All Jets Feel the Same

DevinWolfe · April 28th, 2012, 04:43 PM

So I have yanked my airbox and switched to K&N R-0990, removed Kleen Air system and plugged the "chimney," as well as Swapped in 3 different sets of jets. I am also running a Yoshi slip-on w/ silencer.

I have 108, 110, and 112.

A/F mix screws set to 2 turns out as recommended on a different board (couldn't find a recommendation for A/F screws while determining main jet size here) and I have swapped in all 3 different sets of jets. They all felt pretty much the same 7-8K to redline @ WOT. The only realy noticeable difference to me was that the 112 seems to bog more at the lower end pulling away from a stop. I wouldn't think main jet would have that effect in the low end.

They ALL feel way better than stock, but that may be a placebo effect from that roaring intake /shrug.

Ideas?

TL;DR

-K&N R-0990
-Kleen Air removed
-Yoshi Slip-on w/ silencer
-A/F screws set 2 turns out
-No shims
-108, 110, and 112 jets feel the same

rdano1197 · April 28th, 2012, 05:24 PM

I am about to do the same mods, with a full exhaust. I have not done it yet, but from my understanding the main jet is for higher rpms, and the needle setting is for lower rpms. I could be mistaken, wrong, or only partly right. Here is a pic that might help explain what I am saying. Not sure I can provide much else to help. Did you change out the exhaust? Sync the carbs?

RD

DevinWolfe · April 28th, 2012, 05:29 PM

Those were my thoughts as well, the pic didn't come through but I assume it is the graph of which jets work when/where. THe only thing I can think of is that even the 108 is pig rich for my setup and the rest were even worse.

I forgot to add that I have a Yoshi slip-on, added to orignal post.

Have not synced the carbs, it has always been listed as the last thing to do after tuning so I was waiting to get my jets, shims, and A/F correct first.

Jiggles · April 28th, 2012, 05:41 PM

What brand jets?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10208

choneofakind · April 28th, 2012, 05:44 PM

if the 108 and 110 feel the same at WOT, and the 112 bogs a little bit, stick with the 110

You're high enough in the mountains that you likely are closer to right with a 108, but it's always good for a street bike to be a little rich to compensate for cold days.

If you're worried about making sure the bike is running acceptable AFR's, take it to a shop to get a baseline dyno run. As long as there's no bogging or surging, there shouldn't be an issue.

DevinWolfe · April 28th, 2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

What brand jets?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10208

Keihin Genuine.

I went through that thread and found that a decent starting point would be the 108.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10640

That thread also shows 108 as the lower end without airbox, so I went with that as I only have a slip-on.

DevinWolfe · April 28th, 2012, 05:49 PM

Well I could always "borrow" my wideband from my car (nitrous) to check out my AFR that way, but then I would have to find a bung and a shop to weld it onto the tiny stock pipes. Knoxville is actually only around 1100 ft where I ride (work/home) and I think Deal's Gap is only a few hundred higher than that, but I'm really not sure.

Guess I *could* pull the plugs...

choneofakind · April 28th, 2012, 05:50 PM

could you just ghetto rig the bung into the exhaust pipe temporarily?

DevinWolfe · April 28th, 2012, 05:52 PM

That far back I would think even on a bike my readings would lean as hell compared to actual. First time I have messed with fuel stuff on a bike so I may be mistaken.

DaBlue1 · April 28th, 2012, 06:38 PM

Have you ever considered using a correction factor based on altitude and temperature? See Motorcycle Carburetor Theory 101-Altitude, Humidity, and Air Temperature

I'd stick with the 108 main based on your set up, even for riding around the Dragon. While up at the Dragon you can go to Wheeler's Performance on 129 and get on the Dyno.

DevinWolfe · April 28th, 2012, 07:49 PM

Well I just took her out with the 112 jets to video WOT runs to time compared to the others. Already dark and I don't want to risk getting a ticket so I will have to do 110 and 108 tomorrow.

I'm doing 3rd gear 45mph (~8K I think, can't remmber now but it'll be in the vid) -redline pulls.

