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Old March 28th, 2023, 07:08 AM   #1
Shafer
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Unhappy Both my baby 07s are sick Hitting a 4-6k rev wall

Both my baby 07’s are sick – Hitting a 4-6k rev wall

Winter work:
07 Black and 07 Blue
*stock exhaust
-New Plugs -NGK 2086 CR8HSA
-Renewed HT leads – new wire cleaned connections
-Cleaned air filter and proper oil with Belray – Uni NU-2366
-Valve adjustment
-New oil – K&N401 / T6 10w-40
-Cleaned and split carbs, dip, ultrasonic, carb spray, compressed air, copper wire – so clean!
-Replaced carb o rings with a kit
-Replaced vacuum hoses with snap clips – Tygon hose used
-Needle shim - .60mm
-No rips in diagrams, slides move and fall nicely
-Float height set to factory and confirmed level at gasket level with tube method
-New fuel filter
-Rebuilt petcock, and tested vacuum and fuel flow
-Pilot screw at 2.5 turns out
-Idle set to 1300s




Testing so far-
-Fuel flow from both carb drains equal and strong flow
-Fresh gas
-Fresh gas with Tectron
-Carb spray for vac leaks – none that I can find
-Cleaned Blacks carb again, same process, but swapped old factory pilot screw o ring and fuel/vent rail o rings – no change
-Black - Swapped spark plug to NGK- 7669/CR8HIX – no change
-Black - Swapped back to old HT lead wire – no change
-Black removed shims from needles – no change, ran worse, put .60mm back in
-Black – warmed bike in driveway for 10-15min (I know) tried riding the day was in the 40s – 12 miles, I could not take the choke off or the bike would not rev high enough for shifts, terrible ride, no power, temperature gauge never came up to summer operating temp.
-Black – tried last year’s air filter, not clean or touched from last season, no change

Observations
-Crazy that both bikes have the same rev wall problem.
-Both bikes ran awesome last summer, first year with bikes, never had them in cold weather before
-If I cover one air filter hole with my hand the bike revs past the wall
-Roll on throttle slowly I get to 5-6k and I can hold it for a second then drops to 3-4k and holds, any more throttle it dies, jump off throttle returns to smooth idle
-Temp 30s, 40s, 50s, no change
-Headers and tail pipe temps match on both sides
I’m really upset about this, I worked so hard this winter restoring them to factory fresh and beyond and I can get past this issue, worst part is I’ve taken down the GFs bike, so added home life pressures, Haha

Any insight would help.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 07:14 AM   #2
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Today I'm trying :
-sync the carbs again with my Digi Syn
-swap old factory o ring in coasting enricher
-pilot screws adjustments

Today it's raining in Southern NH so no road testing
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Old March 28th, 2023, 07:38 AM   #3
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That could be only a fuel delivery problem, for example a clogged or incorrect main jet, or restricted fuel flow. Do you mean you replaced the fuel filters of both bikes? Is the stock filter still in at the carb fuel inlet? I think something is restricting fuel flow. That is, something from the petcock to the main jets.

On a side note, in my experience, needing needle shims indicates carbs that are not completely clean. I needed shims when I got my '05, but after Ducatiman refurbed them using the same jets and other stock parts, the shim was not necessary.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 07:55 AM   #4
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New fuel filters both bikes. Same model filter as last season, that worked perfectly.

Black was tested with straight hose without filter. - no change.

I've test fuel flow from the petcock and both bowl drains all are strong.

This issue really has me stumped. And even crazier both bikes are doing the same thing.

I shimmed the needles because I read it helps out for mid level power.

Blue had .60mm of shim last year and it was noticeable riding black that was not shimmed.

Idk maybe I don't need any shims because everything this so clean and fixed up?

I did try taking the shims as part of my troubleshooting and it felt like it ran better with them. I did not test ride or change mixture setting with them out but couldn't rev past the wall so I put them back in.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 08:00 AM   #5
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What are thoughts on this being lean condition?

