Kawasaki Announces Major 2013 Ninjette Remodel

[diablos991]

Damn!

I missed the date since we are 2 weeks past the 1st.... I started to get excite!

[n4mwd]

I think the only thing holding Kawasaki back from giving us an EFI Ninja is the price point. In addition to EFI, the UK Ninja 250 also has an electronic speedometer which is nice. The UK Ninja costs in US dollars roughly the same as we (in the US) would pay for a 650 - roughly $7500 USD.

So we may get EFI, but don't be surprised if they do something mean like take a way the kick stand or a piston or something.

[akima]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

In addition to EFI, the UK Ninja 250 also has an electronic speedometer which is nice.

My dash isn't digital... it's all analogue like the USA ninjette.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So we may get EFI, but don't be surprised if they do something mean like take a way the kick stand or a piston or something.

lol, that would be mean.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I think the only thing holding Kawasaki back from giving us an EFI Ninja is the price point.

...and the lack of needing to put EFI on the US bike. We don't have nearly as strict emissions standards as Europe and UK. They have no incentive to bring EFI here until either a) their sales drop as a direct result of not having EFI or b) the gov't starts enforcing more strict emissions regulations on motorcycles under 250cc's. Currently, the bike is still selling like hotcakes and the carb'd ninja still manages to be within the law for emissions.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

In addition to EFI, the UK Ninja 250 also has an electronic speedometer which is nice.

That would suck. If you changed gearing, that would be another $100 to have to spend on a speedo healer. The biggest thing about the UK ninja that's nicer than the US ninja is the temp gauge!!

[akima]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The biggest thing about the UK ninja that's nicer than the US ninja is the temp gauge!!

I do have one of those!... but... it's only really useful when I'm stuck in traffic to make sure the engine isn't over heating. For the first 20 minutes of most rides the gauge stays at 0... doesn't budge.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by akima

it's only really useful when I'm stuck in traffic to make sure the engine isn't over heating

yeah that's what I like about my pregen. I can keep an eye on the temp at various points in my rides. I dunno, I'm just not a fan of not being able to tell when the engine is up to temp. The temp gauge is a good way to tell if something is wrong, kinda the same idea as keeping track of my gas mileage; if the mileage suddenly tanks, I know there might be something wrong. If the temp gauge is suddenly pegged way higher or lower than normal, I know something might be up.

[Racer x]

I am thinking of getting another 250 ninja to ride on the street. First mod is the Koso dash. Everything else I can live with.

[akima]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

yeah that's what I like about my pregen

that, and she's beautiful

[akima]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I am thinking of getting another 250 ninja to ride on the street. First mod is the Koso dash. Everything else I can live with.

You gotta get rid of that ugly number plate holder/fender/coat hanger thing hanging off the back end too! I like to think of it as being an umbilical cord... an intrinsic part of a newly born ninjette, but something that needs to be cut off asap.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by akima

that, and she's beautiful

well, DUH!!

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by akima

You gotta get rid of that ugly number plate holder/fender/coat hanger thing hanging off the back end too! I like to think of it as being an umbilical cord... an intrinsic part of a newly born ninjette, but something that needs to be cut off asap.

Do they come with that thing still? It got cut off mine when I got home . I have a tail tidy already. So ya I gotta do that first THEN THE DASH.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

...

That would suck. If you changed gearing, that would be another $100 to have to spend on a speedo healer. The biggest thing about the UK ninja that's nicer than the US ninja is the temp gauge!!

Uh, gearing doesn't affect speedo most of time, but front tire size can.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Uh, gearing doesn't affect speedo most of time, but front tire size can.

ohhhhhhh hang on, I thought electronic speedometer as in speedometer that's driven off the flywheel. That would change the speedo with gearing changes.

I'm guessing it's just an electronic display that's driven off the front wheel? My bad

[Racer x]

The others thing I don't like about the stock dash. I want accurate gauges. The stock speedo is off by 10%. Plus I like the temp gauge and a clock is nice to have. Gas gauge and trip meter is fun to play with .

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by akima

My dash isn't digital... it's all analogue like the USA ninjette.

Its analog, but its electronic underneath. The US speedometer is mechanical. There is a cable that goes from it down to a gearbox on axle of the left front wheel. I'm not sure where the pickup is for the UK Ninja 250, but its probably in a similar location to the 650.



