Bike stalled at light close to home... wouldn't start for ~6-8mins.

CZroe · September 17th, 2009, 12:46 AM

It got quite a bit less warm-up time than it usually gets but after letting it warm while I geared up I figured that it was plenty warm/nearly warm enough. At the second stoplight from home (on the same block), I intended to lane-split to join the bikes I saw stopped up at the light. As soon as I entered the space between the lanes, the light changed green up ahead and I had to accelerate quickly to cross the intersection and move into a travel lane. Because my radio was blasting static in between a station seek, I did not realize that I did this at least one gear too low and my RPMs were high (around/over 10K RPM).

"If it weren't warmed up before, it is now!" I thought as I came to rest at the next stoplight barely more than a block from home. While waiting I put the bike in neutral so that I could use my clutch hand turn my Bluetooth helmet's radio to an actual station. When it came time to go I realized that the bike had stalled. Huh. I tried to start it but it would not start. The engine would seemingly fire a couple times and then stop even when I kept the starter turning. When I pulled into the center median to let the cars behind me go, I attempted to drop it into first but the neutral light just stayed on, like I had gone from 2nd gear to neutral. Even if a false neutral were somehow the cause for the stall, it doesn't explain the difficulty starting. The neutral light was on AND my clutch was pulled in AND my kick-stand was up (not needed when it's in neutral).

Anyway, I got it off the street and tried again. Still nothing. I tried to see my coolant level and, as usual, I can't see the level with the fairings on. I got the cap off and dipped to see and there was some near the top. The oil looked strangely dirty for having less than 1K miles but the level was fine. It had now been several minutes so I tried again and, this time, it started right up. Weird.

I don't want to get stranded out there. Luckily, I was close enough to push it home if I wasn't able to get it started but I may not be so lucky next time. Any ideas what could be causing this?

Oh, and it may all be in my mind but shifting seems a lot less smooth and a bit more difficult now... like it wants to stick half-way when shifting up.

randomwalk101 · September 17th, 2009, 03:09 PM

sounds like fuel starvation. what mod have you done to your fuel system?

tjkamper · September 17th, 2009, 03:43 PM

You might need to shim the needles to richin it up.

CZroe · September 17th, 2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

sounds like fuel starvation. what mod have you done to your fuel system?

Bone stock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjkamper

You might need to shim the needles to richin it up.

I made it 9k miles without doing that. What's different about now?

KELPHYN · September 18th, 2009, 12:30 AM

This would be much easier to explain on a chalkboard but I'll see if I can explain this so it makes sense. You just accellorated really hard,WOT, then abruptly closed the throttle and came to a stop. Okay. At WOT the in coming air builds up momentum being sucked in by the pistons and going throw the carbs,then the carbs are quickly closed but air is trying to pass throught the engine. This creates a type of backdraft effect and esscentually creates a cloud of atomized fuel in the air box, choking the engine. Thus when you try to restart your engine the pistons must first purge all the fuel rich air in the air box until it is getting fresh oxygen rich air again. This can even contaminate the air filter a little making it a little harder to restart. This doesn't happen that often multi-cylinder engines but it does. It's much more common on singles, that is why singles cylinder kickstart bikes seem to take a 'special technec' only their owners know.
There is a little more to it,but that is the basic physics behind it. Next time just keep the throttle open a little to burn up all the fuel rich air after overreving, to purge the airbox and it shouldn't be a problem. Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you more. Also with 9k miles you might want to think about a valve adjustment if the problem presists.

CZroe · September 18th, 2009, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KELPHYN

This would be much easier to explain on a chalkboard but I'll see if I can explain this so it makes sense. You just accellorated really hard,WOT, then abruptly closed the throttle and came to a stop. Okay. At WOT the in coming air builds up momentum being sucked in by the pistons and going throw the carbs,then the carbs are quickly closed but air is trying to pass throught the engine. This creates a type of backdraft effect and esscentually creates a cloud of atomized fuel in the air box, choking the engine. Thus when you try to restart your engine the pistons must first purge all the fuel rich air in the air box until it is getting fresh oxygen rich air again. This can even contaminate the air filter a little making it a little harder to restart. This doesn't happen that often multi-cylinder engines but it does. It's much more common on singles, that is why singles cylinder kickstart bikes seem to take a 'special technec' only their owners know.
There is a little more to it,but that is the basic physics behind it. Next time just keep the throttle open a little to burn up all the fuel rich air after overreving, to purge the airbox and it shouldn't be a problem. Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you more. Also with 9k miles you might want to think about a valve adjustment if the problem presists.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand it somewhat but even if I didn't get a word of it I'd still be comforted to know that someone has an explanation that doesn't imply that my bike is getting unreliable.

