Sportbiking "the real world" by Gary Jaehne

[g21-30]

One of the subjects Gary talks about is "learning the limits of your brakes, especially the front one!" His exercise for this is a clean, dry, smooth and VACANT parking lot. While going in a straight line and NO MORE than 10 MPH, squeeze the front brake as hard as you can. Keep doing this until the front tire either slides or you do a STOPPIE, preferably a STOPPIE!

This afternoon, I proceeded to just such a parking lot, which happens to be a very large and unrented building complex, where I practice MSF drills and U-turns normally. It took about 10 tries, before experiencing my first STOPPIE. Boy that is a wierd feeling with the backend coming off the ground, even if only about 4-6 inches. I kept practicing until I completed a half dozen of these and NEVER had the front tire skid!

Another thing Gary suggests is to get into the habit of ALWAYS covering both the clutch and brake levers with the index finger of each respective hand. It seems this will cut down on your reaction time in an emergency situation. Don't keep pressure on the levers, just let the finger rest across the lever. Also, get in the habit of braking with ONE finger in most situations!

Comments?

[JeffM]

[2WheelGuy]

Perhaps it is my English background. I use two fingers.

[cnichols79us]

Originally Posted by 2WheelGuy

Perhaps it is my English background. I use two fingers.

#2 on the 2 fingers! I mean, I do that also....

[Cab305]

I'm used to resting my fingers on levers from riding bmx. But every time one of the instructors saw me during basic riding class, they corrected me and said thats a no no.
I instinctively kept doing it, nice to know Gary's got my back.

I was trying to consciously stop, so I guess I'll keep doing it. Feels right.

[Daeldren]

I'm used to resting my fingers on levers from riding bmx. But every time one of the instructors saw me during basic riding class, they corrected me and said thats a no no.
I instinctively kept doing it, nice to know Gary's got my back.

Keep in mind that at MSF they are teaching the bare bones basic stuff, thinking that everyone taking the class is a duckling who is just getting their feet wet in riding on two wheels.

[pedaltothemetal]

That's right very good advice!
I always cover the levers when in traffic. On the open road I don't when it
is moving and clear but always ready my fingers the minute I see the need!
My transition to only front braking is already complete since I am a very old school rider.
I always take new ideas and try it, and it certainly does improve reaction time!
All this advice will help new riders. This is as important as farkels,
cause it will keep your farkles from being tarnished!

[littledog]

Originally Posted by Cab305

I'm used to resting my fingers on levers from riding bmx. But every time one of the instructors saw me during basic riding class, they corrected me and said thats a no no.
I instinctively kept doing it, nice to know Gary's got my back.

I was trying to consciously stop, so I guess I'll keep doing it. Feels right.

Questions...

What do the MSF instructors say about this in the Experienced Rider Course?

Is the Ninja 250 really a sport bike in the sense of brakes, having only one not really awesome disk/caliper on the front? It will "stoppie" even with rider weight towards the back? Does anyone when braking always use both brakes?

Does any one ride with first finger and thumb around the throttle, and the other three fingers covering the front brake?

Can you disengage the clutch with any fingers NOT on the lever? I cannot with my rather generous clutch cable slack. Any fingers under the lever and my clutch can't quite disengage due to the finger(s) under the lever. Adjusted wrong? Or just fat fingers?

[backinthesaddleagain]

Dirt bike riding has caused me to always have a couple fingers on each lever. Many times in the dirt you fan the clutch just to get the revs up in certain situations. MSF instructor kept telling me also not to do it, rather than argue I just followed his advice. He also insisted you need 4 fingers to stop. Maybe he has been riding old cruisers?? Any way depending on speed I keep one or two fingers on brake lever. Not keeping a finger on the clutch as much anymore, and I do find that the clutch pull fully disengages best if I have no fingers between the lever and the grip. On the left I typically use 2 fingers when shifting, and 4 when coming to a stop or start.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by littledog

Does anyone when braking always use both brakes?

