turn signal woes

95PGTTech · July 1st, 2015, 07:57 PM

Helping a friend troubleshoot/fix his 2008 250R that he right side lowsided in turn 9 at NJMP last year. Among the casualties were the right front turn signal and mirror.

He already has an integrated LED tail light. He purchased new LED turn signal mirros so he could ditch both front OEM turn signals. With a test light replacing the OEM right front turn signal (gone), both signals front and rear work correctly. With the new LEDs hooked up, neither front or rear work correctly.

We put an EP34 LED compatible relay on the bike and now both front and rear flash at the correct rate, but only in "4 way mode". What i mean to say is if you try to turn the left signal on, both flash. If you try to put the right signal on, both flash.

We thought there may be some damaged wire from the crash but based on our first diagnostic with the test light, everything works as it did pre-crash. We are wiring the LED front turn signals to the stock turn signal wiring.

Motofool · July 1st, 2015, 08:22 PM

Welcome, Chris !!!

Maybe this could help:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Emergency_Flashers_1

95PGTTech · July 1st, 2015, 08:30 PM

Thank you. While in theory it's possible that the two of those wires are shorting together, the fact that everything works correctly with the OEM left signal and the test light right signal (front) and the integrated LED tail on the stock relay makes me think the likelihood of that is low. Also, that connection is located on the left undamaged side of the bike.

I considered that perhaps I wired the new LED relay incorrectly. There are 3 pins on the new relay, 2 on the stock one. I installed it in all 3 possible positions, it only works in one. The third pin is grounded, which I verified by multimeter .002 ohms between my new fabricated ground and battery ground. When we had the stock relay in with LED rear and front, it was giving a ton of unusual/intermittent issues that are not worth getting into, but now it flashes at correct rate and brightness. I do not believe the relay to be the problem.

Also, the LED front signals are a two wire connection, as are the stock ones. I quickly tried changing the wiring the other way around, nothing. They only function one way.

Ghostt · July 1st, 2015, 09:14 PM

My write-up should help, and welcome

The cluster turn signal indicator bulb works by shorting out the left and right side signal circuits to each other. The bulb has a tiny filament so almost no current flows, that keeps both sides from flashing at the same time because it takes several Watts to illuminate the large incandescent bulb filaments in the turn signals. However, it only takes milliwatts for an LED bulb to light up, so that little bulb in the cluster will allow enough current to light up all four turn signal bulbs if they're LED. The different amount of current will also cause the turn signal flasher relay to activate at a different speed, or even not at all. Typically it flashes too fast.

You can fix the no flash/speed flash problem with a fixed-rate flasher relay module, either one with the Kawasaki connector on it such as this:
http://www.cyclegear.com/search/go#?...pe:allproducts

Or using an automotive "heavy duty" flasher relay and short jumper wires to adapt it to the Kawasaki connector. If you go the latter route, get the Tridon EP34
Tridon EP34 Flasher https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00064LQKS..._F8lgvb037KJ8D

This style flasher uses electronic timers to control the flash rate rather than relying on bulb current like ordinary flashers do.

The four-way flash problem is more difficult to fix, at least if you want to keep the instrument cluster bulb working. You can take the bulb out, that will separate the two sides and solve the problem, or you can do a simple modification to the wiring at the socket for that bulb that involves installing two diodes and a bit of minor cutting and splicing. Here's info on the modifications needed: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_LED_...27t_work_right

Another option for the NewGen 08 & up, it a no cut diode kit
2008-2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R EX250 No-Cut Diode Kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BHOGOA8..._j.lgvb0EAPY0W

One last consideration: The OEM bulbs are different for the '06-07 year models, and they draw less current than the '05-back's larger bulbs. The newer bulbs are smaller to fit inside the smaller, more rounded housing. If you use an OEM flasher relay from the incorrect year models your signals will flash either too fast or too slow.

95PGTTech · July 2nd, 2015, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostt

My write-up should help, and welcome

The cluster turn signal indicator bulb works by shorting out the left and right side signal circuits to each other. The bulb has a tiny filament so almost no current flows, that keeps both sides from flashing at the same time because it takes several Watts to illuminate the large incandescent bulb filaments in the turn signals. However, it only takes milliwatts for an LED bulb to light up, so that little bulb in the cluster will allow enough current to light up all four turn signal bulbs if they're LED. The different amount of current will also cause the turn signal flasher relay to activate at a different speed, or even not at all. Typically it flashes too fast.