Anyway, I just had the valves serviced last month at 7,860mi. The dealership unexpectedly went out of business the next week so I hope they did proper work.

backinthesaddleagain · September 18th, 2009, 09:19 PM

JET - do you know how much the valves were out of spec by?

CZroe · September 18th, 2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

JET - do you know how much the valves were out of spec by?

I reported it in the proper place.
"my receipt came with this note:
'VALVES WERE IN SPEC .006 .009'
Hmm."

They unexpectedly (to me) went out of business a few days later so I hope the quality of their work didn't suffer beforehand. They are the same dealer that set up the shim exchange program that the Yeager's Ninja 250 blog raved about (Alba Action Sports).

http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n..._clearance.htm

CZroe · November 25th, 2009, 10:42 AM

Well, it did it again. TWICE. This time I was truly scared that I was stranded a couple cities away in Escondido, CA (certainly wasn't a cold engine this time!).

Once again, I pulled up to a light and it stalled for seemingly no reason. It took me almost 30-seconds, but it finally slugishly started so I cleared the intersection I was holding up and started looking for a place to pull over and check it out (at-speed the slugishness went away). Anyway, it stalled again at the next light. This time, I couldn't get it restarted no matter how I played with the starter so I had to push it into the parking lot I was already heading for.

I checked all my fluids and they were fine. My temps were fine... well, the idiot light was "verified working but inactive," so it tells me that much at least. I tried to start it many times and it would "fire" at first but it would not stay on unless I held the starter and even that would stop working after about 10 seconds. It was clear that nothing was going to work if I just kept trying, so I eventually gave it a rest and prepared to call for a ride (no idea how I'd get it towed). About 15 minutes later, I tried it again and it sluggishly fired up and then overcame the sluggishness and stayed on. I put fresh trusted brand gasolene at the next stop to dilute any potentially bad gas or anything and I made it home, to work, and back home again without it reoccuring.

I certainly considered myself "broken down" there for a little while. Something's certainly wrong. I mean, why would a vehicle with only 10K miles be so unreliable?

Any help diagnosing would be appreciated.

KELPHYN: Does your explanation still apply to a fully-warmed engine?

Snake · November 25th, 2009, 10:50 AM

I would check the air and fuel filter to see if they may be clogged.

rockNroll · November 25th, 2009, 10:53 AM

Check your fuel filter/ fuel lines
Check your petcock (beavis laugh)
Check the vacuum line to the petcock (butthead laugh)
Check your fuel tank venting

Snake · November 25th, 2009, 11:01 AM

If your air and fuel filter are fine then I would take your bike to onother mechanic to check the valves. I have a feeling that the mechanic that "checked and adjusted" your valves may not have done it properly. If the new mechanic finds that they are out of spec I would have him note what he finds and take that to the other place so you can get your money back.

CZroe · November 25th, 2009, 11:07 AM

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll see what I can do...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake

If your air and fuel filter are fine then I would take your bike to onother mechanic to check the valves. I have a feeling that the mechanic that "checked and adjusted" your valves may not have done it properly. If the new mechanic finds that they are out of spec I would have him note what he finds and take that to the other place so you can get your money back.

I know, this information only makes the quality of their work that much more suspect but: they went out of business.

I didn't know it was coming either... I called 2 days after they did the service and found that it had happened. (Alba Action Sports).

rockNroll · November 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM

What you've described really isn't what I'd consider a symptom of tight or loose valves.

Snake · November 25th, 2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZroe

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll see what I can do...

I know, it only make the quality of their work that much more suspect, but they went out of business.

I didn't know it was coming either... I called 2 days after they did the service and found that it had happened. (Alba Action Sports).

The mechanic either probably knew that he would be out of a job soon and didn't care about doing the job correctly or he may have not had the knowledge or proper tools to do the job.

KELPHYN · November 25th, 2009, 12:45 PM

CZroe, Yes my my other explaination applies to a hot or cold engine, but it usually only happens after abrupt deaccelleration and sudden stops. But it does still sound like a flooding problem, to much fuel. Have you shimmed your carbs? If so when? But anyway check your air filter, maybe clean it anyway. Also check your sparkplugs and see how the burn is. If they are blackish that would confirm that it is a flooding problem. If they are a lite grey that would mean your bike is running lean and not getting enough fuel. They should have lite brownish tinge to them. and at 10k miles they should be changed anyway,(if you had not done so already) If the filter and plugs check out okay, I would be tempted to think it might be in the valve clearances, especially if the last place you took your bike is suspect of sub-standard work. Oh one other thing you could check is to make sure your choke is turning off completely as that would cause a flooding problem also. Oh one other thing, the last shop didn't lower your idle on you did or maybe you turned the adjusting knob while washing your bike, anyway check your idle also, although I'm sure you have. Hope we aren't making you chase your tail to much with to many suggestions but this online prognosess isn't easy and sometimes we just add to the problem by suggesting stuff that isn't relevant. Anyhoo good luck and keep us posted.

kkim · November 25th, 2009, 01:29 PM

what is your idle speed after the bike is fully warmed up?

