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Old July 28th, 2015, 04:58 AM   #1
jtmx29
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Cornering Advice

Hey guys,

I recently got a Ninja 250 and my motorcycle permit. I have roughly 200 miles under my belt thus far.

My confidence has increased but I am making sure I ride within my ability. After each ride I try to reflect on how I was doing and what I could improve upon.

I have no problems using the clutch, taking corners at speed (counter steering), and maintaining proper riding position.

My question today stems from the more 90 degree turns coming off from a single/double lane road. I will be going along at say 40-45 MPH and when I get to the turn I slow down (not sure of the speed) but I always struggle with if I should lean hard and counter steer or if I should physically move the handle bars.

Does anyone have any advice on this. I did watch some of 'twist of the wrist,' but I would honestly like to see real world examples outside of the track.

Has anyone struggled with sharper turns coming off of a road with some speed?

ALSO, as a side note I am going to an MSF course in the middle of August. I have also been practicing low speed maneuvers in parking lots (figure 8s and such).

Thanks.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 05:12 AM   #2
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Welcome! Good for you for thinking about your riding and most especially for getting training.

At the speeds you're talking about, it's countersteering. Direct steering (i.e. consciously turn the bars left to go left) really happens only at walking pace. Even then, you're actually countersteering a teeny tiny bit to get the bike leaned... you just can't feel it.

You'll use direct steering on the dreaded MSF "box" drill. Watch this... it shows the kind of speed where direct steering makes sense:

Link to original page on YouTube.

There are two super-important things to always keep in mind, but most especially on those low-speed turns.

1) Look where you're going, not at the ground right in front of the bike. You go where you look. Look down, go down. It works for steering horses, and it works with humans. Lift your vision and look at the corner exit.

2) Roll on the throttle through the turn, always. That does not mean pin it. It means that (pretend I'm Keith Code for a moment) once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on smoothly and continuously throughout the remainder of the turn. You may wind up at only 1/4 throttle by the end, but you started from closed throttle.

A really common newbie mistake is to lay the bike down on one of those low-speed corners, and the reason is usually because they didn't twist the throttle. They slowed down, leaned over for the corner and the bike just fell. In 28 years of riding I've crashed only once, and that was why. I was going maybe 10-15 mph at the time. It was when I had about as much riding experience as you do now.

Watch the rest of Twist of the Wrist. A lot of it is more advanced stuff for the track, but it absolutely applies to the street. Read the book, too. I also highly recommend David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling, and Ken Condon's Riding in the Zone is pretty good as well... it also comes with a DVD full of parking lot drills.

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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:16 AM   #3
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Adoug nailed it.

Look as far through the corner as you can, the farther the better. Let your peripheral vision "see" the stuff that is near, but turn your head and look, first at the apex, then quickly to the exit of the corner, and then quickly down the road to the next corner. What applies to turn 5 of Laguna Seca, works equally well on the off ramp of your local expressway. Approach the corner, brake aggressively front and rear, at the turn in point, look to the apex, back off front brake and most of the rear, turn (lean the bike) using counter steer, add throttle, look to the exit of the corner, progressively add more throttle, look way down the road, add more throttle as you stand the bike back up. I believe the Motorcycle Safety Foundation just says, Brake, look, lean, roll.

If you haven't taken the MSF course, it's worth the time... most are filled this time of year, but if you find where it's given in your are... walk in's the day of happen very frequently.

and 200 miles is ... is brand new, newer then brand new... Nip bad habits in the bud, but you are still very very new to this... don't beat yourself up if you don't get it tomorrow, or the next day. I've been riding 25 years and 180,ooo miles and I still make mistakes. The more you ride, the more "automatic" it will become, the more you can work on specific parts of your ride.

and above all, have fun, 2 wheels rock, try not to turn it into work, or a test. Enjoy.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:20 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Welcome! Good for you for thinking about your riding and most especially for getting training.