I always use both brakes. (except at low < 5mph speeds, i mostly use the back brake)

Originally Posted by littledog

I cannot with my rather generous clutch cable slack. Any fingers under the lever and my clutch can't quite disengage due to the finger(s) under the lever. Adjusted wrong? Or just fat fingers?

you can adjust your clutch cable at the top of your lever... see http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10016

[g21-30]

In the book, Gary gives "real world" situations where all of the techniques he teaches paid off by saving him one way or another. Yes, he uses both brakes and sometimes (wet conditions) he uses the front brake in turns, while also rolling on the throttle! He does this to keep the 60/40 balance.

FYI...with the Galfer brake lines and ZX-10R front master cylinder, one finger is enough to stop my bike. The reason MSF teaches all finger braking is mainly because many HDs need all fingers to stop them. Also, MSF doesn't want you covering the brake lever because most of the slow speed exercises that you are doing will cause you to drop the bike, if you touch the front brake. Ask me how I know!

[Momaru]

I'm still working on balancing my braking, but have gotten a lot better using front in greater proportion rear. Discovered once again how frighteningly easy it is to lock up the rear, especially with EBC HH pads on. Coming in straight to a stoplight, sometimes I'll just trail the rear brake to give it some exercise.

No issues using 'em both when I really need to stop though; saved some poor turkey's life yesterday and likely my own too.

Anyone elses' thumb joints get sore guarding brake/clutch? Starting to think my hands are just a tidbit too small for the stock levers. Glad to hear it's 'normal' or even 'recommended' to have a quick finger (or two) on them and not just me being paranoid.

[bdavison]

I sware if I hear one more person say "front brake" only is best Im gonna freakin scream.

TWO BRAKES ARE BEST ALWAYS...PERIOD...END OF DISCUSSION.

And if you dont believe this...take your bike out. Roll a piece of duct tape across the road, and get it up to whatever speed you want to use. Brake when the front wheel crosses the line of tape in any method you want, and you better brake it like your life depends on getting it stopped. When the bike finally comes to a complete stop...get off and run a line of tape where it stopped. Repeat process, and do it for different types of braking....front brake only, rear brake only, and both brakes.

I dont care if you stand the thing up vertical in a most wicked stoppie known to man, it still wont stop faster than both brakes. And if you dump it...start over.

Better yet, mark it off with spray paint in a location you regularly ride across, to serve as a frequent reminder about how myths on the internet about front brake only braking are full of POOP!

[Alex]

Bryan - no matter how adamantly you state your opinion, it doesn't make it automatically correct. It's more complex than you lay it out, and in fact most people with any significant high speed experience disagree with you. You're free and encouraged to continue to share your thoughts, but the discussion certainly doesn't end with only yours.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by littledog

Questions...

What do the MSF instructors say about this in the Experienced Rider Course?

Is the Ninja 250 really a sport bike in the sense of brakes, having only one not really awesome disk/caliper on the front? It will "stoppie" even with rider weight towards the back? Does anyone when braking always use both brakes?

Does any one ride with first finger and thumb around the throttle, and the other three fingers covering the front brake?

Can you disengage the clutch with any fingers NOT on the lever? I cannot with my rather generous clutch cable slack. Any fingers under the lever and my clutch can't quite disengage due to the finger(s) under the lever. Adjusted wrong? Or just fat fingers?

1. My instructors didn't care, they assumed we all knew how to ride. Different set of expectations from the beginner class

2. I almost always use both brakes in a coordinated fashion.

3. Why?

4. As said before, adjust your clutch. Also, having fingers under the lever when you shift act as a stop to keep you from pulling the clutch all the way in during downshifting. Only a tiny pull is necessary anyway.

I sware if I hear one more person say "front brake" only is best Im gonna freakin scream.

If I see anyone spelling the word brake like this: break - I'm going to scream.

Jeffery

[captlombardi]

i used to clutch with my whole hand probably just out of a bad habit. when i got my cbr600f4i i realized i needed to shift with 2 fingers so i could use the other two to hang onto the damn bike! lol...now i shift with 2 fingers on the ninja as well. as far as braking i recently started using only my middle finger on both the cbr and ninja, though i will move my hand to the end of the lever and use 2 fingers sometimes for more leverage to stop faster.