If 108 is better than the other 2 I may grab some 106s later.

Gotta get my bases covered before I got nitrous and turbo (joke).

TnNinjaGirl · April 29th, 2012, 05:17 PM

@DevinWolfe

Same mods, 2 Bros instead of Yoshi. I'm running a 110.

Check your plugs are the runs and see how they look. Maybe you can get some clues there? If they feel the same I would go with the biggest one that won't bog you down so you are on the rich side and safe. Pretty sure you know all of this stuff though.

Oh, if you want to ride my bike for comparison let me know.

DevinWolfe · April 29th, 2012, 06:00 PM

Well, after switching back to 110, I found that it is a little stronger than the 112, camera didn't record so I can't compare video yet. Now it is down to the 108 and the 110.

I have to ride a mile to get back to my garage from Clinton Hwy, so I would have to check the plugs on the side of the road to be really accurate for a WOT run. That really doesn't appeal to me, but I will do it I can't feel any difference between 108 and 110

I'm thinking my butt-dyno just needs to be calibrated...

@TnNinjaGirl I may take you up on that, I just hate the thought of WOT on someone elses bike. Never liked driving other's cars but a bike is a lot more personal.

TnNinjaGirl · April 29th, 2012, 06:03 PM

Doesn't bother me. I bought the thing to ride it. Besides, if you blow it up it gives me an excuse to put a 500 or 650 motor in it. Let me know when you have some free time. I'll check my schedule. There is a really good road in the Karns Industrial Park off of Oak Ridge Hwy that is really good for WOT testing and what not.

choneofakind · April 29th, 2012, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

Doesn't bother me. I bought the thing to ride it.

go for a ninja 400 engine swap!!! EFI, and the perfect size engine without worries of having too much for the frame.

TnNinjaGirl · April 29th, 2012, 06:16 PM

Ninja 400? I did not know this existed.....

choneofakind · April 29th, 2012, 06:17 PM

It's a canadian model

it might be hard to find the parts for it, but if you can, it would completely be worth it. It's small enough that the engine would fit.

TnNinjaGirl · April 29th, 2012, 06:22 PM

Sorry for the OT, Devin....

Thought about putting an air cooled KLX250 or something in it. Especially after riding that SV650 today. She just needs more POWAH!!!!

Jiggles · April 29th, 2012, 06:23 PM

The ninja 400 is a ninja 650 engine, just with smaller pistons n crap

April 29th, 2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The ninja 400 is a ninja 650 engine, just with smaller pistons n crap

How much faster would the bike be?

TnNinjaGirl · April 29th, 2012, 06:35 PM

Than stock? The 650 is double the HP, so.... fast!

choneofakind · April 29th, 2012, 06:37 PM

and all that torque!!!!!

DevinWolfe · April 29th, 2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

Sorry for the OT, Devin....

Heh, don't mind me, OT is about all I do in most threads, I would be a hypocrite to be bothered by it.

Besides this thread is really just more of a way to think aloud than actually looking for direct answers as I know carb tuning is such a finicky ordeal.

I do wonder if insurance would need to know it has an aftermarket engine. Might be something worth looking into if my engine ever does take a s*** on me from all that neck wringing.

choneofakind · April 29th, 2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinWolfe

I do wonder if insurance would need to know it has an aftermarket engine. Might be something worth looking into if my engine ever does take a s*** on me from all that neck wringing.

a) your engine will be fine, because mine is still fine

b) no, don't tell insurance

TnNinjaGirl · April 29th, 2012, 06:52 PM

I missed a shift today and completely overrevved the engine. She ran fine all day. I usually run the Gap between 8-redline the whole time. 11,000 miles later and she still purrs like a kitten.

With that said, I change the oil religiously with Mobil1 and a K&N oil filter. I think she has a long life left ahead of her. These engines seem pretty bullet proof (knock on wood).

