Bike won't start - Page 4

FvnnyL3tt3r1ng · November 7th, 2013, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quarterliter

Displacement and horsepower are not what caused this engine harm. Any wet sump engine would have experienced the same issue. But for real, a buel blast would be your best bet.

What I was getting at is the engine requires more revs for the same hp

quarterliter · November 7th, 2013, 08:36 AM

I'm not convinced you are correct. That piston looked like it had experienced very high heat caused by oil starvation. I have heard of the oil light coming on during heavy breaking, but I think that the time spent doing a stoppie is relatively small compared to time doing a wheelie. Justin do you do stoppies for extended periods of time?

n4mwd · November 7th, 2013, 01:17 PM

The oil pickup is in the rear of the engine so a wheelie would cause the pickup to be under more oil and not less.

Like I said, running on its side is the biggest threat - say after a failed wheelie.

Justin was experiencing high engine temps from an unknown cause prior to his rebuild. The engine also had a rolled bearing. I don't know if it was the same cylinder or not. Ironically, the high engine temps forced a rebuild before he damaged his crank. He was definitely quite lucky in that respect.

But because he uses full synthetic oil, I don't believe the problem was positional. I believe that something clogged up an oil passage and that was what did him in.

I have seen other bikes where the oil filter is installed incorrectly which crams debris at high pressure into the bearings and crank passages. I don't know if this was a factor with Justin's bike or not. It could have happened prior to him getting it even if he did everything correctly.

As far as I know, the piston and wrist pin are splash lubricated rather than pressure lubricated. The rods are solid and not hollow like some engines so there is no oil passing through them.

fast1075 · November 7th, 2013, 04:16 PM

Could be foam related. The KZ-650/700/750 series would fail rod bearings if overfilled even slightly and run hard. I ran a windage tray and a sump baffle in my 810 turbo/nitrous drag bike successfully when others were killing cranks and rods.

Spinning a rod bearing in a stock motor is going to be a lube failure. There "should" be a spray notch in the rod to direct some oil towards the underside of the piston for cooling and lubrication.

Although it is a possibility the cylinder overheated causing it to seize. That will also destroy rod bearings. I built a 740 motor with MTC 13.5 forged pistons once that would tighten up and spin a bearing. Turned out the piston clearance needed to be quite a bit more than was specified. The pistons were "old school" forgings with very little silicon. They really expanded a lot with a 50 horse shot. Once I figured that out and set it up loose, it ran like a raped ape for two full seasons, but eventually broke a skirt from being loose.

FvnnyL3tt3r1ng · November 7th, 2013, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quarterliter

I'm not convinced you are correct. That piston looked like it had experienced very high heat caused by oil starvation. I have heard of the oil light coming on during heavy breaking, but I think that the time spent doing a stoppie is relatively small compared to time doing a wheelie. Justin do you do stoppies for extended periods of time?

The brakes on this bike don't stoppie well, so no; not a chance.

In both my engines the issues are in cylinder one. Is it a coincidence that it is last in line to be fed oil in the camshafts? What happens when you overfill anyways?

jkv45 · November 7th, 2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

The brakes on this bike don't stoppie well, so no; not a chance.

In both my engines the issues are in cylinder one. Is it a coincidence that it is last in line to be fed oil in the camshafts? What happens when you overfill anyways?

If the level is high enough the oil will become aerated (foamy/filled with air) and the engine will lose oil pressure.

The_big_dill · November 16th, 2013, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkv45

If the level is high enough the oil will become aerated (foamy/filled with air) and the engine will lose oil pressure.

This is because the crank comes into contact with the oil.

FvnnyL3tt3r1ng · November 17th, 2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_big_dill

This is because the crank comes into contact with the oil.

ahhh didnt know that

November 7th, 2013, 01:17 PM	#123
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	The oil pickup is in the rear of the engine so a wheelie would cause the pickup to be under more oil and not less. Like I said, running on its side is the biggest threat - say after a *failed* wheelie. Justin was experiencing high engine temps from an unknown cause prior to his rebuild. The engine also had a rolled bearing. I don't know if it was the same cylinder or not. Ironically, the high engine temps forced a rebuild before he damaged his crank. He was definitely quite lucky in that respect. But because he uses full synthetic oil, I don't believe the problem was positional. I believe that something clogged up an oil passage and that was what did him in. I have seen other bikes where the oil filter is installed incorrectly which crams debris at high pressure into the bearings and crank passages. I don't know if this was a factor with Justin's bike or not. It could have happened prior to him getting it even if he did everything correctly. As far as I know, the piston and wrist pin are splash lubricated rather than pressure lubricated. The rods are solid and not hollow like some engines so there is no oil passing through them. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

November 7th, 2013, 04:16 PM	#124
fast1075 ninjette.org guru Name: harry Location: Central Florida Join Date: Sep 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250, 2004 Buell XB12s, Honda 110 Elite Posts: 332	Could be foam related. The KZ-650/700/750 series would fail rod bearings if overfilled even slightly and run hard. I ran a windage tray and a sump baffle in my 810 turbo/nitrous drag bike successfully when others were killing cranks and rods. Spinning a rod bearing in a stock motor is going to be a lube failure. There "should" be a spray notch in the rod to direct some oil towards the underside of the piston for cooling and lubrication. Although it is a possibility the cylinder overheated causing it to seize. That will also destroy rod bearings. I built a 740 motor with MTC 13.5 forged pistons once that would tighten up and spin a bearing. Turned out the piston clearance needed to be quite a bit more than was specified. The pistons were "old school" forgings with very little silicon. They really expanded a lot with a 50 horse shot. Once I figured that out and set it up loose, it ran like a raped ape for two full seasons, but eventually broke a skirt from being loose. __________________________________________________ "They don't pay me enough to ride this thing!" Kenny Roberts after winning the Indy Mile on the TZ750 powered Grand National bike.

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November 7th, 2013, 08:36 AM	#122
quarterliter ninjette.org guru Name: Kevin Location: Madison Join Date: Apr 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2004 Ninja 250 Posts: 465	I'm not convinced you are correct. That piston looked like it had experienced very high heat caused by oil starvation. I have heard of the oil light coming on during heavy breaking, but I think that the time spent doing a stoppie is relatively small compared to time doing a wheelie. Justin do you do stoppies for extended periods of time?