I can rev with the choke on pass the wall, and can rev if I cover part of the air filter intake.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 08:22 AM   #6
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Sounds to me like the carbs are not as clean as you think they are !
definitely a carb problem if you can block the intake /air filter area and it's better.... I've said it before and I'll say it again these carbs are the hardest to clean of ALL Motorcycles ! it sounds like the carbs are dirty at the same place on both motorcycles.... think about it.... you cleaned them in the same manner
and the junk moved to the same spot in the carb and plugged up....
..... I suggest you clean the carbs again !
I realize you already did all that BUT .... it's not running right and it seems to be carburetors.. so..... do it again, but this time be extra sure those passages are clean.....
I think Ducattiman Uses Soda Blasting on the carbs that may well be the ONLY thing you didn't do.... and may well be the reason it isn't working
I feel for you.... all that work and their not right must be frustrating ! but keep after it ! you can do it !
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Old March 28th, 2023, 08:40 AM   #7
Shafer
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I'm not opposed to cleaning them again but I've run both carbs threw Berryman dips, pinesole soaks,carb spray with compressor air and a few time through a 400w ultrasonic.

Both bikes ran amazing last year and didn't have this problem. That's what I get for giving my babies the royal treatment lol.

Carb clean is definitely not off the table but is there anything else I could look at before I do another carb clean.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 08:48 AM   #8
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Bob I've read many of your posts and I value your opinion about the carbs, but it's just both bikes that were running fine are suffering from the same issue.

This is my first year with the bikes so first real cold riding season, I thought it could be I'm just to green to recognize what true operating temp is and I needed to just keep riding. After trying to take the choke off after 12 miles and it would fall on its face and really low temp gauge I don't know what to think.

One think I just thought of is I did the quick throttle mod for blue this winter black had it done last season without issue but I've never used the quick throttle mod in the cold weather.

Could the quick throttle mod causing the butterflies to open to rapidly for the cold air?
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Old March 28th, 2023, 09:49 AM   #9
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Ok there is this... when I got my carbs back from Ducattiman I had the same problem and I am almost positive that it is simply spark plugs !
but I got off the track, been working on my other bike and haven't got back to it.... as I don't have new spark plugs for it....
I pulled the spark plugs and put them on the trunk of the bike and mixed them up and I think I put an old one back in it.... it was running good taking rpm all the way to 9k with no problem with the choke on before the tear down, I did the valve shims and pulled the spark plugs and put them in the trunk...all 4 plugs got mixed up.
when I got the carbs back I put them back on and I had the same 4K wall you have been getting..... but I think mine is sparkplugs !
.... I do not see HOW your carbs could be dirty or how mine could be as I know Ducattiman worked his majic on them and got them back to stock for me. I trust his work if he says their clean their clean !
....so maybe, just maybe you have bad plugs Or maybe we both have a shorting coil or CDI failure or something....
that 4 K wall is not normal for me ...I've never experienced it on the Ninja before but I have on other twin cylinder bikes.... what tells me it is spark plug is the fact that I got over it once when testing and I got 10k from it and it sounded right ...but only once....
I am going to replace both sparkplugs and try it.... who knows that might be your problem as well.... other wise your guess is as good as mine it's a puzzle !!!!!
it might be possible that it's just the idle air screw adjustment as well both are different settings on my bike and maybe that is causing one cylinder to drop out and hit the wall at 4k RPM the carb sucks constantly through that adjustment screw so if it's too lean it will effect the mixture on the high end !
good luck !
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Old March 28th, 2023, 10:04 AM   #10
Shafer
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Thanks Bob. Get these plugs they are way better.

NGK- 7669/CR8HIX

I'm going to keep digging. There's got to be a link between both bikes acting the same way.

Might end up sending the carbs but I want to be sure before I do that
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Old March 28th, 2023, 10:10 AM   #11
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Thanks I'll do that !
Please let me know what you find !
I wish you luck !
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Old March 28th, 2023, 10:14 AM   #12
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carbs are fully installed INTO the runners? Airbox boots are sealing correctly, bth on airbox and carb sides?
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Old March 28th, 2023, 10:41 AM   #13
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Yes, I believe so. Head/intake and air box. Tested with starter fluid can't find a leak.


