Lots of oil change questions.

[MrAtom]

So I shouldn't be using vegetable oil? Whoops...

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

any rated JASO-MA/MA2 oil will do just fine

True! (Provided the viscosity is suitable to your belief structure).

I've never experienced clutch slip running non-motorcycle-specific oils, though.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

So I shouldn't be using vegetable oil? Whoops...

Save that for fuel when you get a diesel motorcycle!

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by dcj13

I run SN-rated 20W50 automotive oil in my Ninjette and KLR250.
I run 15W50 full synthetic in my K75 (only because the non-synth fogs up the oil level sight glass on the K75: Kawasaki seems to use better plastic than BMW in their sight glasses).

Well, that's another story then.

Any standard auto oils is a terrible idea in the Ninja - and it has nothing to do with clutch slippage and Friction Modifiers. All oils 40-grade and above don't have them anyway, but the issue is the lack of proper levels of additives (ZDDP) for a solid-tappet/rocker type engine like the Ninja.

Automotive oils are now required to have lower levels of ZDDP in order to extend the life of the emissions catalyst. The current levels are not adequate to prevent galling of the cam and non-roller lifter/rockers of the type used in most cycle engines. The higher the valve spring pressure (high revving or high performance engines) the more critical ZDDP is to prevent damage.

A 20W-50 auto oil is the worst of both worlds if the temps are anything but hot - poor cold weather flow and inadequate levels of additives to prevent engine damage. (EDIT:A 50-grade also builds excessive pressure when hot and moves heat away slower)

You would be much better to run almost anything else...

This is why I keep chiming-in here.

It's easy to find a good alternative to cycle-specific oil (if you don't want to spend the money)- just use a diesel oil like Rotella T6.

[fast1075]

I have tried several oils in my 250 since I bought it with varying results. Without a long treatise I will say my 250 likes Rotella the best so far. It consumed some oil when I used Amsoil, or 4T Castrol. It now goes between change intervals most times without needing oil added with Rotella. The motor also makes less mechanical noise than with Amsoil.

It exceeds all requirements for oil and is inexpensive compared to a lot of specialty oils, and it is as close as the neighborhood auto parts store or Wally World.

[agentbad]

I have been using this.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by agentbad

I have been using this.

Good car oil, but it still doesn't have safe levels of ZDDP for a cycle.

[MrAtom]

... Next let's talk about hard vs gentle break-in

[dcj13]

Ahh!

ZDDP: lots of interesting stuff about that on the internet. 30 years ago, detergent level was all the rage in oil discussions (albeit before the internet).

Keep up the interesting posts!

[agentbad]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Good car oil, but it still doesn't have safe levels of ZDDP for a cycle.

Safe as in needs more?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by agentbad

Safe as in needs more?

Standard auto oils (even synthetics) only have about 800 ppm of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorus) - which isn't enough for cycle use.

Diesel oils like Rotella have 1200 ppm. Some cycle-specific oils have close to 2000 ppm.

1200 ppm is safe. 800 ppm is not.

Just use a synthetic diesel oil like Rotella T6 (EDIT: it's JASO-MA rated) and you are good for almost any conditions.

[Ghostt]

Okay I'll make easy for everyone, the ninja 250 has a WET CLUTCH which means it's in the oil, so wrong oil, WILL cause slippage, it's that easy.

no bias

any oil rated JASO-MA/MA2 oil will do just fine, unless somebody from this forum is gonna send you free oil ��

[dcj13]

Some non-JASO-MA/MA2 oils could cause clutch slippage. Regular old automotive Castrol 20W50 works just fine for me in the Ninjette and KLR250.

If I were to accidentally put in a really light viscosity energy-saving super-duper slippery oil and I were to experience clutch slippage, I'd slap myself on the forehead , drain the oil, put in my normal oil, and go on with my slippage-free lifestyle. No harm (but a foul!).

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dcj13

Some non-JASO-MA/MA2 oils could cause clutch slippage. Regular old automotive Castrol 20W50 works just fine for me in the Ninjette and KLR250.

If I were to accidentally put in a really light viscosity energy-saving super-duper slippery oil and I were to experience clutch slippage, I'd slap myself on the forehead , drain the oil, put in my normal oil, and go on with my slippage-free lifestyle. No harm (but a foul!).

I concur

[flitecontrol]

Speaking from personal experience, once the clutch starts to slip due to the additives in "energy conserving" oil, the only remedy is replacing the clutch discs. It took several thousand miles of the wrong oil before the clutch began to slip. By then, the plates were apparently saturated with the additives.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Speaking from personal experience, once the clutch starts to slip due to the additives in "energy conserving" oil, the only remedy is replacing the clutch discs. It took several thousand miles of the wrong oil before the clutch began to slip. By then, the plates were apparently saturated with the additives.