At the speeds you're talking about, it's countersteering. Direct steering (i.e. consciously turn the bars left to go left) really happens only at walking pace. Even then, you're actually countersteering a teeny tiny bit to get the bike leaned... you just can't feel it.

You'll use direct steering on the dreaded MSF "box" drill. Watch this... it shows the kind of speed where direct steering makes sense:

Link to original page on YouTube.

There are two super-important things to always keep in mind, but most especially on those low-speed turns.

1) Look where you're going, not at the ground right in front of the bike. You go where you look. Look down, go down. It works for steering horses, and it works with humans. Lift your vision and look at the corner exit.

2) Roll on the throttle through the turn, always. That does not mean pin it. It means that (pretend I'm Keith Code for a moment) once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on smoothly and continuously throughout the remainder of the turn. You may wind up at only 1/4 throttle by the end, but you started from closed throttle.

A really common newbie mistake is to lay the bike down on one of those low-speed corners, and the reason is usually because they didn't twist the throttle. They slowed down, leaned over for the corner and the bike just fell. In 28 years of riding I've crashed only once, and that was why. I was going maybe 10-15 mph at the time. It was when I had about as much riding experience as you do now.

Watch the rest of Twist of the Wrist. A lot of it is more advanced stuff for the track, but it absolutely applies to the street. Read the book, too. I also highly recommend David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling, and Ken Condon's Riding in the Zone is pretty good as well... it also comes with a DVD full of parking lot drills.


Thank you so much for the detailed response. I will certainly take a look at the books and videos you recommended.

So basically when I come to a turn I will slow down and have my braking/clutch work be before the turn. I will look through the turn and turn only my head. As I take the turn I countersteer into it (maybe going 15-20 MPH) and then roll the throttle through to maintain balance and to get perpendicular as I exit the turn.

My question is how worried should I be about my lean. Should I be careful leaning starting out (as I get used to these types of turns) or should I lean as much as needed to safely complete the turn.

My biggest thing I have been paying attention to is ensuring that I don't get on and off the throttle in the turn. I make sure everything is smooth.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:21 AM   #5
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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:53 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by jtmx29 View Post
Thank you so much for the detailed response. I will certainly take a look at the books and videos you recommended.

So basically when I come to a turn I will slow down and have my braking/clutch work be before the turn. I will look through the turn and turn only my head. As I take the turn I countersteer into it (maybe going 15-20 MPH) and then roll the throttle through to maintain balance and to get perpendicular as I exit the turn.

My question is how worried should I be about my lean. Should I be careful leaning starting out (as I get used to these types of turns) or should I lean as much as needed to safely complete the turn.

My biggest thing I have been paying attention to is ensuring that I don't get on and off the throttle in the turn. I make sure everything is smooth.
In general the bike can lean WAY more than you think it can, and you usually feel like you are leaning WAY more than you really are.

Sometimes on a long sweeper on the expressway it feels to me like I'm about to drag a knee but I'm actually at maybe 30 degrees of lean.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:03 AM   #7
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In general the bike can lean WAY more than you think it can, and you usually feel like you are leaning WAY more than you really are.

Sometimes on a long sweeper on the expressway it feels to me like I'm about to drag a knee but I'm actually at maybe 30 degrees of lean.
Thanks for the information. I was actually practicing yesterday in a lot doing corners and it felt a little foreign but I too realized the lean wasn't as much as my body thought it was.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:10 AM   #8
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That being said, definitely stay very conservative until you take the class.

There are a number of reasons that a corner can feel difficult - I have a few on my daily commute. One of them is a simple 4-way intersection that you wouldn't think twice about in a car, but the direction I go turning right there is a significant grade down over a pavement seam and a tar snake. The turn radius, grades, road crowning, debris, etc. can all complicate things.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:45 AM   #9
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Don't worry too much about lean. It's a byproduct of the speed at which you take the corner and the radius of the corner, not a separate thing.

GOOD that you're focusing on throttle control. It's HUGELY important. Smooth... don't chop the throttle.