You can fix the no flash/speed flash problem with a fixed-rate flasher relay module, either one with the Kawasaki connector on it such as this:
http://www.cyclegear.com/search/go#?...pe:allproducts

Or using an automotive "heavy duty" flasher relay and short jumper wires to adapt it to the Kawasaki connector. If you go the latter route, get the Tridon EP34
Tridon EP34 Flasher https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00064LQKS..._F8lgvb037KJ8D

This style flasher uses electronic timers to control the flash rate rather than relying on bulb current like ordinary flashers do.

I have an EP34 in it now plugged into the stock connector with the extra pin grounded (I found a writeup on here of how to wire it). I verified ground is good and of the three possible ways you could install the relay, it only works in one orientation.

Since installing, all four turn signal bulbs flash at correct rate and brightness. The problem is, they ALL flash all the time. It is as though left or right signal command functions like a hazard 4 way in a car.

Quote:

The four-way flash problem is more difficult to fix, at least if you want to keep the instrument cluster bulb working. You can take the bulb out, that will separate the two sides and solve the problem, or you can do a simple modification to the wiring at the socket for that bulb that involves installing two diodes and a bit of minor cutting and splicing. Here's info on the modifications needed: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_LED_...27t_work_right

Another option for the NewGen 08 & up, it a no cut diode kit
2008-2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R EX250 No-Cut Diode Kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BHOGOA8..._j.lgvb0EAPY0W

So as a quick diagnostic we could simply disconnect the left/right indicator on the gauge cluster and see if they function correctly, then go through the process of installing the diodes?

Thanks, your writeup was EXTREMELY extensive and helpful!

Ghostt · July 2nd, 2015, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95PGTTech

I have an EP34 in it now plugged into the stock connector with the extra pin grounded (I found a writeup on here of how to wire it). I verified ground is good and of the three possible ways you could install the relay, it only works in one orientation.

Since installing, all four turn signal bulbs flash at correct rate and brightness. The problem is, they ALL flash all the time. It is as though left or right signal command functions like a hazard 4 way in a car.

So as a quick diagnostic we could simply disconnect the left/right indicator on the gauge cluster and see if they function correctly, then go through the process of installing the diodes?

Thanks, your writeup was EXTREMELY extensive and helpful!

Correct, and your welcome

95PGTTech · July 7th, 2015, 01:23 PM

I was able to get the bike completely torn down today and do the test of removing the bulb - no change. If I disconnect the entire cluster at the two large white connectors, no change.

I have noticed that both front and rear if you hit left turn indicator, although both front and rear all 4 flash at correct speed, left is brighter. Same thing vice versa. But to an oncoming car/car following, they would clearly see 4 ways.

InvisiBill · July 7th, 2015, 02:06 PM

The turn signal circuit is quite simple. The flasher converts the "solid" power from the fusebox on the orange/green wire to "flashing" power on the orange wire. The left control switch connects that wire to either the green or gray wire (for left or right side), where it goes through the bulb and to the black/yellow common ground to complete the circuit. The dash indicator is connected to the + of each side (green and gray wires), so when the left side is on, gray is + and green is -, and vice versa for when the right signal is on. The inefficiency of the stock bulbs is all that keeps them from lighting up on the wrong side - efficient LEDs will indeed light up on the opposite side, giving you the 4-way problem like you're seeing. The diodes are 1-way gates to stop it from feeding across to the other side.

There are only a few possible causes for both sides to light up. The most common is through the dash indicator when using more efficient lights (but taking out the bulb completely breaks that link). If the switch in the left control is somehow broken, it could activate both sides at the same time, just like 4-ways (this is possible, but pretty unlikely). Beyond that, it could really only be damage to the green and/or gray wires, sending power to the light(s) via some unintended short circuit.

95PGTTech · July 8th, 2015, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

The turn signal circuit is quite simple. The flasher converts the "solid" power from the fusebox on the orange/green wire to "flashing" power on the orange wire. The left control switch connects that wire to either the green or gray wire (for left or right side), where it goes through the bulb and to the black/yellow common ground to complete the circuit. The dash indicator is connected to the + of each side (green and gray wires), so when the left side is on, gray is + and green is -, and vice versa for when the right signal is on. The inefficiency of the stock bulbs is all that keeps them from lighting up on the wrong side - efficient LEDs will indeed light up on the opposite side, giving you the 4-way problem like you're seeing. The diodes are 1-way gates to stop it from feeding across to the other side.

There are only a few possible causes for both sides to light up. The most common is through the dash indicator when using more efficient lights (but taking out the bulb completely breaks that link). If the switch in the left control is somehow broken, it could activate both sides at the same time, just like 4-ways (this is possible, but pretty unlikely). Beyond that, it could really only be damage to the green and/or gray wires, sending power to the light(s) via some unintended short circuit.