[backinthesaddleagain]

I mainly use the rear brake to "correct" the bike in certain situations. In normal stop I apply mostly front brake, again with the rear their to keep things in balance. In a panic stop I grab a lot of front break and shift my weight to the rear. I am also on the rear brake but not all that strongly. Not saying its right or wrong, just how I do it.


If I see anyone spelling the word brake like this: break - I'm going to scream. - NOW THATS FUNNY, AND TRUE.

[ScraitT]

Originally Posted by bdavison

TWO BRAKES ARE BEST ALWAYS...PERIOD...END OF DISCUSSION.

In a perfect and controlled situation, yes, both brakes will always stop you quicker. Your test will show that. The main flaw is that in a parking lot exercise, you have no distractions at all...100% of your thinking is on braking right.
However, when you are riding on the street and a car pulls in front of you and you have to emergency brake, both brakes aren't necessarily the best option. MOST riders panic (even the slightest bit), and the rear brake on the 250r is extremely easy to lock. Your better off concentrating fully on the front brake and watching the car in front of you then accidentally locking the rear because half your concentration then goes to thinking about the rear and how to keep the bike up.
On other bikes where the rear doesn't lock up as easily, it's probably best to use, but on the 250, the rear locks way too easy, so for most riders, using just the front and not having to worry about locking the rear will result in the shortest stop (in a panic situation).

[JeffM]

However, when you are riding on the street and a car pulls in front of you and you have to emergency brake, both brakes aren't necessarily the best option.

However, in emergency situations, you will replicate what you practice. I practice quick stops using both brakes. Thus, in a "real" situation I will use both brakes and stop faster than if I had only practiced with the front. The extra distance you gain may keep you from hitting the side of a car or at least you'll hit it slower.

Now, if you practice with the front only and that is in your bag of tricks there is nothing wrong with that. The key is practicing. If you ride at 40 mph all the time work up to practicing quick stops at that same speed.

I'm no expert but this makes sense to me.

Jeff

[bdavison]

Your better off concentrating fully on the front brake and watching the car in front of you then accidentally locking the rear because half your concentration then goes to thinking about the rear and how to keep the bike up.

Nope, your better off learning proper braking technique than relying on a false sense of security. Braking, as with any riding skill, is a learned skill, not a natural one. This means you must practice the correct braking skills enough to make them an instinctive reaction before you can be sure that you will do the right things in an emergency.

It's more compex than you lay it out, and in fact most people with any significant high speed experience disagree with you.

You and anyone else can disagree with it all you want. Its a fact. A fact that's been proven over and over again by those that have actually tried it, and following the advice of "most people with any significant high speed experience" (whoever these people are) doesnt change that. Going fast a few times doesnt make them an expert...if it did we would all be learning how to ride from the local squid in t-shirt and sandals that knows "if I twist real hard on this handle thingy, I go fast"

[backinthesaddleagain]

I think and could easily be wrong that Keith Code does that at one of his schools. I think he has a set up to calculate braking distances with front brake vs both brakes. Kind of like the bike he has with two sets of handlebars - one that doesn't connect to the forks to prove you can't turn by only leaning or shifting body position or pushing down on the bars rather than forward.

[pedaltothemetal]

If you ride upright it's easy to brake with both wheels but I ride mostly in
a tuck and the right foot is very uncomfortable on the brake pedal so
mostly keep my foot up high on the right peg. So unless I'm sittling up my
method is front brake, then apply the rear when the bike is coming to a stop
which brings the rear down. Then let go of the front brake, down shift to first
while making the complete stop with only the rear brake.
In a super panic situation, I have to idea what I will do since it will be
all instinct not to hit anything in front of me!

Here is a video that is amusing from the premiere vlogger on youtube.
Read all the comments from many riders regarding front rear braking!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uHcl...ayer_embedded#
Front Brake VS Rear - Double M13 part 3

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by g21-30

One of the subjects Gary talks about is "learning the limits of your brakes, especially the front one!" His exercise for this is a clean, dry, smooth and VACANT parking lot. While going in a straight line and NO MORE than 10 MPH, squeeze the front brake as hard as you can. Keep doing this until the front tire either slides or you do a STOPPIE, preferably a STOPPIE!