From the way you write, you've got your head screwed on right and are definitely thinking things the way you should.

I won't overload you with too much... just keep doing what you're doing.

Final thought... relax. Rather than focus on "turning only your head" just think about where you're looking. Loose on the bars, calm, never stiff. Flow with the bike.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 08:54 AM   #10
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Thanks for the insight. I'll try to not overthink things and will certainly take my time learning the basics.

I was actually doing some figure eights in a church parking lot when I thought to myself... "I don't want to push myself too much, I'd rather do that during the MSF class and drop their bike instead of mine."

I will continue on though.
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Old July 30th, 2015, 02:13 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by jtmx29 View Post
Thank you so much for the detailed response. I will certainly take a look at the books and videos you recommended.

So basically when I come to a turn I will slow down and have my braking/clutch work be before the turn. I will look through the turn and turn only my head. As I take the turn I countersteer into it (maybe going 15-20 MPH) and then roll the throttle through to maintain balance and to get perpendicular as I exit the turn.

My question is how worried should I be about my lean. Should I be careful leaning starting out (as I get used to these types of turns) or should I lean as much as needed to safely complete the turn.

My biggest thing I have been paying attention to is ensuring that I don't get on and off the throttle in the turn. I make sure everything is smooth.
Sounds like you are doing your homework and working on all the right things. Throttle control is VERY important and smooth is fast

As for how much to lean....one way to think about that is to "go with the bike" meaning that once you initiate the steering you should let your body follow and "go with," or "lean with" the bike. You want to be nice and relaxed, I sometimes tell students to be like a "wet floppy noodle" and just go where your bike goes

People get very caught up in trying to lean, or trying to hang off, or forcing things when they are riding instead of just going with it.

Keep learning and happy riding!!

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Old July 30th, 2015, 04:29 PM   #12
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Old July 30th, 2015, 07:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtmx29 View Post
.......... So basically when I come to a turn I will slow down and have my braking/clutch work be before the turn. I will look through the turn and turn only my head. As I take the turn I countersteer into it (maybe going 15-20 MPH) and then roll the throttle through to maintain balance and to get perpendicular as I exit the turn.

My question is how worried should I be about my lean. Should I be careful leaning starting out (as I get used to these types of turns) or should I lean as much as needed to safely complete the turn..........
Taylor,

Could you explain the highlighted above a little more?

Repeat this one thousand times:
Any turn should be entered slowly and exited fast.

The forces that try to slide your tires sideways while turning are higher and higher as your speed increases.
The lean angle that your bike takes is a natural reaction to those forces.

Leaning is not natural to us humans and because of that, we tend to panic when we feel that are leaning too much.
When we panic, we crash.

Keeping a moderate entry speed and a small but constant acceleration though the turn (as mush as traffic and road conditions allow) is the best practice to learn without crashing.

Take a look at these threads:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100922

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100964

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123638

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Old July 31st, 2015, 05:41 AM   #14
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Taylor,

Could you explain the highlighted above a little more?

Repeat this one thousand times:
Any turn should be entered slowly and exited fast.

The forces that try to slide your tires sideways while turning are higher and higher as your speed increases.
The lean angle that your bike takes is a natural reaction to those forces.

Leaning is not natural to us humans and because of that, we tend to panic when we feel that are leaning too much.
When we panic, we crash.

Keeping a moderate entry speed and a small but constant acceleration though the turn (as mush as traffic and road conditions allow) is the best practice to learn without crashing.

Take a look at these threads:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100922

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100964

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123638


I've probably used the term 'clutch work' incorrectly... What I meant was that I make sure I'm in a gear that is proper for that turn and will give me power/torque to accelerate (pretty much any gear on the Ninja).

When I say perpendicular I mean that as I exit the turn I keep a steady and slightly increasing throttle to get the bike out of the lean. It was my understanding that the throttle will rise the bike (hence getting perpendicular).