Silly question from someone that has never had the bike in cold weather yet....

How high can you rev in neutral if you just warm it up without riding without the choke?
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Old March 28th, 2023, 11:07 AM   #14
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I understand the question even with the bike stone cold you can get the bike to 10k RPM even without the choke on it will however cough spit and sputter and you have to work at it but it can be done.... but that is a horrable thing to do to a cold engine ! the ninja is a cold blooded beast at least that is my findings
it takes it 15 minutes to reach operating temp here at my place usually
you can tell it's getting warm when it finally starts taking throttle without sogging and having to have the choke on when it's warm it'll take throttle quickly and rev to the max with no hesitation but when it's cold it will sogg badly before it takes off .... obviously I do not wait 15 minutes before riding it so the first take off and stop light are less than perfect.... that is my experience
I am hoping alot of that will be cured by Gordons cleaning of the carbs....
but in his defiance the cleanest carbs on the planet are useless unless their set up correctly.... and you guys know me, I am apt to forget things ! or out and out do things wrong.... I think it's spark plugs and set up on mine....
I can't be certain because it "acts like dirty carburetors" but so do alot of things !.....
I remember my Honda 90 giving me fits one time thinking it was a dirty carburetor I cleaned it several times and it still did the screw up... I found out it was the points ! cleaned them up replaced the plug and it ran great !
Diagnosis is not always straight forward....usually it is but not always
so you have to entertain other possibilities !
....
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Old March 28th, 2023, 11:43 AM   #15
Shafer
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Yeah I agree never 10k cold. I always baby it until hot even in the summer.

I can get it to 6k pretty regularly now and holds well around 5k.

I think you can only test so much not under load.

I'm hoping for a test ride tomorrow, and I will report back.

ducatiman definitely considering it, just want to check things over before I send them. I would hate to attach your magic carbs to a bike that still had another problem.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 12:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
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What are thoughts on this being lean condition?

I can rev with the choke on pass the wall, and can rev if I cover part of the air filter intake.
As I said, it's a fuel delivery problem. You proved that when you blocked some intake air and it ran better.

You found that fuel is getting to the carbs properly, so all that's left is the carbs themselves. If it runs better with the shims than without, that's more proof that there isn't enough fuel in the air/fuel mixture. Same with running better with the enrichers open.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 01:13 PM   #17
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Sounds like everyone is thinking carbs.

I'm thinking carbs with the fuel delivery issue.

Could it be possible that I incorrectly adjusted the valves. It was my first time doing it.

Just a thought not sure if bad valve adjustment would cause this.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 01:15 PM   #18
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Right on Jim ! the only other possible other answer is plugs braking down at a certain RPM.... and that is very unlikely.... I know that, that's why I questioned the carbs on mine too ! but it could also be setup somewhere on mine !
....
I think he should clean his carbs again, this time take a small spring and straighten it out and go through each passage way as far as you can and then blow it out real good.... when I did my carbs the first time I found that the choke passage way was still dirty after 2 cleanings ...i found that with the spring wire..... it will go around a corner where probes will not and that is what you need.... I bent a tiny loop on the end so it wouldn't get stuck and that helped allot. I sprayed carb cleaner in that choke passage way before that and got cleaner out 3 holes... or at least I thought I did ...but after that cleaning it ran fairly well... still not right though it was very cold blooded and it shouldn't be that cold blooded ! LOL....
....
it's STILL snowing here ...crazy weather !
...this picture helped me alot ! the RED passageways MUST BE CLEAN !
Bob......
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File Type: jpg carb cleaning01 NINJA.jpg (107.3 KB, 1 views)
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Old March 28th, 2023, 01:45 PM   #19
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Oddball things can happen if the cam timing is wrong, but on an '07 you don't mess with the timing chain when you adjust the valves, so I doubt if that's your trouble.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 03:52 PM   #20
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carb vent or vent tube (if present) are not blocked or kinked in any way....?
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Old March 28th, 2023, 04:48 PM   #21
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No vent rail or vent tube blockage. Gas tank performance is the same open or closed.

