Lots of oil change questions.

[fast1075]

Ya'll know what Forrest Gump's Mama used to say. I'm 61 and have enough sense to learn new things. I did the research, and oil isn't what it used to be.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

I don't see where you've proved me wrong, or provided any studies that support your position. I provided information, which you rejected out of hand. What concrete information do you have to back up your position?

Sheesh! Just dismiss it at this point if you don't think it true for cryin' out loud!

Everything I've told you I've learned over years of experience and research - and is accurate and true. I've given safe and economical alternatives, but you are free to use whatever oil you want. Some people may choose to believe what I've said, or at least research it for themselves, and it might save them expensive repairs down the line.

Move on!

[InvisiBill]

I think http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html is a much easier to read version of that article (just the website layout)...

And I think you're taking away the wrong conclusions from it. That was sort of testing "auto" oil vs. fancy expensive "motorcycle" oil. The "motorcycle" oil people could provide no data to back up their claims that their oil was better. The "auto" oil companies weren't surprised by the test results, because any great advancement in oil technology is going to end up in everything eventually. Those tests showed that regardless of what picture is on the bottle and what number is on the price tag, good oil is good and bad oil is bad. As fast1075 said, the "motorcycle" oil might simply have been relabelled "auto" oil even.

Not exactly the same, but the EX500 manual calls for SG rated oil, or SH/SJ/SL/SM plus JASO MA (the SH standard is from '93). The newer API standards focused more on efficiency and emissions, so the JASO standards were created to ensure that bike oil was still sufficient. JASO MA is specifically designed around 4-stroke, wet-clutch setups. The JASO F_ standards are for 2-stroke engines. http://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php The time that article was written is basically when oil changed so that standard auto oils started doing things we didn't want in bike engines.

There's a difference between "motorcycle" oil that has a picture of a bike on the bottle, and motorcycle oil that's got JASO certification to work specifically on a 4-stroke, wet-clutch machine. One is marketing BS, the other is engineered to a specific standard because the previous standard no longer accurately represented what bike engines needed.

The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:

1. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application.
2. Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.
3. The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
4. The viscosities of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.
5. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

These results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along.

These last two results (4-5) definitely do not agree with what the motorcycle oil producers have been telling us. In fact the test results not only indicate the two motorcycle oils being outperformed in viscosity retention by the two automotive synthetic products. but even by the relatively inexpensive Castrol GTX, which is a petroleum product. This directly contradicts the advertising claims made by the motorcycle oil producers.

The last two points expose "motorcycle" oils (the gimmicks from '94) as marketing BS. Keep in mind that these are different from modern JASO certified oils designed to work with bike engines.

The first three points make it clear how a bike engine is different from a car, and help give you insight on what oil to use, even just based on viscosity.

In those tests, Castrol GTX had lost 8.2% of its viscosity after 3600 miles in an Accord. The same oil had lost 32% of its viscosity (i.e. it was down to 27 weight from 40) after 1500 miles in a bike. The transmission gears cause the oil to shear and break down much faster. Even the best oil they tested, Mobil1, had lost 17% of its viscosity (down to 33 weight) after 1500 miles.


http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html is another page with quite a bit of research. The author seems quite knowledgeable about these things.

I get a lot of email, "My buddy has 283,000 miles on his Yamazuki 867 Nintruder, and he's never used anything but 35¢ per quart grocery store oil changed every 48,000 miles." Here's the truth: modern Japanese engines are amazingly well engineered and can tolerate a surprising amount of abuse. However, putting automotive oils in your motorcycle and running them for more than 1500 miles is abuse. I abuse my motorcycle enough with the way I ride them without adding on the abuse of using cheap oil that will break down in 1500 miles.

The question of which oil is best is not settled. We know what we want: the oil is inexpensive, lasts a long time, and makes our engine never break. There are various articles in MCN which do a chemical analysis and make recommendations based on the content of the additive package. I am very skeptical of this, as the utility of these chemicals at various levels is never tested, and the base oils are not tested. There are a couple articles that actually test for viscosity breakdown, and standard petroleum oils don't do very well. Consumer Reports once did a 4,500,000 mile test of oils in NYC taxicabs, however these engines only start once per day and are water-cooled, so they mostly avoid cold start-ups and overheating. If you're using a standard automotive petroleum oil in your motorcycle and running it for more than 1,500 miles, you are taking your chances. By 1,500 miles, the VII additives are pretty much all broken down, and the oil has therefore thinned out enormously.

