How Many Miles is Too Many Miles?

[AMMOCAN]

Ok, so now that I have CASH in hand to purchase my motorcycle it is looking like the seller is going to flake on me. He just told me for the first time last night that he is going to have a dealership handle the sale, which he hinted will include added fees that I will have to pay for. I kindly reminded him of our original agreement and told him he could either make it work where I walk out the door with motorcycle in hand for the original agreed upon price or I walk with my CASH in hand. Well, I haven't heard back from him, so it looks like I am back to looking for another motorcycle.

I found a used '08 250R, but it has about 15,800 miles on it and is currently with it's second owner. I believe suggested market value is between $2k to $2800, but the $2800 is for a total of 4200 miles, so how much is a fair amount to knock off for so many miles? Also, how many miles is too many miles where you should just walk away from it?

The reason I ask is because I don't want to even assume that I can compare the same milage/usage of a car to a motorcycle and the only experience I have with motorcycles is with dirt bikes and we went by hours instead of miles.

Thanx,

[austexjg]

Was defintely used as a commuter - seems like high miles, but most in that price range ($2200-$2300) are going to have miles or body damage. It all comes down to how well it was maintained.

[AMMOCAN]

Thanx guys.

[Live2ride]

If I had any reason to think there may be something wrong mechanically I would ask them if I could go with them to get a mechanic to take a look at it. If they said no and acted suspicious, or didnt let me test ride it, I'd walk away.

Edit: I have seen at least 5-6 bikes the past couple months with less then 2.5k miles selling for $2500, and they had little to no damage. This might not be the same as your area but If I bought a bike with 15k miles I wouldn't pay more than $2200 for it and that's only if it comes with some good mods.

[Reswob]

That's pretty high for a '08. I would make sure the seller has records of all the services being done. BY 15k it should have had the 600 mile service, and one big service (valve adjustment) around 10k or so, along with several oil changes and new brakes and tires.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Reswob

That's pretty high for a '08. I would make sure the seller has records of all the services being done. BY 15k it should have had the 600 mile service, and one big service (valve adjustment) around 10k or so, along with several oil changes and new brakes and tires.

actually, at 15k it should have had 2 valve adjustments. one at 7.5k and the other at 15k.

if the 15k has not been done, factor it's cost into the deal.

maintenance records are a must or no deal.

[AMMOCAN]

Thanx guys!

I finally just called then current owner after they requested I call them to find out more info. on it. Turns out, the current owners mother is the one who I have been talking to, and was the one who is in a sense in charge of selling it.

I asked her if I should be talking to her son or her and she said her, so I fired away and started asking questions. To make a painful conversation short, she basically admitted that they have no service records and in fact since they bought it from the original owner all they have done was change the oil and filter, which according to her that is all that needed to be done, lol. I then asked if they received any records or know of the shop where the original owner had it serviced and she had no idea and then said I should probably talk to her son when he gets home.

So, basically I think this poor motorcycle has been used and abused for the last year to year and a half since the current owner has had it. I think I am going to pass on this one as I don't even feel like insulting them with such a low offer, as they currently are asking for $2950. I would have probably offered $2200 max with service records and if the bike checked out, but now knowing that there isn't any records then I don't even think I would offer them anything over $1200.

[spooph]

Good stuff here! As mentioned, keep an eye on the tires and brakes, they can tell you a lot about a bike's wear. General cleanliness of the bike (look inside, by the handlebars, and see what it look like behind the fairings). Test ride it, test front and rear brakes independently. Good idea about mentioning to take it to a mechanic to have it checked out, that will usually expose any shady dealings.

However, as far as your original question goes, how many is too many? Um, is there such a thing? A more accurate question would be: How long can the engine run without oil. And the answer will probably be around 30 minutes or so.... What I'm trying to say is that these bikes will run forever with proper maintenance.... So you're really just looking for evidence of lapses in maintenance...

[kkim]

keep looking. you need to find a used bike that has been "loved" by it's previous (usually best to find an original owner bike) owner. you'll know it when you see it by the condition and they can provide you service records of the work done.

while price is a guideline when buying a bike, I never use that as the deciding factor. Too many things that can come back to haunt you with the lowest priced example of whatever you're looking to purchase.