This afternoon, I proceeded to just such a parking lot, which happens to be a very large and unrented building complex, where I practice MSF drills and U-turns normally. It took about 10 tries, before experiencing my first STOPPIE. Boy that is a wierd feeling with the backend coming off the ground, even if only about 4-6 inches. I kept practicing until I completed a half dozen of these and NEVER had the front tire skid!

Another thing Gary suggests is to get into the habit of ALWAYS covering both the clutch and brake levers with the index finger of each respective hand. It seems this will cut down on your reaction time in an emergency situation. Don't keep pressure on the levers, just let the finger rest across the lever. Also, get in the habit of braking with ONE finger in most situations!

Comments?

I don't agree with most of this (gasp!)

First of all...I don't mean any disrespect to the OP or to Gary or anything, but I've heard varying opinions of this kind of stuff from all kinds of people....ranging from people with years of street riding, people who have a great deal of amateur racing at local tracks here in Ontario, to even other authors of similar books. 'Sport Riding Techniques' actually counters the 10mph stoppie practice directly by stating in the book that one should practice proper emergency braking (ie: no stoppie) at the speeds that one would normally ride around at. There's obviously a disclaimer warning against being an idiot in the book...but the theory is that knowing the distance it takes for you to stop SAFELY from your typical riding speed is crucial. If you haven't practiced emergency braking from 100mph...maybe you shouldn't be doing that kind of speed on public roads. I'm not saying that everyoen should go out and start practicing emergency braking techniques at 100mph or anything...but at the same time, I don't see how knowing how to do a stoppie at 10mph is going to translate into anything useful other than being really really good at doing a stoppie at 10mph.

Also, regarding his advice to always cover the clutch and brake...again...unless you're aware of the specific context you're in, this isn't always applicable or adviseable.

I cover my brake when I approach an intersection, or when I'm passing stopped cars stuck behind a left turning car in the left lane of a two lane road (me being in the right lane). Crawling around in traffic...this isn't really required. I use the clutch to modulate my speed, and use the brake to flash the brake light so the idiot behind me pays attention.

The main reason I don't want my fingers on the brake or clutch at all times is because I still have a lot of unwanted reactions/movements in my hands whenever I go over bumps or when I sneeze/cough and etc. The opportunity to screw up is too great. The half second it takes me to roll off the throttle and grab my brake lever with a finger or three is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Odds are, if someone jumps out in front of you and that half second is what could've saved your life, then you probably didn't anticipate the danger well enough, or you were going too damned fast.

Final note: keep in mind that a lot of these guys are former pro racers. How they react in an "oh sh*t" moment will be different from how you react. Hell, how they ride in general will be different from how you ride. Their advice is priceless, but should also be taken with a grain of salt. You are not them...for the love of God don't try and ride like them.

Oh and if you're above 200lbs on the Ninja 250...you're gonna need more than 1 finger to brake successfully

That's just my 2 cents...as an uppity noob postwhoring at work haha.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by bdavison

You and anyone else can disagree with it all you want. Its a fact. A fact that's been proven over and over again by those that have actually tried it, and following the advice of "most people with any significant high speed experience" (whoever these people are) doesnt change that. Going fast a few times doesnt make them an expert...if it did we would all be learning how to ride from the local squid in t-shirt and sandals that knows "if I twist real hard on this handle thingy, I go fast"

Putting aside the definition of fact for a moment, let's assume that it is. Proper application of both brakes with enough practice for a particular incident, will lower stopping distances by a small amount compared to only apply the front brake. The difference in stopping distances is quite minor. In all of the tests (and several are always linked in threads like this, we've talked about this a number of times on this board), adding the rear brake can cut stopping distances in the 3% - 5% range. Assuming perfect application of the front brake, perfect application of the rear brake, and stopping the bike in the least available distance. Stated like that, I'd agree, and I'd venture we could get most others to agree as well.

The crux of these decisions comes down to, is that fact actionable. Because the reason we run into things that we shouldn't, and don't stop as soon as we could have, is not because we're forgetting to use the rear brake and need that extra 3 - 5%. It's because we don't have enough experience bringing the front tire to the point of lockup, and we don't have enough experience using the rear in such a situation to both add to the stopping force without removing directional stability. A little too much rear brake when 90+% of the weight is over the front under max braking, and the bike no longer has directional control with a locked rear. Which most often results in the bike going in a straight line right into whatever we're trying to avoid. Or the other result, with the rider realizing the rear is locked up, and unintentionally letting off of both brakes to stabilize the bike, and adding huge distances to the stopping event.