Oh, I went from Knoxville (1000 ft) to Clingman's Dome (6600 ft) today and there was no real change in performance.

ninja250r81 · April 30th, 2012, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choneofakind

It's a canadian model

it might be hard to find the parts for it, but if you can, it would completely be worth it. It's small enough that the engine would fit.

also uk "er4f" and new zealand "400r"

Engine 399 cc (24.3 cu in) DOHC 8 valves, liquid cooled parallel twin
Bore / Stroke 68.4 × 54.3 mm (2.69 × 2.14 in)
Compression ratio 11:1
Power 32 kW (43 hp) @ 9,500 rpm
Torque 37 N·m (27 lbf·ft) 7,500 rpm

April 28th, 2012, 04:43 PM	#1
DevinWolfe Which pedal is the gas? Name: Devin Location: Knoxville, TN Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 192	All Jets Feel the Same So I have yanked my airbox and switched to K&N R-0990, removed Kleen Air system and plugged the "chimney," as well as Swapped in 3 different sets of jets. I am also running a Yoshi slip-on w/ silencer. I have 108, 110, and 112. A/F mix screws set to 2 turns out as recommended on a different board (couldn't find a recommendation for A/F screws while determining main jet size here) and I have swapped in all 3 different sets of jets. They all felt pretty much the same 7-8K to redline @ WOT. The only realy noticeable difference to me was that the 112 seems to bog more at the lower end pulling away from a stop. I wouldn't think main jet would have that effect in the low end. They ALL feel way better than stock, but that may be a placebo effect from that roaring intake /shrug. Ideas? TL;DR -K&N R-0990 -Kleen Air removed -Yoshi Slip-on w/ silencer -A/F screws set 2 turns out -No shims -108, 110, and 112 jets feel the same

April 28th, 2012, 05:24 PM	#2
rdano1197 ninjette.org member Name: Bobby Location: stafford va Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r Posts: 12	In the process I am about to do the same mods, with a full exhaust. I have not done it yet, but from my understanding the main jet is for higher rpms, and the needle setting is for lower rpms. I could be mistaken, wrong, or only partly right. Here is a pic that might help explain what I am saying. Not sure I can provide much else to help. Did you change out the exhaust? Sync the carbs? RD

April 28th, 2012, 05:41 PM	#4
Jiggles Jigglin' your Jiglets Name: Sean Location: San Jose, Ca Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 1 MOTM - Apr '13	What brand jets? http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10208 __________________________________________________ If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs

April 29th, 2012, 06:23 PM	#19
Jiggles Jigglin' your Jiglets Name: Sean Location: San Jose, Ca Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 1 MOTM - Apr '13	The ninja 400 is a ninja 650 engine, just with smaller pistons n crap __________________________________________________ If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs

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April 28th, 2012, 05:29 PM	#3
DevinWolfe Which pedal is the gas? Name: Devin Location: Knoxville, TN Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 192	Those were my thoughts as well, the pic didn't come through but I assume it is the graph of which jets work when/where. THe only thing I can think of is that even the 108 is pig rich for my setup and the rest were even worse. I forgot to add that I have a Yoshi slip-on, added to orignal post. Have not synced the carbs, it has always been listed as the last thing to do after tuning so I was waiting to get my jets, shims, and A/F correct first.

April 28th, 2012, 05:44 PM	#5
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	if the 108 and 110 feel the same at WOT, and the 112 bogs a little bit, stick with the 110 You're high enough in the mountains that you likely are closer to right with a 108, but it's always good for a street bike to be a little rich to compensate for cold days. If you're worried about making sure the bike is running acceptable AFR's, take it to a shop to get a baseline dyno run. As long as there's no bogging or surging, there shouldn't be an issue.

April 28th, 2012, 05:49 PM	#7
DevinWolfe Which pedal is the gas? Name: Devin Location: Knoxville, TN Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 192	Well I could always "borrow" my wideband from my car (nitrous) to check out my AFR that way, but then I would have to find a bung and a shop to weld it onto the tiny stock pipes. Knoxville is actually only around 1100 ft where I ride (work/home) and I think Deal's Gap is only a few hundred higher than that, but I'm really not sure. Guess I could pull the plugs...

April 28th, 2012, 05:50 PM	#8
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	could you just ghetto rig the bung into the exhaust pipe temporarily?