[slolane]

I agree, pass on this one.

As a side note I have sold a lot of bikes and a few times done the deal at a dealership that helped facilitate the purchase/sale. IF this were the case that should have been disclosed up front.

[AMMOCAN]

Originally Posted by slolane

I agree, pass on this one.
As a side note I have sold a lot of bikes and a few times done the deal at a dealership that helped facilitate the purchase/sale. IF this were the case that should have been disclosed up front.

@ slolane Well, the guy said he is doing it that way because he is tired of being screwed over. However, when we met in person and agreed on terms he never mentioned this is what he was going to do and a matter of fact he told me he would have the title and hook me up on the bill of sale, so I wouldn't have to pay so much in 'Use Tax'. Then when I tell him I have the agreed upon cash he surprises me with all this BS about having to not only go through a dealership, but that I would have to pay the dealers fees. All I have to say to that is F%&* him!

Ok, so I am leaving the '08 with no service records and 15K miles in the dust, but I did do some more shopping around today. First, I went to the dealer who still has a brand new '09 with warranty. However, even with cash in hand the dealer still was wanting to charge me the original $4,099 plus DMV and processing fees. Now, I know that no matter what I will have to always pay the DMV fees, but I was a little ticked off when they told me that the $4,099 price was the best they could do on a motorcycle they have had for close to two years! I mean I had close to $4k in cash and all they offered was to front me the difference and then make arrangements to pay it back.

So, after calmly walking out I hit up a private seller. The PS is selling a '10 SE model with only 100 miles and warranty for $4500. It is in show room condition and is actually his wife's, who doesn't want to ride anymore. I didn't get into specifics about it, as it seemed very personal and I didn't want to pride into their personal affairs. After speaking with him and proving to him that I am willing to pay $3600 CASH on the spot, he turned me down and said the lowest he would go is $4K and that is firm! So, that is another strike for me as if I wanted to pay that price then I would rather haggle with a dealer, so at least I would have a chance to not only get more for my money, but I would at least get a motorcycle that no one else has ridden and possibly even a '11 model.

I am getting quite frustrated with striking out on negotiating, especially when I read on the forums that the rest of you are getting fair or even some amazing deals. I know my specific area is a lot more competitive than where most of you live, but C'MON MAN throw me a bone, lol.

[kawboyCAFE]

15,800 miles isnt **** on a bike these days. unless it was a track bike or something. and as long as it was maintained. even a 250 can rack up a heck of alot more than that before showing engine fatigue. i can put that many miles on a bike in a year. but then again i ride all year except for on snow: commuting, touring, short road trips, etc.

[Reswob]

$4,500? Holy ****! What is the cost of a new bike in Cali these days!?

[Live2ride]

Originally Posted by Reswob

$4,500? Holy ****! What is the cost of a new bike in Cali these days!?

That's what I said, I know I can get a 2010 OTD for less than that brand spankin new ($4k). I'm sure a brand new 2011 would sell OTD for less than 4500. I think people who get into the sport, then decide they no longer want to a month later, decide that they should sell their bike for OTD price + gas and maintanence they did on the bike....I simply laugh at any ad's for a stock 250 over $3,500. Whats even more sad is seeing a pre gen with 5,000+ miles selling for $3,000 when I've seen new gens with less than 500 miles selling for that price.

[almost40]

Look at the chain and sprockets. If they are in good shape then the owner probably cared about upkeep. Rusty chain means no deal. Same thing with the sprockets.
I bought my new 08 when they were impossible to find for $4200 otd. Had to drive 200 miles to pick it up after 1000 phone calls to find it.

[AMMOCAN]

Thanx for all the info. guys.

The thing about the '08 is that it has over 15K miles on it with no service records, and the current owner has admitted that the only thing they have done to it since they purchased it from the original owner in '09 was change the oil and filter. I sent them an email stating that if they take it to a dealer and get it serviced and checked out then I might consider looking at it. Of course that all depends on what the service report says. I am not interested in pouring a lot of money into something if it is going to cost me the same amount or more than if I was to just purchase a newer bike that has been taken care of.