I would drain the float bowls and install an inline fuel filter to eliminate water in the gas as your problem, first.

also, check to see that all vacuum lines are securely in place.

HKr1 · November 25th, 2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Check your fuel filter/ fuel lines
Check your petcock (beavis laugh)
Check the vacuum line to the petcock (butthead laugh)
Check your fuel tank venting

I like them ideas!

After market fuel filter lets you see if gas is making to the carbs.
Open the cap see if it starts. Ninja's had a problem with them not venting in the past. Atleast the float bowls on the 250 are vented to the atmosphere.
When the last time you changed your plugs? I like to do them often on bikes.

September 17th, 2009, 12:46 AM	#1
CZroe CPT Falcon Name: J.Emmett Turner Location: Newnan, GA Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.	Bike stalled at light close to home... wouldn't start for ~6-8mins. It got quite a bit less warm-up time than it usually gets but after letting it warm while I geared up I figured that it was plenty warm/nearly warm enough. At the second stoplight from home (on the same block), I intended to lane-split to join the bikes I saw stopped up at the light. As soon as I entered the space between the lanes, the light changed green up ahead and I had to accelerate quickly to cross the intersection and move into a travel lane. Because my radio was blasting static in between a station seek, I did not realize that I did this at least one gear too low and my RPMs were high (around/over 10K RPM). "If it weren't warmed up before, it is now!" I thought as I came to rest at the next stoplight barely more than a block from home. While waiting I put the bike in neutral so that I could use my clutch hand turn my Bluetooth helmet's radio to an actual station. When it came time to go I realized that the bike had stalled. Huh. I tried to start it but it would not start. The engine would seemingly fire a couple times and then stop even when I kept the starter turning. When I pulled into the center median to let the cars behind me go, I attempted to drop it into first but the neutral light just stayed on, like I had gone from 2nd gear to neutral. Even if a false neutral were somehow the cause for the stall, it doesn't explain the difficulty starting. The neutral light was on AND my clutch was pulled in AND my kick-stand was up (not needed when it's in neutral). Anyway, I got it off the street and tried again. Still nothing. I tried to see my coolant level and, as usual, I can't see the level with the fairings on. I got the cap off and dipped to see and there was some near the top. The oil looked strangely dirty for having less than 1K miles but the level was fine. It had now been several minutes so I tried again and, this time, it started right up. Weird. I don't want to get stranded out there. Luckily, I was close enough to push it home if I wasn't able to get it started but I may not be so lucky next time. Any ideas what could be causing this? Oh, and it may all be in my mind but shifting seems a lot less smooth and a bit more difficult now... like it wants to stick half-way when shifting up. Last futzed with by CZroe; September 18th, 2009 at 02:00 AM.

September 17th, 2009, 03:43 PM	#3
tjkamper ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Travis Location: Warwick, RI Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	You might need to shim the needles to richin it up. __________________________________________________ Addicted to anything that has an engine and rolls.

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September 17th, 2009, 03:09 PM	#2
randomwalk101 self wrencher Name: john Location: houston Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 08 250r and 07 600r Posts: A lot.	sounds like fuel starvation. what mod have you done to your fuel system?

September 18th, 2009, 12:30 AM	#5
KELPHYN ninjette.org guru Name: Calvin Location: Quesnel, B.C Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 250R (sold), 2013 300SE Posts: 276	This would be much easier to explain on a chalkboard but I'll see if I can explain this so it makes sense. You just accellorated really hard,WOT, then abruptly closed the throttle and came to a stop. Okay. At WOT the in coming air builds up momentum being sucked in by the pistons and going throw the carbs,then the carbs are quickly closed but air is trying to pass throught the engine. This creates a type of backdraft effect and esscentually creates a cloud of atomized fuel in the air box, choking the engine. Thus when you try to restart your engine the pistons must first purge all the fuel rich air in the air box until it is getting fresh oxygen rich air again. This can even contaminate the air filter a little making it a little harder to restart. This doesn't happen that often multi-cylinder engines but it does. It's much more common on singles, that is why singles cylinder kickstart bikes seem to take a 'special technec' only their owners know. There is a little more to it,but that is the basic physics behind it. Next time just keep the throttle open a little to burn up all the fuel rich air after overreving, to purge the airbox and it shouldn't be a problem. Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you more. Also with 9k miles you might want to think about a valve adjustment if the problem presists.