I follow what you're saying especially after looking at the diagram, I just don't understand why it's still happening with the bulb pulled out and/or the cluster completely disconnected at the large white connectors.

I'm just going to run by radioshack today and try the diodes. The plug and play kit looks nice but I'm not waiting another week plus. If they don't have 1N4001 in stock, can I use 1N4002 or 1N4003? After doing some reading, it seems like they are identical except they can tolerate higher reverse flow without grenading.

95PGTTech · July 8th, 2015, 07:33 AM

Just to clarify, in the above diagram I am going after the green with black tracer and grey wires. Since I am making a ground wire, I would prefer to do this on the bike (chassis) side of the connection rather than the front headlight fairing side.

Is it ok that these two are located on different connectors? The green/black I found is directly above my thumb to the left of the brown wire, while the only grey is on the other 2 wire connector?

InvisiBill · July 8th, 2015, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95PGTTech

Just to clarify, in the above diagram I am going after the green with black tracer and grey wires. Since I am making a ground wire, I would prefer to do this on the bike (chassis) side of the connection rather than the front headlight fairing side.

Is it ok that these two are located on different connectors? The green/black I found is directly above my thumb to the left of the brown wire, while the only grey is on the other 2 wire connector?

No, you want the plain dark green wire. Light green/black is the fuel gauge wire, and plain light green is the neutral wire. It looks like the correct one is in the back left in your pic.

Yes, the gray wire for the right signal is in a separate connector (along with the red/black for the high beam). It would be way easier to do this mod (to fix Kaw's cheapout) if Kaw had used the second connector for all three turn signal wires or headlight wires, rather than splitting everything up.

Personally, I prefer to splice into the black/yellow common ground wire rather than grounding directly to the engine/frame. They should all be grounded together eventually, but the wire is designed to be the ground for the electrical components, and isn't dependent on getting good contact with metal that's fully connected.

95PGTTech · July 14th, 2015, 12:49 PM

I was finally able to get off enough time to try the diodes (IN4004) were the lowest available. I twisted both cathodes together and broke the green wire, soldering the cathodes towards the cluster and one of the anodes to the chassis side of the green. then I split the grey wire and soldered the chassis side to the other anode. then I took that cluster side grey and tied it into the common ground on the cluster. soldered and heat shrinked all connections as pictured.

No changes, except maybe the indicator on the cluster flashes brighter now. The direction you indicate flashes brighter front and rear but still 4 way.

Tried removing one mirror at a time, no change. Tried switching mirrors side to side, no change. Stock black/yellow to mirror white, green to red on both sides. From what I remember of previous diag, neither mirror worked in any other configuration. Relay is an EP34 using stock relay connector plus a ground, it doesn't function in any other possible configuration. Rear tail is an unknown brand integrated unit looked hacked in there but did function prior to all this with stock relay and stock halogen front turns

95PGTTech · July 14th, 2015, 01:32 PM

EDIT: If I disconnect the two plugs going to the rear tail lights, mirrors and turn signal indicator on dash function as they should. After cutting what seemed like two pounds of electrical tape off of the harness, this is what I am left with.

You are viewing the image as if you were standing overtop the driver (left) side of the bike.

95PGTTech · July 14th, 2015, 03:38 PM

Based off of how they are wired and the color layout, I am thinking it is a bikemonkey integrated tail based on other threads such as this one.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21581

Most of them say yellow wire goes to your right hand hot stock wire, blue wire goes to your left hand hot stock wire. Ground wires get cut as the unit grounds through the black/yellow in the center set of 3 wires. Each of these white boxes read 10ohms, I am betting this was some sort of fix to get this tail to work with the stock halogen front turns. Notice how they are spliced together, I am hoping this is my short. Going to go out and test quick now, wish me luck.

95PGTTech · July 14th, 2015, 03:57 PM

Finally, that's EXACTLY what it was. Someone originally installed the LED integrated tail and used that wiring method to make it work with stock flasher and stock front halogen turn signals. Thanks to anyone who contributed to the thread.

Cliffnotes: use an EP34 relay from any parts store with the stock relay connector and ground the extra port. wire led front turn signals black/yellow to white, green to red. wire tail blue to driver side green (black connector) and yellow to passenger side green (grey connector). delete/cut both side grounds (black/yellow). remember to plug in the center connector when testing, that's the ground it won't work without it.

optional: get your turn signal indicator working as diagrammed/pictured above. as I did it, the cluster still removes/disconnects like the stock one no additional connections to undo. I would not want to not have that indicator on a loud bike.