I seem to read a lot of conflicting advice on cornering. A lot of people seem to recommend going into the corner and keeping steady throttle or no throttle until the apex and then others seem to recommend throttle throughout the entire turn.

Thanks for all the help and I will read those links tonight when I get home.

Appreciate all the help!

Thanks,

Taylor
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Old July 31st, 2015, 10:15 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by jtmx29 View Post
I seem to read a lot of conflicting advice on cornering. A lot of people seem to recommend going into the corner and keeping steady throttle or no throttle until the apex and then others seem to recommend throttle throughout the entire turn.
The classic advice is:
brake
off the brakes/off the throttle completely
set your lean angle
roll on throttle smoothly when you're happy with the direction (trajectory) and speed
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Old July 31st, 2015, 10:55 AM   #16
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So, al... are you saying you close the throttle completely every time you go around a corner? Every time?

Not so, in my long experience. Sometimes you might have to. Often you don't.

To the OP: You've watched some of TOTW2 and maybe read the book too.

The rule is:

Once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on continuously and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.


Say that ten thousand times. Say it every time you go around a corner. Say it. SAY IT!

That means a very slight, continuous acceleration (vs. a static, steady-state throttle). It also means you do not open the throttle, then close it, then open again.

It's the same thing as the last item in the MSF's slow-look-lean-roll mantra.

Where you crack the throttle open will vary, as Al points out. It might be at the apex. It might be a bit before. If you're scrubbing speed, it might even be after. But once you open it, you shouldn't close it again (emergencies notwithstanding, of course).

Why? Because it upsets the bike and can cause you to foul up your line. When you're accelerating, weight transfers to the rear. When you cut the throttle, it transfers to the front... exactly as if you'd applied the brakes.

"Cracking the throttle open" also does not necessarily mean "from a fully closed throttle." What about those bends where you get out of the gas most (but not all) of the way, then accelerate through? The "crack" is the deliberate decision to begin accelerating.

You may have heard of "maintenance throttle," which is carrying just a little bit of open throttle through the turn. Why? Because when you lean a tire over, the wheel now has a smaller radius -- i.e., it's just like you're riding a bike with 14" wheels instead of 17"wheels.

Why does that matter? Because given the same wheel speed, a smaller wheel won't travel as far as a larger one. In other words, the bike will slow down simply because you've leaned it over.

Maintenance throttle counteracts this... it maintains your speed through the corner, prior to you rolling on (i.e. cracking open) the throttle.

Do you do it all the time? No. Depends on the circumstances. Again, if you're trying to scrub speed, maybe you won't. If you're trying to keep your momentum up and get a good drive out of the corner, you might.

The goal is smoothness. Always.
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Last futzed with by adouglas; July 31st, 2015 at 11:55 AM.
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Old July 31st, 2015, 11:51 AM   #17
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Addendum.

One day you may find yourself going through a corner and feel as if the bike suddenly wants to fall over. Your heart will leap into your throat. You'll probably be going pretty slowly at the time.

This in fact happened to me as recently as this year, at the track.

It just... happens, seemingly with no warning. But why?

It's because you increased your lean without giving it enough throttle -- or any, for that matter. The effective radius of the tire decreased, the bike suddenly slowed as a result and hey presto, you're now going too slowly for the amount of lean you've got. Physics wins, again.

In 28 years of riding I've only crashed once, and it was when I was a noob. It's been so long I don't recall if that's what I felt, but I do know I was going slow and I do know I didn't give it throttle. Therefore that must be what happened.

So think this through and map it against what you've heard. Say you're going through a corner where you have to tighten your line and you slavishly keep the throttle totally closed until the apex no matter what. What happens? You lean over with the throttle closed, then you lean a little more, with the bike slowing all the time, then....

Get the picture?
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Old July 31st, 2015, 01:00 PM   #18
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Addendum.

One day you may find yourself going through a corner and feel as if the bike suddenly wants to fall over. Your heart will leap into your throat. You'll probably be going pretty slowly at the time.