Yeah, the private seller for the '10 is dead set on selling it for $4k, which I would still have to pay for the warranty transfer and DMV fees. I mean the bike is relatively still new, but I tried explaining to him that for the amount he is asking someone can easily go to a dealership and purchase the same bike with 0 miles and a full warranty with all fees paid for $4500. I still can't believe showing him the $3600 in CASH didn't even make him budge off of his $4K price.

Even so, I can't believe that the dealers in my area are unwilling to make a deal on their '09 & '10 models under $4500 OTD, even when I am paying CASH! The best deal I have been quoted on after personally visiting five different shops located in my metro area is $4500 OTD for a non-used '10 Ninja 250R SE. This same shop said they would match any price given from another dealer located in Northern California, but I have been unable to find a shop that would even go lower for the same exact bike. Matter of fact the '09 I looked at one dealership, they wouldn't sell me the bike lower than their $4099 price and that was before DMV fees and what not.

I have been looking since the end of January and I have yet been able to find a good deal! I thought I had one and when I got my CASH the seller flaked on me. I want to get a bike, especially since I have already purchased all my gear, but in no way do I want to pay an outrageous price for it. However, I feel that both time and weather are not on my side right now, as well as the rising gas prices.

[Sailariel]

Ammocan: Pure and simple--No service records, No deal. Steer clear because that one will come back to bite you.

The greedy dealer who has the two year old "New" bike--What will he do when he floors a 2011? Still ask the same price? I think that I would avoid that shop.

How about using the internet and finding an out of state dealer--say 7 to 800miles away, and taking a bus trip there if he has the bike you are looking for. Say he has an 09 or 10 leftover GREEN Ninja. You can dicker on the internet just as well as you can face to face. When you strike a deal, print the deal, and go get the bike. That's what I did in 08 when I searched for a Ninja and got the last one in Maine.

The dealer also offered a 50% Discount on gear if you bought the bike. I bought a Helmet, Jacket, Pants, and Gloves. I had Boots. It was a good deal, and the ride home was grand.

Shop around. You will find the bike you want. Miles mean little if there are service records. My 08 with 12000 miles, complete service records, expensive mods, is for sale at the H-D Honda dealer for $2800. The bike has never been dropped and is spotless. Oil (Synthetic) was changed every 3000 miles along with the filter. It was ridden distances--50 miles at a time minimum at highway speeds. Six trips were 1100mi. That bike will give its new owner good service for a long time if he/she maintains it.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

How about using the internet and finding an out of state dealer--say 7 to 800miles away, and taking a bus trip there if he has the bike you are looking for.

No can do; at least legally and simply. He won't be able to register it in California until it has 7500 miles on it. The Ninjette isn't a 50-state bike yet; there still are different versions for CA/NY and the handful of other states with more restrictive emissions.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr29.htm

[Live2ride]

Originally Posted by AMMOCAN

I have been looking since the end of January and I have yet been able to find a good deal!

I have been searching for a bike daily since I took the msf course. I took the msf course 8 months and 7 days ago and get my license in 9 days, I have found tons of great looking deals which turned out to have there holes. I have yet to actually go check out a used bike in person because, through e-mail alone I have discovered that either none of them were worth while or they sold within 24 hours of the for sale ad being posted. It's 65F out today and I'm dying to ride. Bottom line, you have to be patient to find a great deal. I hope we can both find one real soon.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by Alex

No can do; at least legally and simply. He won't be able to register it in California until it has 7500 miles on it. The Ninjette isn't a 50-state bike yet; there still are different versions for CA/NY and the handful of other states with more restrictive emissions.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr29.htm

Wow, Had no idea that CA was that strict. I just don't understand why someone like Kawi just doesn't make a 50 State bike. For all practical purposes, the CA version is, in a sense, a different model. That costs a lot. With a 50 State model, the cost would be spread out--I would think. Life gets more complicated each day. Are they going to give me a hard time with my Honda when I ride to San Jose this summer?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Are they going to give me a hard time with my Honda when I ride to San Jose this summer?

Not unless you try and register it. But as it is a new model, it very well may be a 50-state bike, so even if you did move here and want to register it while still under 7500 miles, it might not be a problem. You can tell on the emissions sticker (if it's visible).