Your engine will not explode if you use Spiffo-Magic Superlube for 4,000 miles. Your engine will not explode if you never use synthetic oils. However, any of these choices puts additional strain on your engine. You buy $65 tires for your car that last 45,000 miles, and $100 tires for your bike that last 8,000 miles. Why on earth would you try to save $5 on each oil change to buy an oil that can't hold up in a motorcycle engine? My DL650 runs its oil through the transmission, I run off-road (extreme environment due to silicon blow-by at the piston rings), I'm pretty much always revving my engine at 5500 rpm or more (red line on the Corvette, the one that comes with Mobil-1 as factory fill). I stress my little engine enough without making it use dinner candles as lubricants. Nor do I wish to make the bearings run in 10w-40 oil that's broken down to 10w-15 oil.

I think that sums it up pretty well. You might never notice a difference between using $50 oil and $0.50 oil in the entire lifetime of the bike, simply due to the huge number of factors that go into a running engine. However, spending a few extra bucks to buy decent oil and do more frequent changes is cheap insurance in my book. The overall cost over the lifetime of the bike is still probably less than the cost of one piece of gear, so is it really that big a deal?

Some people should, in my opinion, clearly use a synthetic oil. You should be using a synthetic if:

• you routinely start your engine in temperatures under 40°f, 5°c.
• you live somewhere where it gets below -35 degrees, and you want to start your car. In this case you must use either Mobil-1 0w-30 or the Canadian 0w-40 Rotella. If you're riding your bike in -40 degrees, I want a picture just before you die.
• you leave your vehicle sit unused for months at a time.
• you are unable or unwilling to change your oil within 2000 miles.
• you have one of these new 4-stroke MX bikes. These MX bikes hold only about one quart of oil, all of them have marginal cooling systems, and if there's a more severe use of an engine than MX, I don't want to be physically present when it happens.

For some people, none of those will apply. If you do experience any of those conditions, some properties of synthetic oil will be beneficial for you.


As for viscosity, the EX500 manual simply recommends 10W-40, but states that you may need to use other viscosities depending on the climate. At least in my case 5W-40 is not "out of spec", and above ~80°F is actually the same 40-weight recommended in the manual. Since I do ride in colder weather, I like the 5W for cold startups.

The Rotella T6 5W-40 meets all the requirements in my manual, including JASO MA. It's a synthetic plus it's cheap. It also has the benefits of being a commercial ("diesel") oil. These oils tend to put more emphasis on protection and less on efficiency and emissions. To me, that sounds quite fitting for my '80s-technology EX500 engine without a catalytic converter or anything like that. See the link above for more info on commercial oils.


Like my sig says, I'm not your mom and I'm not paying for your parts, so do whatever you want with your own bike. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything they don't want to. These are just the facts and my line of reasoning as to why I do what I do.

[flitecontrol]

^ Well said.

[Ghostt]

Nice to see a familiar face #InvisiBill, funny how some topics refuse to die LOL



BTW I approve of your signature, thank you.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

^ Well said.

Huh? You know he agrees with what I was telling you - right?

[flitecontrol]

Sure, but he said it more clearly and tactfully than you did. We aren't that far apart on where we stand on this issue. I do use Rotella in my bikes, because that's what goes in my diesel tractor and I buy it in bulk. But if Rotella wasn't readily available, I'd have no qualms about using an automotive oil in 15W-40 or 15W-50, depending on the temperature range the bike would be operating in. Some may refer to these oils as diesel specific, even though the oil manufacturer indicates they can be used in light trucks and cars with gasoline engines. I refer to all non-m0torcycle specific oils as automotive oils.

BTW, you touched on this earlier but didn't go into detail. The base stock in a multi-grade oil is always the lower number. For example, a 10W-30 uses a 10 weight base which has viscosity modifiers added so it will behave like a 30 weight oil at higher temperatures.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Sure, but he said it more clearly and tactfully than you did. We aren't that far apart on where we stand on this issue. I do use Rotella in my bikes, because that's what goes in my diesel tractor and I buy it in bulk. But if Rotella wasn't readily available, I'd have no qualms about using an automotive oil in 15W-40 or 15W-50, depending on the temperature range the bike would be operating in. Some may refer to these oils as diesel specific, even though the oil manufacturer indicates they can be used in light trucks and cars with gasoline engines. I refer to all non-m0torcycle specific oils as automotive oils.

BTW, you touched on this earlier but didn't go into detail. The base stock in a multi-grade oil is always the lower number. For example, a 10W-30 uses a 10 weight base which has viscosity modifiers added so it will behave like a 30 weight oil at higher temperatures.

Here we go again...

Your first comment is way wrong.

As for the second comment - not for synthetic oils. Do more research.

My apologies for not being tactful in my replies. I've never insulted you, just tried to correct incorrect information. It's just the facts - and no fluff - sorry.

[dcj13]

Religion & politics...

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dcj13

Religion & politics...

And money too

[alex.s]

comparing how oil is worn by car engine to a bike engine is like comparing the quarter mile running times of a heavy lift champion vs a small dog.

you simply don't do it because they are completely different.