September 18th, 2009, 09:19 PM	#7
backinthesaddleagain ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Greg Location: Rhode Island Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 ZX6R 636 Posts: A lot.	JET - do you know how much the valves were out of spec by?

November 25th, 2009, 10:42 AM	#9
CZroe CPT Falcon Name: J.Emmett Turner Location: Newnan, GA Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.	Well, it did it again. TWICE. This time I was truly scared that I was stranded a couple cities away in Escondido, CA (certainly wasn't a cold engine this time!). Once again, I pulled up to a light and it stalled for seemingly no reason. It took me almost 30-seconds, but it finally slugishly started so I cleared the intersection I was holding up and started looking for a place to pull over and check it out (at-speed the slugishness went away). Anyway, it stalled again at the next light. This time, I couldn't get it restarted no matter how I played with the starter so I had to push it into the parking lot I was already heading for. I checked all my fluids and they were fine. My temps were fine... well, the idiot light was "verified working but inactive," so it tells me that much at least. I tried to start it many times and it would "fire" at first but it would not stay on unless I held the starter and even that would stop working after about 10 seconds. It was clear that nothing was going to work if I just kept trying, so I eventually gave it a rest and prepared to call for a ride (no idea how I'd get it towed). About 15 minutes later, I tried it again and it sluggishly fired up and then overcame the sluggishness and stayed on. I put fresh trusted brand gasolene at the next stop to dilute any potentially bad gas or anything and I made it home, to work, and back home again without it reoccuring. I certainly considered myself "broken down" there for a little while. Something's certainly wrong. I mean, why would a vehicle with only 10K miles be so unreliable? Any help diagnosing would be appreciated. KELPHYN: Does your explanation still apply to a fully-warmed engine?

November 25th, 2009, 10:50 AM	#10
Snake ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Rick Location: Alexandria, Louisiana Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): 05 Blue Ninja 250 Posts: Too much. MOTY - 2017, MOTM - Jan '19, Oct '16, May '14	I would check the air and fuel filter to see if they may be clogged.

November 25th, 2009, 10:53 AM	#11
rockNroll . Name: rock Location: greenville, south carolina Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): black Posts: A lot.	Check your fuel filter/ fuel lines Check your petcock (beavis laugh) Check the vacuum line to the petcock (butthead laugh) Check your fuel tank venting

November 25th, 2009, 11:01 AM	#12
Snake ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Rick Location: Alexandria, Louisiana Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): 05 Blue Ninja 250 Posts: Too much. MOTY - 2017, MOTM - Jan '19, Oct '16, May '14	If your air and fuel filter are fine then I would take your bike to onother mechanic to check the valves. I have a feeling that the mechanic that "checked and adjusted" your valves may not have done it properly. If the new mechanic finds that they are out of spec I would have him note what he finds and take that to the other place so you can get your money back.

November 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM	#14
rockNroll . Name: rock Location: greenville, south carolina Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): black Posts: A lot.	What you've described really isn't what I'd consider a symptom of tight or loose valves.

November 25th, 2009, 12:45 PM	#16
KELPHYN ninjette.org guru Name: Calvin Location: Quesnel, B.C Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 250R (sold), 2013 300SE Posts: 276	CZroe, Yes my my other explaination applies to a hot or cold engine, but it usually only happens after abrupt deaccelleration and sudden stops. But it does still sound like a flooding problem, to much fuel. Have you shimmed your carbs? If so when? But anyway check your air filter, maybe clean it anyway. Also check your sparkplugs and see how the burn is. If they are blackish that would confirm that it is a flooding problem. If they are a lite grey that would mean your bike is running lean and not getting enough fuel. They should have lite brownish tinge to them. and at 10k miles they should be changed anyway,(if you had not done so already) If the filter and plugs check out okay, I would be tempted to think it might be in the valve clearances, especially if the last place you took your bike is suspect of sub-standard work. Oh one other thing you could check is to make sure your choke is turning off completely as that would cause a flooding problem also. Oh one other thing, the last shop didn't lower your idle on you did or maybe you turned the adjusting knob while washing your bike, anyway check your idle also, although I'm sure you have. Hope we aren't making you chase your tail to much with to many suggestions but this online prognosess isn't easy and sometimes we just add to the problem by suggesting stuff that isn't relevant. Anyhoo good luck and keep us posted.

November 25th, 2009, 01:29 PM	#17
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	what is your idle speed after the bike is fully warmed up? I would drain the float bowls and install an inline fuel filter to eliminate water in the gas as your problem, first. also, check to see that all vacuum lines are securely in place.