In theory, an electronic speedometer can be adjusted to 100% accuracy. But somehow I don't think Kawasaki was nice enough to let us do that.

Kawasaki has to compete with Honda which is stealing market share primarily due to their EFI. Hopefully that will be enough incentive for them to do the right thing.

@akima, do you know what the list price of the UK Ninja 250 was before they went to EFI? The increase that you guys had might give us an idea what to expect over here.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Honda which is stealing market share [citation needed] primarily due to their EFI [citation needed].

Do you actually have numbers for this? I've not read about any Kawasaki dealers having trouble getting rid of any ninja 250's, and if they were, I would be interested in studies of people who recently purchased 250's exactly why they bought what they did.

not trying to be a dick. I just don't think this is accurate.

[akima]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Its analog, but its electronic underneath. The US speedometer is mechanical. There is a cable that goes from it down to a gearbox on axle of the left front wheel. I'm not sure where the pickup is for the UK Ninja 250, but its probably in a similar location to the 650.



In theory, an electronic speedometer can be adjusted to 100% accuracy. But somehow I don't think Kawasaki was nice enough to let us do that.

Kawasaki has to compete with Honda which is stealing market share primarily due to their EFI. Hopefully that will be enough incentive for them to do the right thing.

@akima, do you know what the list price of the UK Ninja 250 was before they went to EFI? The increase that you guys had might give us an idea what to expect over here.

That speedo stuff makes sense to me now.

I'm pretty sure that the new-gen ninjette has always been EFI here. No idea about the pregen.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Do you actually have numbers for this? I've not read about any Kawasaki dealers having trouble getting rid of any ninja 250's, and if they were, I would be interested in studies of people who recently purchased 250's exactly why they bought what they did.

not trying to be a dick. I just don't think this is accurate.

Its just basic economics. There is a finite number of 250 buyers. When the pie is sliced in half, the guy who used to have the whole pie now side gets fewer sales than before.

There is actually a third 250 out there, but I never hear about them so I don't think they are a significant player. Honda is.

Honda would do even better if they had two cylinders and better performance and fuel economy. Other than that, its a first rate bike and is a serious competitor to the Ninja 250.

For someone (that hadn't already decided to get a Ninja) in a showroom looking at the two side by side, the Honda actually stacks up better than then Ninja. The dash is more modern. It has EFI. It has a good overall look. And its cheaper. The Ninja's overall superior performance isn't something you can see in the showroom.

[n4mwd]

Sales figures are mixed depending on who you ask:

http://weeklyautomotive.com/honda-cb...-position.html
says in April 2011, Honda CBR250R sales reached 979 units and Ninja 250R sales dropped to only 953 units.

In the Australian market according to:
http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive...lf/Top_Ten.htm

Top Ten selling models (All motorcycle & scooter) / Percentage change in comparison to 2010 First Half

1. Kawasaki Ninja 250R 1093 +15.4%
2. Honda CT110X 1034 -4.4%
3. Honda CBR250R 889 (new model)
4. Honda CRF50F 694 -3.6%
5. Yamaha YZ450F 566 -11.3%
6. Suzuki DR-Z400E 548 -9.9%
7. Honda CRF250R 495 -20.7%
8. Honda CRF230F 483 +12.1%
9. Yamaha YZ250F 449 -3.6%
10. Yamaha PW50 444 +18.4%

Note that although the Ninja is at the top of the list, its the ONLY bike Kawasaki has on it. Add up the other bikes on that list to see what Honda is doing.

I think the Honda CT110X is some sort of moped which is apparently very popular in Australia.

I also found this:
2012 Australian Motorcycle Sales -- Top Ten Road Motorcycles

Model YTD 2012 YTD 2011 % Change
Honda CBR250R 729 135 +440
Honda CT110X 462 538 -14.1
Kawasaki Ninja 250R 388 354 +9.6

Info from Australian Motorcycle News. Sales of the Ninja were basically half that of the Honda CBR250R. The Honda sales last year were off because the model didn't come out until February. These figures were based on Jan-April or both 2011 and 2012.

So yes, the Honda CBR250R is giving the Ninja 250 a run for its money, but the Honda is $500 cheaper and Ninja is an overall better bike (not counting the absence of EFI).