July 1st, 2015, 07:57 PM	#1
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	turn signal woes Helping a friend troubleshoot/fix his 2008 250R that he right side lowsided in turn 9 at NJMP last year. Among the casualties were the right front turn signal and mirror. He already has an integrated LED tail light. He purchased new LED turn signal mirros so he could ditch both front OEM turn signals. With a test light replacing the OEM right front turn signal (gone), both signals front and rear work correctly. With the new LEDs hooked up, neither front or rear work correctly. We put an EP34 LED compatible relay on the bike and now both front and rear flash at the correct rate, but only in "4 way mode". What i mean to say is if you try to turn the left signal on, both flash. If you try to put the right signal on, both flash. We thought there may be some damaged wire from the crash but based on our first diagnostic with the test light, everything works as it did pre-crash. We are wiring the LED front turn signals to the stock turn signal wiring.

July 1st, 2015, 08:22 PM	#2
Motofool Daily Ninjette rider Name: Hernan Location: Florida Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16	Welcome, Chris !!! Maybe this could help: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Emergency_Flashers_1 __________________________________________________ *Motofool* *.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly* "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí

July 1st, 2015, 09:14 PM	#4
Ghostt in your machine Name: Scott Location: Summer Shade, Ky. Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 25 MOTM - Jun '17, May '16, Mar '15	My write-up should help, and welcome The cluster turn signal indicator bulb works by shorting out the left and right side signal circuits to each other. The bulb has a tiny filament so almost no current flows, that keeps both sides from flashing at the same time because it takes several Watts to illuminate the large incandescent bulb filaments in the turn signals. However, it only takes milliwatts for an LED bulb to light up, so that little bulb in the cluster will allow enough current to light up all four turn signal bulbs if they're LED. The different amount of current will also cause the turn signal flasher relay to activate at a different speed, or even not at all. Typically it flashes too fast. You can fix the no flash/speed flash problem with a fixed-rate flasher relay module, either one with the Kawasaki connector on it such as this: http://www.cyclegear.com/search/go#?...pe:allproducts Or using an automotive "heavy duty" flasher relay and short jumper wires to adapt it to the Kawasaki connector. If you go the latter route, get the Tridon EP34 Tridon EP34 Flasher https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00064LQKS..._F8lgvb037KJ8D This style flasher uses electronic timers to control the flash rate rather than relying on bulb current like ordinary flashers do. The four-way flash problem is more difficult to fix, at least if you want to keep the instrument cluster bulb working. You can take the bulb out, that will separate the two sides and solve the problem, or you can do a simple modification to the wiring at the socket for that bulb that involves installing two diodes and a bit of minor cutting and splicing. Here's info on the modifications needed: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_LED_...27t_work_right Another option for the NewGen 08 & up, it a no cut diode kit 2008-2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R EX250 No-Cut Diode Kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BHOGOA8..._j.lgvb0EAPY0W One last consideration: The OEM bulbs are different for the '06-07 year models, and they draw less current than the '05-back's larger bulbs. The newer bulbs are smaller to fit inside the smaller, more rounded housing. If you use an OEM flasher relay from the incorrect year models your signals will flash either too fast or too slow. __________________________________________________ *violente et ignorantia* ZX-2R BLOG *Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott* *I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform.*
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

July 7th, 2015, 02:06 PM	#8
InvisiBill EX500 full of EX250 parts Name: Bill Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1 MOTM - Aug '15	The turn signal circuit is quite simple. The flasher converts the "solid" power from the fusebox on the orange/green wire to "flashing" power on the orange wire. The left control switch connects that wire to either the green or gray wire (for left or right side), where it goes through the bulb and to the black/yellow common ground to complete the circuit. The dash indicator is connected to the + of each side (green and gray wires), so when the left side is on, gray is + and green is -, and vice versa for when the right signal is on. The inefficiency of the stock bulbs is all that keeps them from lighting up on the wrong side - efficient LEDs will indeed light up on the opposite side, giving you the 4-way problem like you're seeing. The diodes are 1-way gates to stop it from feeding across to the other side. There are only a few possible causes for both sides to light up. The most common is through the dash indicator when using more efficient lights (but taking out the bulb completely breaks that link). If the switch in the left control is somehow broken, it could activate both sides at the same time, just like 4-ways (this is possible, but pretty unlikely). Beyond that, it could really only be damage to the green and/or gray wires, sending power to the light(s) via some unintended short circuit. __________________________________________________ * Unregistered, I'm not your mom and I'm not paying for your parts, so do whatever you want with your own bike. *