A good excuse to upgrade, don't forget the springs too

[agentbad]

Rotella T6 is $21.74 at Walmart right now.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by dcj13

Some non-JASO-MA/MA2 oils could cause clutch slippage. Regular old automotive Castrol 20W50 works just fine for me in the Ninjette and KLR250.

Dave - really - don't use that.

Use a diesel oil like Rotella T6 and you will get less overall engine wear (as well as better mileage) - and your cams/rockers will live happily ever after...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Standard auto oils (even synthetics) only have about 800 ppm of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorus) - which isn't enough for cycle use.

can you please explain this further- why would a moto need extra last-level protection vs a car (ie head rpm plz), and what zinc does to a wet clutch. what about molyb content?

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Dave - really - don't use that.

Use a diesel oil like Rotella T6 and you will get less overall engine wear (as well as better mileage) - and your cams/rockers will live happily ever after...

Have a friend who uses Castrol GTX 10W-40 in his CMX250. Currently has over 100,000 miles on the odometer, and hasn't had any engine parts wear out, including the clutch. Anybody with a Ninja racking up that many miles?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

can you please explain this further- why would a moto need extra last-level protection vs a car (ie head rpm plz), and what zinc does to a wet clutch. what about molyb content?

Current auto engines have roller valvetrains - cycles do not (exception Honda CBR250R).

Zinc and Phosphorous are sacrificial and will protect surfaces with high pressure contact before they have adequate oil flow.

Zinc does not have an effect on the clutch. Moly ("Friction Modifiers" - i.e. "Energy Conserving") does, but it's only in 30-grade and below auto oils - so it shouldn't even be an issue.

Engines with a ton of miles in a relatively short period have less wear in general. Less cold starts = less wear. Lower viscosity oil and oil with high levels of ZDDP are most beneficial for high performance engines (high pressure valve springs) during cold starts.

The only way to tell if you are getting damage to the valvetrain from incorrect oil is to pull the valve cover and look at the cams, but it very easy to prevent by using the proper oil with the proper additives for your particular engine - which is not auto oil for a cycle.

[alex.s]

i believe many KTMs have rollers in the heads also

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Engines with a ton of miles in a relatively short period have less wear in general. Less cold starts = less wear. Lower viscosity oil and oil with high levels of ZDDP are most beneficial for high performance engines (high pressure valve springs) during cold starts.

The only way to tell if you are getting damage to the valvetrain from incorrect oil is to pull the valve cover and look at the cams, but it very easy to prevent by using the proper oil with the proper additives for your particular engine - which is not auto oil for a cycle.

How about testing for the presence of worn metal in the oil, as was done in the test below?

The CMX250 I referred to above was bought new in 1987 and ridden regularly until the owner had a stroke last year. So the miles were put on over a period of about 25 years. That's in the neighborhood of 4,000 miles per year. That's not "a ton of miles in a relatively short period".

This is the only study I'm aware of that compares motorcycle specific oil and automotive oil. The argument for the motorcycle specific oil has been the same for a long time; they contain higher levels of ZDDP and therefore provide better engine lubrication. That claim is pretty well debunked by the study. http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

then why don't oems put in 5w-40? why don't they say to use 5w-40? why do they say 10w-40? why would they even make 10w-40, and not say, 1w-40 or 2w-40 instead? (they actually do make 0w-40 oils for specific engines) since this is going along your prescribed logic... it should be even better! right? i believe that is your logic right? thinner when cold is better because... ... ... it flows easier?
i wonder why that is? could it be that you are wrong? could it be that it doesn't matter where they measure a rating at but instead what the viscosity gradient relative to temperature gradient would be? ie... the weight?
could it be that an oem that produces millions of motors ... knows how to spec an oil?

do you think it's possible that an oem that spec'ed our bikes at 10w-40 knows what viscosity the oil will be at when it gets cold? and that they know enough about plane bearings to correctly plan out how that oil and plane bearing will deal with temperature changes?

Hmm, @alex.s

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Amen to that brother, I think the next topic should be tires LOL

I'd chime in on that one!

Originally Posted by MrAtom

... Next let's talk about hard vs gentle break-in

Or use of the rear brake!

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

...The argument for the motorcycle specific oil has been the same for a long time; they contain higher levels of ZDDP and therefore provide better engine lubrication. That claim is pretty well debunked by the study. http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

Thank you for the link to that excellent article. MCN is the best moto-mag, IMHO.

The article makes me feel even better about running 20W50 automotive oil in my Kwaks.

Talking about oil really is like talking about religion. Bring on the scripture!

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by ally99

Or use of the rear brake!

People who don't rear-brake have never ridden in the rain before

[ally99]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

People who don't rear-brake have never ridden in the rain before

it always creates for an interesting read when folks get to arguing over it. I remember being so confused as a noob in wondering which side was "right"...then I learned.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by ally99

it always creates for an interesting read when folks get to arguing over it. I remember being so confused as a noob in wondering which side was "right"...then I learned.

There's sides?

[ally99]

Well of course! Every argument has sides.