[setasai]

Everybody keeps saying to look for service records but what constitutes service records? Especially if the owner does most/all of the maintenance. I ask this because short of the valve adjustments, I am and plan on doing all the maintenance which is mostly oil changes anyways. So what kind of service records would be considered well cared for from a buyer's point of view?

[AMMOCAN]

Thanx Sailariel and Alex. I too wish you all the best in your search Live2ride.

@ Sailariel:

Well, I never heard back from the '08 owner, so I guess that they didn't like my email in regards to them needing to take it to a shop and get it checked out and serviced. I feel bad for the sorry individual who pays for that bike, but then again it is their fault for buying it. No service records = walk away!

The shop that has the '09 SE 'New' model does have the '11 models on the floor and they are still selling the '09 at the original MSRP. They are doing the same thing with their '10 models as well.

Today, I decided to go back to the shop that quoted me an OTD price of $4500 for a '10 SE model because after figuring out that the DMV fees would cost me close to $500 alone I figured getting the 'New' '10 SE model for $4K was a decent enough buy, and so far the only best deal. However, when I went back to the shop and told them I was ready to buy I ended up finding out that they were not going to be able to sell me the bike for $4500 OTD! WTF! Needless to say, I was quite pissed and frustrated, especially since I drove all the way there, but I felt it wasn't worth exhausting myself arguing with the sales manager, so I left.

Yes, I knew about the California out of State vehicle laws, which is why I haven't even bothered looking for a bike out of State. However, I didn't realize that Kawasaki is making a specific model just for California that is different than what other States are getting. This is very interesting and just adds yet another factor on why the same motorcycle costs a lot more here in California than in any other State.

Tomorrow, I will be meeting up with the seller who is selling the '10 SE model for the second time to see if we can't work something out. I may end up paying a little more than I had originally planned and hoped, but it is crystal clear that I am not going to find any deals at any of the dealerships in my metro area, and there just isn't that many people selling 250s around my metro area. So, I am ok with paying a little more for what I want, as it will still be cheaper than buying from the dealer, and at least I can start riding and using the gear that I have already purchased.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by setasai

Everybody keeps saying to look for service records but what constitutes service records? Especially if the owner does most/all of the maintenance. I ask this because short of the valve adjustments, I am and plan on doing all the maintenance which is mostly oil changes anyways. So what kind of service records would be considered well cared for from a buyer's point of view?

for me, if I see a log book or log sheet with the dates/mileage the service was performed and receipts for the parts used to do the service, that would be enough for me... that and getting a good feeling from that the seller is on the up and up.

ammocan... peruse what is available from the pool of bikes at the time you are ready to buy and make your choice of the best example that you can find, even if it does mean a few hundred more than what you think is "fair". in a few months, you'll forget about how much you paid as you are riding along with that big smile under your helmet. trust me... money doesn't matter at that point.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by kkim

for me, if I see a log book or log sheet with the dates/mileage the service was performed and receipts for the parts used to do the service, that would be enough for me... that and getting a good feeling from that the seller is on the up and up.

Oh ok, I see. If that's the case then I dont see why everybody doesnt have service records. Good thing I've been doing atleast that so far even though I dont intend on selling anytime soon.

[kkim]

Brian,

It's a good idea for anyone that does their own service to keep their work documented like this in case you ever need to make a warranty claim to the manufacturer and didn't have it serviced at a dealer.

most times when people don't keep records it's because the service wasn't done or they are too lazy to keep their records organized enough in a folder. if I run into a seller like this, I usually don't buy from them as that is a good indicator of the care they gave their bike. I've broken this rule in the past and have paid ($$$$$) for the impulse buying that occurred that made me purchase it against my better judgment.

[AMMOCAN]

Thank you KKim!

[kawboyCAFE]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Ammocan: Pure and simple--No service records, No deal. Steer clear because that one will come back to bite you....

not neccessarily. i never use a dealer for any repairs or service, i do all mine myself, so i dont have any service records from a shop. of course, i do right down in my manual what i did and when i did it and mileage, so i guess that could be considered service records, just not professional ones.