April 28th, 2012, 05:52 PM	#9
DevinWolfe Which pedal is the gas? Name: Devin Location: Knoxville, TN Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 192	That far back I would think even on a bike my readings would lean as hell compared to actual. First time I have messed with fuel stuff on a bike so I may be mistaken.

April 28th, 2012, 06:38 PM	#10
DaBlue1 Long Time Rider Name: Blue Location: Charlotte, NC Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	Have you ever considered using a correction factor based on altitude and temperature? See Motorcycle Carburetor Theory 101-Altitude, Humidity, and Air Temperature I'd stick with the 108 main based on your set up, even for riding around the Dragon. While up at the Dragon you can go to Wheeler's Performance on 129 and get on the Dyno.

April 28th, 2012, 07:49 PM	#11
DevinWolfe Which pedal is the gas? Name: Devin Location: Knoxville, TN Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 192	Well I just took her out with the 112 jets to video WOT runs to time compared to the others. Already dark and I don't want to risk getting a ticket so I will have to do 110 and 108 tomorrow. I'm doing 3rd gear 45mph (~8K I think, can't remmber now but it'll be in the vid) -redline pulls. If 108 is better than the other 2 I may grab some 106s later. Gotta get my bases covered before I got nitrous and turbo (joke).

April 29th, 2012, 05:17 PM	#12
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	@DevinWolfe Same mods, 2 Bros instead of Yoshi. I'm running a 110. Check your plugs are the runs and see how they look. Maybe you can get some clues there? If they feel the same I would go with the biggest one that won't bog you down so you are on the rich side and safe. Pretty sure you know all of this stuff though. Oh, if you want to ride my bike for comparison let me know.

April 29th, 2012, 06:00 PM	#13
DevinWolfe Which pedal is the gas? Name: Devin Location: Knoxville, TN Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 192	Well, after switching back to 110, I found that it is a little stronger than the 112, camera didn't record so I can't compare video yet. Now it is down to the 108 and the 110. I have to ride a mile to get back to my garage from Clinton Hwy, so I would have to check the plugs on the side of the road to be really accurate for a WOT run. That really doesn't appeal to me, but I will do it I can't feel any difference between 108 and 110 I'm thinking my butt-dyno just needs to be calibrated... @TnNinjaGirl I may take you up on that, I just hate the thought of WOT on someone elses bike. Never liked driving other's cars but a bike is a lot more personal.

April 29th, 2012, 06:03 PM	#14
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	Doesn't bother me. I bought the thing to ride it. Besides, if you blow it up it gives me an excuse to put a 500 or 650 motor in it. Let me know when you have some free time. I'll check my schedule. There is a really good road in the Karns Industrial Park off of Oak Ridge Hwy that is really good for WOT testing and what not.

April 29th, 2012, 06:16 PM	#16
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	Ninja 400? I did not know this existed.....

April 29th, 2012, 06:17 PM	#17
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	It's a canadian model it might be hard to find the parts for it, but if you can, it would completely be worth it. It's small enough that the engine would fit.

April 29th, 2012, 06:22 PM	#18
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	Sorry for the OT, Devin.... Thought about putting an air cooled KLX250 or something in it. Especially after riding that SV650 today. She just needs more POWAH!!!!

April 29th, 2012, 06:35 PM	#21
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	Than stock? The 650 is double the HP, so.... fast!

April 29th, 2012, 06:37 PM	#22
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	and all that torque!!!!!

April 29th, 2012, 06:52 PM	#25
TnNinjaGirl Ms. Personality Name: CB Location: Murvill, TN Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.	I missed a shift today and completely overrevved the engine. She ran fine all day. I usually run the Gap between 8-redline the whole time. 11,000 miles later and she still purrs like a kitten. With that said, I change the oil religiously with Mobil1 and a K&N oil filter. I think she has a long life left ahead of her. These engines seem pretty bullet proof (knock on wood). Oh, I went from Knoxville (1000 ft) to Clingman's Dome (6600 ft) today and there was no real change in performance.