sorry for bringing up an old thread but this is my exact problem.
Oddly enough the bolt will only go in half way into each side.

And your links are dead and im not sure exactly what I need to buy to get this to work.
Im looking for a 10mmx1.5 tap? metric im assuming?

That's right, but the only reason you would need a tap is if you messed up the threads. Assuming you haven't, you should just need the right threaded bolts.

It could be one of two things:
1) It could be paint, and you weren't torquing hard enough (out of fear of stripping the threads). You could either just muscle it through or get a tap (10mm / 1.25mm fine thread) and use that to cut out the paint.

2) The threads are wrong on both sides. In that case, you should just be able to go to your local hardware store and get 10mm / 1.50mm coarse thread bolts. If you messed up the threads too much, you might still want the coarse thread 10mm tap to clear out the threads you've damaged. When I used the tap, I did not have to use much force...no more than say 10Nm of torque if you have a torque wrench (total SWAG).


But first you've got to determine which of the above is the case. If you've only tried threading from the outside-in, you should have some pristine threads on the inside (wheel side). If you have some way of measuring pitch depth, do that. I really recommend doing this...even it's counting threads like I discussed above...but there exists a little sawtooth tool that comes in many tap and die kits. If you don't want to measure, get a 10mm coarse thread (1.50mm pitch depth) bolt and gently try to thread it. In the seemingly impossible bad luck scenario it could have lots of paint and be the wrong pitch depth, you really will need to measure the pitch depth to know for sure before cranking it.

Good luck and post up what you find out.

[Runeknight95]

Originally Posted by krakatak

That's right, but the only reason you would need a tap is if you messed up the threads. Assuming you haven't, you should just need the right threaded bolts.

It could be one of two things:
1) It could be paint, and you weren't torquing hard enough (out of fear of stripping the threads). You could either just muscle it through or get a tap (10mm / 1.25mm fine thread) and use that to cut out the paint.

2) The threads are wrong on both sides. In that case, you should just be able to go to your local hardware store and get 10mm / 1.50mm coarse thread bolts. If you messed up the threads too much, you might still want the coarse thread 10mm tap to clear out the threads you've damaged. When I used the tap, I did not have to use much force...no more than say 10Nm of torque if you have a torque wrench (total SWAG).


But first you've got to determine which of the above is the case. If you've only tried threading from the outside-in, you should have some pristine threads on the inside (wheel side). If you have some way of measuring pitch depth, do that. I really recommend doing this...even it's counting threads like I discussed above...but there exists a little sawtooth tool that comes in many tap and die kits. If you don't want to measure, get a 10mm coarse thread (1.50mm pitch depth) bolt and gently try to thread it. In the seemingly impossible bad luck scenario it could have lots of paint and be the wrong pitch depth, you really will need to measure the pitch depth to know for sure before cranking it.

Good luck and post up what you find out.

I think its a 1.5 pitch, I tried to put it in the mirror stay area as suggested because they are M10x1.25 and it wouldn't fit

[tfkrocks]

I had to re-tap the holes for the swingarm spools on my 250 because they were rusty from never being used. They started cross-threading @rojoracing53's spool bolts lol. After cleaning up the threads though, a set of standard 10mm spools went on with no problems.

[rojoracing53]

Because the OP bought a ninja 250 I have to assume they are a newb and thus I'm sceptical about the ligitamacy of their perception of the situation. But hey as long as it's fixed now then bravo

I like to start my days with some sarcastic humor, so carry on people

[krakatak]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Because the OP bought a ninja 250 I have to assume they are a newb and thus I'm sceptical about the ligitamacy of their perception of the situation. But hey as long as it's fixed now then bravo

I like to start my days with some sarcastic humor, so carry on people

On the contrary, I've been riding about 9 years. I got the ninjette to race it. I've also got a doctorate in engineering, whether you consider that a mark in my favor or against

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by krakatak

On the contrary, I've been riding about 9 years. I got the ninjette to race it. I've also got a doctorate in engineering, whether you consider that a mark in my favor or against

Then congratulations you can now add accomplished sense of humor, and pro Ninjette mechanics to your list of degrees because you Sr. Have earned it.

[krakatak]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Then congratulations you can now add accomplished sense of humor, and pro Ninjette mechanics to your list of degrees because you Sr. Have earned it.

I walked right into that one.

Still got my amateur status. :-)

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Runeknight95

I think its a 1.5 pitch, I tried to put it in the mirror stay area as suggested because they are M10x1.25 and it wouldn't fit

Metric thread 10 (M10) can have a pitch of 1.5 mm, 1.25 mm or 1.0 mm (which is the distance between two successive crests).

If you can insert a rod of wood or any soft material into the hole of the spool, you can push it against one side and obtain some indentations of the crests.

Counting how many spaces fit within 1/2", you can exactly determine the pitch.

8.5 spaces means pitch of 1.5 mm
10.1 spaces means pitch of 1.25 mm
12.7 spaces means pitch of 1.0 mm

[rojoracing53]

If your going to work on your own stuff car, moto, bicycle, it couldn't hurt to have one of these in your tool box.

[InvisiBill]

Just another anecdote, but the 250 swingarm I got off eBay (advertised as an '09 with 10K on it) had 1.5 pitch threads for the spool bolts. I picked up a M10-1.25 tap to clean up the threads, but it stopped basically as soon as it got past the taper. Forcing it further took quite a bit of effort, as one would expect when cutting new threads. I got a M10-1.5 tap, and it slid right through the paint like a hot knife through butter.

The swingarm is in great shape and nothing leads me to believe it's not completely stock. I can't say for sure since it's a used part off eBay, but everything points to this being the way Kaw shipped it out.

I just wanted to point out that it seems some of these did come with 1.5 pitch threads. Apparently krakatak got the one where they actually made the switch. =) If you have a gauge (or extra bolts), I suggest double-checking the threads before you order your spools, rather than just assuming they'll be M10-1.25.

[krakatak]

Thanks for posting your experience. This happened forever ago for me, but it still haunts me. Maybe I did miss something obvious...but I tried everything I could think of and didn't find any other answer.

[CZroe]

The '05 tank recall happened because some tanks left the factory with the notorious leak that a lot of people cause themselves by inserting longer bolts into the tank.

Why? Because some tanks had to have those threads tapped after painting (rework) and the tap they used was too long. Knowing that these are also prone to having paint in the threads, I wonder if something similar is happening and they are, once again, using the wrong tap.

[cbinker]

i was thinking this was going to be about mismatching colors. now i am sad.