This in fact happened to me as recently as this year, at the track.

It just... happens, seemingly with no warning. But why?

It's because you increased your lean without giving it enough throttle -- or any, for that matter. The effective radius of the tire decreased, the bike suddenly slowed as a result and hey presto, you're now going too slowly for the amount of lean you've got. Physics wins, again.

In 28 years of riding I've only crashed once, and it was when I was a noob. It's been so long I don't recall if that's what I felt, but I do know I was going slow and I do know I didn't give it throttle. Therefore that must be what happened.

So think this through and map it against what you've heard. Say you're going through a corner where you have to tighten your line and you slavishly keep the throttle totally closed until the apex no matter what. What happens? You lean over with the throttle closed, then you lean a little more, with the bike slowing all the time, then....

Get the picture?

Got it. Picturing the physics definitely helps out. Thanks for your detailed responses!
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Old August 1st, 2015, 11:39 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jtmx29 View Post
I've probably used the term 'clutch work' incorrectly... What I meant was that I make sure I'm in a gear that is proper for that turn and will give me power/torque to accelerate (pretty much any gear on the Ninja).

When I say perpendicular I mean that as I exit the turn I keep a steady and slightly increasing throttle to get the bike out of the lean. It was my understanding that the throttle will rise the bike (hence getting perpendicular).

I seem to read a lot of conflicting advice on cornering. A lot of people seem to recommend going into the corner and keeping steady throttle or no throttle until the apex and then others seem to recommend throttle throughout the entire turn.

Thanks for all the help and I will read those links tonight when I get home.

Appreciate all the help!

Thanks,

Taylor
Thanks for the extra explanation.
Sometimes you need a lower gear for more torque, sometimes you don't; learning to evaluate turns is key.
Increasing speed does not stand the bike up, your steering does.

For any curve or 90 degree turn, start accelerating as soon as possible.
How much? 0.1 to 0.2 G is ideal for proper weight distribution and suspension work.
That means, the speed should increase 2 to 4 mph per each second.

As much as for vertical riding, lean angle is about keeping the natural balance, so you and bike do not fall onto either side.
The only difference is that forces pull your bike and you vertically down while describing a linear trajectory, while they pull both of you in a diagonal direction while cornering.
Hence, you don't choose the angle of lean, you can only choose the radius of the turn and the speed of the bike; then, you seek that state of balance adapting (via counter-steering/steering) to the natural lean angle (of the diagonal forces) corresponding to that particular combination of radius and speed.

I assume that you will be a street rider for a while before getting into track riding.
If the above is accurate, my best advice regarding your future approach to motorcycling is to work on the purity of your riding techniques at slow rates of speed.
That means, to learn and practice the best proved techniques in order to acquire full control over the machine, while keeping moderate speeds and moderate traffic around you.

In two days, the MSF basic course cannot teach you those techniques; there is not enough time.
The process of becoming proficient goes like this:
1) You learn how to barely control the machine.
2) You fight your natural instincts (survival reactions).
3) You become familiar with 1 and 2 and start venturing into traffic. A lot of your attention is still used for control; hence, you are very vulnerable to traffic.
4) You start enjoying it and become overconfident and dangerous to yourself, as you have learned how to get into dangerous situations but not how to get out of those, or how to avoid them, which is even safer.
5) One or two close calls reveal to you that you were not as good as you believed you were and, being the smart person that you are, you start working on additional techniques and better traffic strategies.
That is the point at which it becomes a great advantage to have slowly and carefully learned proper techniques during phase #1 (because you don't need to un-learn bad habits, which is extremely hard to accomplish).

For the theoretical portion of your training during phases #1 and #2, just forget about the conflicting advice on cornering coming from a lot of misinformed people; few people know how to ride really well.

Instead, learn street techniques and traffic strategies from our Riding Skills section and from good books like "Total control" and "Proficient motorcycling".
That base knowledge is fundamental, do not skip it.
Then, it is all up to your commitment to practice as much and as frequently as you can.