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July 1st, 2015, 08:30 PM	#3
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	Thank you. While in theory it's possible that the two of those wires are shorting together, the fact that everything works correctly with the OEM left signal and the test light right signal (front) and the integrated LED tail on the stock relay makes me think the likelihood of that is low. Also, that connection is located on the left undamaged side of the bike. I considered that perhaps I wired the new LED relay incorrectly. There are 3 pins on the new relay, 2 on the stock one. I installed it in all 3 possible positions, it only works in one. The third pin is grounded, which I verified by multimeter .002 ohms between my new fabricated ground and battery ground. When we had the stock relay in with LED rear and front, it was giving a ton of unusual/intermittent issues that are not worth getting into, but now it flashes at correct rate and brightness. I do not believe the relay to be the problem. Also, the LED front signals are a two wire connection, as are the stock ones. I quickly tried changing the wiring the other way around, nothing. They only function one way.

July 7th, 2015, 01:23 PM	#7
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	I was able to get the bike completely torn down today and do the test of removing the bulb - no change. If I disconnect the entire cluster at the two large white connectors, no change. I have noticed that both front and rear if you hit left turn indicator, although both front and rear all 4 flash at correct speed, left is brighter. Same thing vice versa. But to an oncoming car/car following, they would clearly see 4 ways.

July 8th, 2015, 07:33 AM	#10
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	Just to clarify, in the above diagram I am going after the green with black tracer and grey wires. Since I am making a ground wire, I would prefer to do this on the bike (chassis) side of the connection rather than the front headlight fairing side. Is it ok that these two are located on different connectors? The green/black I found is directly above my thumb to the left of the brown wire, while the only grey is on the other 2 wire connector?

July 14th, 2015, 12:49 PM	#12
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	I was finally able to get off enough time to try the diodes (IN4004) were the lowest available. I twisted both cathodes together and broke the green wire, soldering the cathodes towards the cluster and one of the anodes to the chassis side of the green. then I split the grey wire and soldered the chassis side to the other anode. then I took that cluster side grey and tied it into the common ground on the cluster. soldered and heat shrinked all connections as pictured. No changes, except maybe the indicator on the cluster flashes brighter now. The direction you indicate flashes brighter front and rear but still 4 way. Tried removing one mirror at a time, no change. Tried switching mirrors side to side, no change. Stock black/yellow to mirror white, green to red on both sides. From what I remember of previous diag, neither mirror worked in any other configuration. Relay is an EP34 using stock relay connector plus a ground, it doesn't function in any other possible configuration. Rear tail is an unknown brand integrated unit looked hacked in there but did function prior to all this with stock relay and stock halogen front turns

July 14th, 2015, 01:32 PM	#13
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	EDIT: If I disconnect the two plugs going to the rear tail lights, mirrors and turn signal indicator on dash function as they should. After cutting what seemed like two pounds of electrical tape off of the harness, this is what I am left with. You are viewing the image as if you were standing overtop the driver (left) side of the bike.

July 14th, 2015, 03:38 PM	#14
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	Based off of how they are wired and the color layout, I am thinking it is a bikemonkey integrated tail based on other threads such as this one. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21581 Most of them say yellow wire goes to your right hand hot stock wire, blue wire goes to your left hand hot stock wire. Ground wires get cut as the unit grounds through the black/yellow in the center set of 3 wires. Each of these white boxes read 10ohms, I am betting this was some sort of fix to get this tail to work with the stock halogen front turns. Notice how they are spliced together, I am hoping this is my short. Going to go out and test quick now, wish me luck.

July 14th, 2015, 03:57 PM	#15
95PGTTech ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Bordentown, NJ Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 102	Finally, that's EXACTLY what it was. Someone originally installed the LED integrated tail and used that wiring method to make it work with stock flasher and stock front halogen turn signals. Thanks to anyone who contributed to the thread. Cliffnotes: use an EP34 relay from any parts store with the stock relay connector and ground the extra port. wire led front turn signals black/yellow to white, green to red. wire tail blue to driver side green (black connector) and yellow to passenger side green (grey connector). delete/cut both side grounds (black/yellow). remember to plug in the center connector when testing, that's the ground it won't work without it. optional: get your turn signal indicator working as diagrammed/pictured above. as I did it, the cluster still removes/disconnects like the stock one no additional connections to undo. I would not want to not have that indicator on a loud bike.