[alex.s]

you wouldn't believe how many hardley guys have told me not to touch the front brake

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you wouldn't believe how many hardley guys have told me not to touch the front brake

Oh, that side. I'm with you guys now. Thanks.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by ally99

it always creates for an interesting read when folks get to arguing over it. I remember being so confused as a noob in wondering which side was "right"...then I learned.

I knew from my days of commuting on a pedalbike that both are important

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

How about testing for the presence of worn metal in the oil, as was done in the test below?

The CMX250 I referred to above was bought new in 1987 and ridden regularly until the owner had a stroke last year. So the miles were put on over a period of about 25 years. That's in the neighborhood of 4,000 miles per year. That's not "a ton of miles in a relatively short period".

This is the only study I'm aware of that compares motorcycle specific oil and automotive oil. The argument for the motorcycle specific oil has been the same for a long time; they contain higher levels of ZDDP and therefore provide better engine lubrication. That claim is pretty well debunked by the study. http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

A couple of problems with that -

Galling of the cams and rockers won't necessarily show up in UOA.

As I stated, the higher performance and higher revving the engine, the more important ZDDP is for protection. A CMX250 doesn't have the same valve spring pressure as a Ninja does so it's not going to be as critical.

THAT STUDY WAS FROM 1994! OILS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN! That's what I've been telling you! I ran GTX back in the 80's also, but oils were different then.

This isn't an argument. I'm just trying to give you information that may save you big problems later. If you doubt what I'm telling you, do your own research - but you'll need to do more than reading one article from 1994 to confirm or deny what I've said.

The answer is so simple - use a diesel-rated oil. It's easy to find and cheap. No reason to use anything else unless you want to step up.

Again, maybe someone will benefit, but I think I'm done wasting my time trying to help some of you guys...

[fast1075]

When I worked for Honda, All 4 stroke oil was rebadged Castrol GTX, the 2 stroke oil was Pennzoil. Both were excellent oils.

Today's Castrol GTX is not the same oil as jkv45 has so hard tried to explain.

To me oil is like tires. Run the best you can get, use the wrong kind, and it can cost you. Your choice.

[alex.s]

i wonder what kind of oil they use in a free-valve engine

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by jkv45

A couple of problems with that -

Galling of the cams and rockers won't necessarily show up in UOA.

As I stated, the higher performance and higher revving the engine, the more important ZDDP is for protection. A CMX250 doesn't have the same valve spring pressure as a Ninja does so it's not going to be as critical.

THAT STUDY WAS FROM 1994! OILS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN! That's what I've been telling you! I ran GTX back in the 80's also, but oils were different then.

This isn't an argument. I'm just trying to give you information that may save you big problems later. If you doubt what I'm telling you, do your own research - but you'll need to do more than reading one article from 1994 to confirm or deny what I've said.

The answer is so simple - use a diesel-rated oil. It's easy to find and cheap. No reason to use anything else unless you want to step up.

Again, maybe someone will benefit, but I think I'm done wasting my time trying to help some of you guys...

I realize the study is from 1994. However, to my knowledge, no one has done a follow up study since then, so it's the most current information available. If you can provide a link to a more recent scientific study, I'm sure it would be welcomed by the members here. It is interesting to note that the motorcycle companies were saying the additives in their oils made them superior to automotive oil back then, and still do, but there is no hard evidence to support their claims.

The Kawasaki manual recommends oil in XXW-40 or XXW-50 weight. It doesn't specify diesel specific oil. That said, some oils in the recommended weights are going to be diesel specific oil, so your point about diesel oils is applicable to a degree.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

I realize the study is from 1994. However, to my knowledge, no one has done a follow up study since then, so it's the most current information available. If you can provide a link to a more recent scientific study, I'm sure it would be welcomed by the members here. It is interesting to note that the motorcycle companies were saying the additives in their oils made them superior to automotive oil back then, and still do, but there is no hard evidence to support their claims.

The Kawasaki manual recommends oil in XXW-40 or XXW-50 weight. It doesn't specify diesel specific oil. That said, some oils in the recommended weights are going to be diesel specific oil, so your point about diesel oils is applicable to a degree.

If you want to base your decisions on a 1994 oil comparison - go ahead.

Auto oils were required to make significant changes since then, diesel oils were not.

Do your own research. Prove me wrong.

[Ninja Rob]

Can I use one of these spark plugs for the motorcycle? Or is there some sort of gauging issue with fuel/air ratio?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Ninja Rob

Can I use one of these spark plugs for the motorcycle? Or is there some sort of gauging issue with fuel/air ratio?

I wouldn't.

Best to use only NGK CR8HSA

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by jkv45

If you want to base your decisions on a 1994 oil comparison - go ahead.

Auto oils were required to make significant changes since then, diesel oils were not.

Do your own research. Prove me wrong.

I don't see where you've proved me wrong, or provided any studies that support your position. I provided information, which you rejected out of hand. What concrete information do you have to back up your position?