[kawboyCAFE]

Originally Posted by kkim

for me, if I see a log book or log sheet with the dates/mileage the service was performed and receipts for the parts used to do the service, that would be enough for me....

the dates and mileage thing i understand. i do that myself. but receipts? honestly, who keeps every receipt for every purchase they make. very few people. most people dont. not very many people are worried about keeping up with the receipt from buying a filter or cable or something.

also, some of the best maintained bikes can be the biggest turds. nobody is going to agree with that, but i speak from personal experience.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

the dates and mileage thing i understand. i do that myself. but receipts? honestly, who keeps every receipt for every purchase they make. very few people. most people dont. not very many people are worried about keeping up with the receipt from buying a filter or cable or something.

also, some of the best maintained bikes can be the biggest turds. nobody is going to agree with that, but i speak from personal experience.

no one said anything about every receipt, but the more the better. besides, like I said, if you do your own work and have a warranty issue, you better be able to substantiate your record keeping. any joe blow could write up a fake logsheet and claim it's legit w/o receipts.

[littledog]

Originally Posted by setasai

Everybody keeps saying to look for service records but what constitutes service records? Especially if the owner does most/all of the maintenance. I ask this because short of the valve adjustments, I am and plan on doing all the maintenance which is mostly oil changes anyways. So what kind of service records would be considered well cared for from a buyer's point of view?

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

not neccessarily. i never use a dealer for any repairs or service, i do all mine myself, so i dont have any service records from a shop. of course, i do right down in my manual what i did and when i did it and mileage, so i guess that could be considered service records, just not professional ones.

Those are considered "Service Records" I remember in 2001, The Yanmar diesel in my sailboat siezed. We sailed into Nassau, and the Bahama Yanmar dealer pulled the engine and completely disassembled it. He discovered a "latent manufacturer's defect" and put it in writing. I submitted that and my Engine Log (I do all my own work on the diesel) to the insurance company.
They paid for a brand new engine, minus $1000. The engine was 10 years old and 65000 hours on the clock. A new engine costs $9000. That was a real good deal--I was also very lucky.

[AMMOCAN]

Ok, Great News Guys! Tomorrow I will be picking up my new motorcycle. I am so excited! I went back this morning and spoke with the seller of the '10 250R SE with 100 miles and 6 months left on the warranty. After a long discussion we agreed on $3700 for it. Of course I still have to pay all the DMV fees and what not, but I think it was a fair deal all around. Most importantly my search for a bike is OVER! That is if this seller doesn't flake on me like the last one. Regardless, I am super excited that I will soon be able to start riding and using the gear I purchased. I will hopefully be posting up some picks of it tomorrow.

CRAP! This means I have to change my avatar AGAIN! LOL.

[kkim]

[Sailariel]

Congratulations

[S14]

It's going to rain tomorrow, be careful.

[AMMOCAN]

Thanx KKim, Sailariel, and S14.

@ S14 Yeah, the moment I finally get my motorcycle it decides it wants to rain. It seems it wants to rain all this week except for maybe Thursday. Well, like the good 'ole proverb states, "Can't have your cake and eat it to" lol. I am going to have a friend of mine, who is more experienced than I, ride it home for me. It is only about a five minute ride, but all routes from the seller's house to my house are high traffic routes, so with the roads being wet and all I would feel more comfortable knowing that my friend is behind the handlebars.

[kkim]

any chance of transporting it in a pickup truck?

[AMMOCAN]

@ KKIM I wish there was, but no one that I know that lives close by has a truck. Even those who I do know that have a truck live hours away and don't even have ramps for it. I also don't have the extra money to purchase or even rent some ramps, let alone offer to pay my friends for the gas that it would take them to make the trip here. Yes, I know friends should be willing to help friends out regardless of the price, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable with not at least offering to pay for their gas, and since I don't have the money to pay for it then it's only right to not bother asking.

I think my friend and I should be alright. If nothing else, I will just follow behind him with my hazards on and we will take our time getting home. We only have to cross one main intersection to get on a two-lane road that will take us all the way to where I live. Once we get on the two-lane road there is only about five four-way stop lights and then we can turn off to where I live.

[kkim]

hope everything goes well for you guys. pics once you have it home safe and sound.

gl