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

@akima, do you know what the list price of the UK Ninja 250 was before they went to EFI? The increase that you guys had might give us an idea what to expect over here.

Carbs were never an option on the EU models, very strict emission regulations have put an end to most carbed bikes & almost every 2stroke over here.

I think Aprilia still has the RS125 stroker, but other than that everything here is EFI 4stroke.

I expect an announcement of a new 400cc machine from at least one of the big 4 this year, the EU rules are changing pushing an A2 class licence where ~400cc 47bhp bikes are likely to replace the current A* class of 33bhp bikes (Ninja, CBR & hyosung Gt-R 250s)

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Note that although the Ninja is at the top of the list, its the ONLY bike Kawasaki has on it. Add up the other bikes on that list to see what Honda is doing.

Interesting info thanks!

The only thing to consider is that in 2011, the CBR was the brand spanking new bike in town, so that might either have the effect of artificially inflating or hurting sales just because it's brand new. We won't know for sure based only on the initial sales year.

Also, that still leaves the question of why people purchased the Honda over the Kawi. If the reason is something about the bike that makes it more desirable, Kawi will do what they can to be competitive. While that is your main argument for thinking Kawi will introduce efi to the 250, that will only be if Kawi can link lost sales directly to the method of fuel delivery in comparison to the Honda. If it's something like aesthetics or handling, they're not going to fix that by making the bike efi.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

While that is your main argument for thinking Kawi will introduce efi to the 250, that will only be if Kawi can link lost sales directly to the method of fuel delivery in comparison to the Honda. If it's something like aesthetics or handling, they're not going to fix that by making the bike efi.

EFI and a new dash will put Kawasaki back on top. But the extra $500 in this economy will still sting.

[choneofakind]

$500 at the very very least. Just the TB's are going for $200...

I know the ecotrons kit is only $500, but oem components are higher quality, and are going to be more expensive when adding onto the price tag.

[LoneRonin]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The Ninja's overall superior performance isn't something you can see in the showroom.

Its overall sexy Ninja looks slap the taste out of the CBR's mouth...and that is something that you can definitely see in the showroom.

[etiainen]

I don't see Kawi changing the Ninjette for a few years. Other than colours and small stuff.

[Malicious Logic]

I just recently purchased a Ninja 250r over the CBR 250. While I did end up buying used, I was open to buying new for a CBR since they're a good deal for the price. I ended up going with the Ninja over the CBR for various reasons that I'm sure might not matter to other buyers, such as performance and looks. Fuel injection didn't really seem like a must have for me and while the new dash was nice, it seemed the Ninja 250 had more to offer performance wise. Just offering a recent buyer's perspective since Chris brought it up.

I think it can go a lot of different ways. If the buyer has done their research, they may opt for the Ninja 250r or go for the CBR 250 depending on what really matters to them. If they go in with no research, again, it could go either way. The looks of the Ninja could sway them to go for that first or they might end up going with the CBR 250 because it's the 'better buy'. I do agree with D that EFI and a new Dash would make the Ninja 250r a very hard bike to contend with, with the exception of those people who actually like how the CBR looks. Do I think it'll happen anytime soon? Probably not.

[choneofakind]

Good input Mark.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

$500 at the very very least. Just the TB's are going for $200...

I know the ecotrons kit is only $500, but oem components are higher quality, and are going to be more expensive when adding onto the price tag.

The UK throttle bodies are selling for $200 used. The retail price for new ones is about $750. Coincidentally, they charge the same price for new carburetors for the Ninja 250. The UK throttle body has extra junk in it that isn't really necessary. Throw all that stuff out and it would cost them about $20 to make one.

Carburetors are much more complicated and precise and harder to build than TB's. But EFI makes up the difference with the need for O2 sensors and a fuel pump.

So all totaled, an EFI Ninja is more expensive to make, but not by much. At the very least, they could offer both versions.

As far as the dash, they have no excuse. Electronic dashes are WAY easier and cheaper to make.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Throw all that stuff out and it would cost them about $20 to make one.

You have a source for that number?

[Mulholland]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You have a source for that number?