Learning to brake at maximum force while maintaining control is a good goal, no? Finding out that you can maintain use of the rear while braking at maximum force, is a good result, and to your point, shouldn't be discouraged. But if adding the rear brake is noticeably shortening someone's stopping distances on a sportbike like ours, it's clear as day that they aren't braking as hard as they can with the front brake in the first place, adding needless distance between when they can stop and when they end up stopping. And IMO, and only IMO, new riders just don't have that feel yet for what's the right amount of pressure that can be applied to the rear in an emergency situation to allow that control to help them successfully avoid whatever they are trying to not hit. YMMV.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

Oh and if you're above 200lbs on the Ninja 250...you're gonna need more than 1 finger to brake successfully

Gary's not Dani Pedrosa-sized, but he's certainly not NFL-lineman sized either.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Alex

Gary's not Dani Pedrosa-sized, but he's certainly not NFL-lineman sized either.

I discovered this for myself when I tried to brake hard with one finger on the 250. I managed to stop but my finger hurt like hell.

Generally speaking I think that 1 finger thing is more for the supersports....but if you're light enough, it could easily apply to the little ninja noooo problem!

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

I discovered this for myself when I tried to brake hard with one finger on the 250. I managed to stop but my finger hurt like hell.

As I stated previously "...with the Galfer brake lines and ZX-10R front master cylinder, one finger is enough to stop my bike." I'm over 200 lbs and this MC really makes it easier to stop. I did use all fingers to finally get those STOPPIEs!

[pedaltothemetal]

You guys with weak gripping strength need this!

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/ope...nsofcrush.html

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by g21-30

As I stated previously "...with the Galfer brake lines and ZX-10R front master cylinder, one finger is enough to stop my bike." I'm over 200 lbs and this MC really makes it easier to stop. I did use all fingers to finally get those STOPPIEs!

Oh i missed that bit. Sorry about that...I was reading that at work while pretending to do work.

Originally Posted by pedaltothemetal

You guys with weak gripping strength need this!

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/ope...nsofcrush.html

This one's even better hehe. You can work your digits individually.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Another thing Gary suggests is to get into the habit of ALWAYS covering both the clutch and brake levers with the index finger of each respective hand. It seems this will cut down on your reaction time in an emergency situation. Don't keep pressure on the levers, just let the finger rest across the lever. Also, get in the habit of braking with ONE finger in most situations!

I have been doing this religiously. Not only does it cut down on reaction time, but my shifting is MUCH smoother. It actually sounds like the clutch is not being used (it is). By keeping the index finger across the brake lever, while rolling on/off the throttle, it helps to keep the rpms from dropping/increasing from too much throttle movement.

It's become so much of a habit, that I was still doing it even while practicing low speed manuvers, such as u-turns with slight rear brake application. Gary really has great suggestions in both of his books.

FYI...for the price of one, I bought both of them used. They are in excellent condition.

[Greg_E]

Those grip exercisers can do real damage to your hands and arms. Notice that they only train in one direction, you need the counter force of opening your hand to keep everything in balance or you're going to have problems keeping all the joints in alignment. It also can induce carpal tunnel injuries.

As far as breaking technique, using both will absolutely reduce the stopping distance by some amount, unless you are stopping so aggressively that the rear wheel leaves the ground and then it's all up to the front. With most supersports getting into a stoppie is pretty simple and a single finger exercise. On a cruiser, both brakes will without question result in much shorter distances which is probably why they try to drill this into your head.

I used to cover my brake with my middle finger, then decided I better use two or the index finger so that no one will get the wrong idea. Last thing you want is some gang banger thinking you are flipping him off.

[Cedilla]

I usually use 2 fingers on the brake, and 3 on the clutch. I just feels comfortable like that. Although I can easily bring my bike to a halt with one finger, it starts to get tiring after a while.