Do not mix speed into that process, remain humble and thirsty regarding knowledge and skills.
Speed rushes you and put the bike ahead of your eyes and mind.
You should always lead your bike, a couple of steps and about 12 seconds ahead.

Although good to know, for street riding within legal speeds nobody needs advanced techniques for cornering; nevertheless, for surviving many years of street riding, everyone needs to be proficient about riding strategies and evasive maneuvers (swerving and braking).

Street riding is serious business and every rider should be fully prepared for it.
Please, read this:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121405

You are welcome
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Motofool
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Old August 3rd, 2015, 12:58 PM   #20
jtmx29
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Name: Taylor
Location: Connecticut
Join Date: Jul 2015

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250R

Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
Thanks for the extra explanation.
Sometimes you need a lower gear for more torque, sometimes you don't; learning to evaluate turns is key.
Increasing speed does not stand the bike up, your steering does.

For any curve or 90 degree turn, start accelerating as soon as possible.
How much? 0.1 to 0.2 G is ideal for proper weight distribution and suspension work.
That means, the speed should increase 2 to 4 mph per each second.

As much as for vertical riding, lean angle is about keeping the natural balance, so you and bike do not fall onto either side.
The only difference is that forces pull your bike and you vertically down while describing a linear trajectory, while they pull both of you in a diagonal direction while cornering.
Hence, you don't choose the angle of lean, you can only choose the radius of the turn and the speed of the bike; then, you seek that state of balance adapting (via counter-steering/steering) to the natural lean angle (of the diagonal forces) corresponding to that particular combination of radius and speed.

I assume that you will be a street rider for a while before getting into track riding.
If the above is accurate, my best advice regarding your future approach to motorcycling is to work on the purity of your riding techniques at slow rates of speed.
That means, to learn and practice the best proved techniques in order to acquire full control over the machine, while keeping moderate speeds and moderate traffic around you.

In two days, the MSF basic course cannot teach you those techniques; there is not enough time.
The process of becoming proficient goes like this:
1) You learn how to barely control the machine.
2) You fight your natural instincts (survival reactions).
3) You become familiar with 1 and 2 and start venturing into traffic. A lot of your attention is still used for control; hence, you are very vulnerable to traffic.
4) You start enjoying it and become overconfident and dangerous to yourself, as you have learned how to get into dangerous situations but not how to get out of those, or how to avoid them, which is even safer.
5) One or two close calls reveal to you that you were not as good as you believed you were and, being the smart person that you are, you start working on additional techniques and better traffic strategies.
That is the point at which it becomes a great advantage to have slowly and carefully learned proper techniques during phase #1 (because you don't need to un-learn bad habits, which is extremely hard to accomplish).

For the theoretical portion of your training during phases #1 and #2, just forget about the conflicting advice on cornering coming from a lot of misinformed people; few people know how to ride really well.

Instead, learn street techniques and traffic strategies from our Riding Skills section and from good books like "Total control" and "Proficient motorcycling".
That base knowledge is fundamental, do not skip it.
Then, it is all up to your commitment to practice as much and as frequently as you can.

Do not mix speed into that process, remain humble and thirsty regarding knowledge and skills.
Speed rushes you and put the bike ahead of your eyes and mind.
You should always lead your bike, a couple of steps and about 12 seconds ahead.

Although good to know, for street riding within legal speeds nobody needs advanced techniques for cornering; nevertheless, for surviving many years of street riding, everyone needs to be proficient about riding strategies and evasive maneuvers (swerving and braking).

Street riding is serious business and every rider should be fully prepared for it.
Please, read this:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121405

You are welcome

Thank you for the response. I have read through the attached link and appreciated how relevant it was. I have gone ahead and purchased Proficient Motorcycling off of Amazon to supplement my on-cycle experience.
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Old August 3rd, 2015, 01:17 PM   #21
Proteus
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@Motofool you're the best! I'm going to print that post and put it on my fridge.
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