If you ever bothered to re-read a post before you comment on it.... he says that The cost of a new throttle body from kawisaki is ~$750, and the cost of a carb is coincidently ~$750, so what he is saying by the "it'd cost them ~$20" portion that you read and took out of context, is referencing the increased cost of a EFI 250r over a carb'd 250r. He is saying Kawi's cost on each bike owuldn't go up that much if the physical compentents are costing the same carb vs TB. The difference there is minimal. There are still other electrical components, and the cost would still be substantially higher, but that specific component being brought up to cite an increase in cost was a poor example.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Mulholland

If you ever bothered to re-read a post before you comment on it....

no, he was referencing the $20 for the parts of the TB that weren't unnecessary. See below, where I quoted the sentence ahead of the line I originally quoted. He stated that the TB would cost $20 IF the extra junk was not used.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The UK throttle body has extra junk in it that isn't really necessary. Throw all that stuff out and it would cost them about $20 to make one.

The TB alone costs the same as the carbs. All the extra electronics are going to cost more in addition to that.

Is it really all that terrible to ask for a credible source when a number is given? Even Wikipedia asks for sources because they're a simple way to keep credibility.



As a side note @Mulholland:
I don't see you attacking every other member who ever takes something out of context when they read it. This is the internet where we communicate through writing. Things get taken out of context in writing all the time. Please stop making everything a direct attack on me. Notice how when I was discussing this topic with D, I only asked about his source for numbers. I never directed any personal issues at him, I was simply discussing the topic of the thread at hand. D knows from experience I'm only looking for accurate numbers that can be trusted and am not attacking him personally for what he has posted. He knows that I'm just asking for facts and clarification on a topic I find interesting. If I did read something out of context, that was his chance to either explain it to me or show proof to back up it claim. It's as simple as that.

I'm sorry you have such a strong dislike for me but frankly, that's not my problem. If you have an issue with what I say, either ignore me or act like an adult and discuss the topic at hand to correct what I say in a respectful manner. Please stop making personal attacks on me at every chance you have to do so. Also notice that I have been civil towards you ever since our last encounter and have not made any snide comments or implications. I would appreciate your civility in return. Can you do that? Or am I being naive and expecting too much from certain members of this forum?

[Mulholland]

I did discuss the topic at hand. I clarified what your were struggling to comprehend by explaining it in a more drawn out detailed breakdown. I am pretty sure the $20 he threw out was a hyperbole. I didn't read it as a literal figure a Kawasaki/industry rep gave him personally when he was interviewing them about the forthcoming EFI 250r...


furthermore, I also stated that the cost of the other electronics would obviously still add substancially to the cost of the bike, however I relayed back to you that he was only responding to a previous poster in regards to the cost of the throttle bodies being ~$200 used indicating the cost of an EFI 250r. He was simply showing that any cost difference beween the carb/TB is fairly negligible in the price difference o fhte EFI and carb'd models, were they to bring the 250r with EFI to the US. I am not sure if you failed to read what I had typed out as usual, or if you just felt the need to reiterate what I had already stated to be fact.

It wasn't any off-topic personal attact to break down and point out that you failed to comprehend what was typed, and that if you simply re-read the post perhaps you would better understand what was being discussed. You choose to take offense, I cannot help that.

[alex.s]

[Jiggles]

So much built up sexual tension, you guys just need to bang and get it over with

[choneofakind]

Me and @alex.s? I'm dtf.

[etiainen]

Took me 5 seconds to figure out dtf.

I suck with acronyms.

[choneofakind]

go to google and type,

define: *word/phrase you are looking to define*

That usually works. urbandictionary is also a great place to go

[etiainen]

I was just about to...then it clicked.

[n4mwd]

Chris, the $20 was an estimate based on my manufacturing experience to make a simple throttle body without the extra servo controlled mechanism that Kawasaki uses on their UK model. Figure about a half pound of A356 castable aluminum and some miscellaneous parts. That's about $10 for material plus about $10 to put it together in a factory setting.

Carbs are more expensive to manufacture due to all the precision parts. Carbs have float mechanisms, all sorts of little passageways and such.

The electronics is a wash in that instead of making one circuit board, they make a different one.

There are other parts that are needed to make EFI work such as sensors and such so it will probably still be more than the carbed bike, but not more than $200 I would say.

[Jiggles]

If it was more cost effective to do efi, then they would do efi