I swapped back to my original kawi oring for the fuel rail, vent rail, and pilot screw hardware on Monday when I split and cleaned the carb for the 3 time ugh.

Today I changed the oring back to stock in the coaster. Went for a quick ride and no change. Had no power unless choke was on.

I'm cleaning the carbs like my life depended on it tonight and will swap back stock oring for the choke. Hoses were real tight to get off tonight still.

I guess I'm looking at inspecting the valves and timing next if this carb clean does not pay out.

Just weird both perfect running bikes last season have the same issue,

Thanks for everyones help and thoughts so far it's truly appreciated.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:11 PM   #22
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I'm not crazy....

I know I want to eventually do a jet kit (stage one-keep air box and my uni foam filter and stock exhaust)

I was going to purchase new needles as part of my troubleshooting and kawis are like 70 bucks and a dyno jet kit is 90ish.

The wild side of me says drop the kit in when you have the carbs out, responsible me says your bike is broke get it right first.

Is there something better kit wise you know of?
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:17 PM   #23
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earlier in the thread you mentioned/suggested using iridium plugs.....did you gap them? And at what exact setting? Did you increase the "as delivered" gap?
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I'm not crazy....

I know I want to eventually do a jet kit (stage one-keep air box and my uni foam filter and stock exhaust)

I was going to purchase new needles as part of my troubleshooting and kawis are like 70 bucks and a dyno jet kit is 90ish.

The wild side of me says drop the kit in when you have the carbs out, responsible me says your bike is broke get it right first.

Is there something better kit wise you know of?
Members here who have done dyno testing for track use have reported that best HP comes from running slightly leaner than stock. I wonder what comes in a Dynojet kit.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:23 PM   #25
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I went with 6.5 I think spec is 6-7 so went down the middle with these.

Black and blue both started the season with fresh CR8HSA at 7 black still is running that setup. Blue is running CR8HIX at 6.5.

I use a spark plug press with a feeler to gap.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:32 PM   #26
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I think triple Jim is spot on with a fuel delivery issue. (Whatever that turns about to be).

During today test ride it felt like I was driving a garden tractor. Moving the choke felt like turtle to rabbit and the throttle was as useful as the tractor peddle on turtle. You can push it all the way down but you don't get moving until you raise it up to rabbit.

Had the throttle cracked open the whole time and when I needed to go faster just increased the chock. I was just excited to be riding truth be told.

I did service the cct when I did the valve job but I was careful to not mess with the chain but I will check timing next when I review my valve job.

Cct service - ultrasonic all parts, all new springs, oring and grease per service manual
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:34 PM   #27
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you're running an iridium at .025" .......suggest increasing the gap. I run iridium in my ss800 Ducati....opened up to .035" .... or .889mm

Try it.
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:42 PM   #28
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I say forget the Jet Kit completely because unless you did a major bore job and replaced the exhaust system the jets will just mess you up ! the reason to change the jets is to get the plug color correct..... no other reason it really isn't a HOP-UP for the bike getting the burn correct IS a hop-up !
normially the Ninja's are jetted fairly lean so changing by 1/2 a jet size to 1 jet size is ok and will make it burn better but throwing in a jet kit to get it running better/more powerful is a fools game improve the flow YES that is a good hop-up but jetting rarely is.... of corse if you improve the flow you almost always have to re jet, but that's beside the point
.... I think what is going on is your dropping a cylinder at 4k RPM or around there .... check running the bike on a seperate fuel tank so you can see the coils and stuff under that big tank and see if your getting arching anywhere
colder damp weather can bring that out... perhaps you have hard water that has left deposits on the spark plug leads that cause arching... i've seen that before, a guy I knew pressure washed his bike and he could only get it to idle
after that... I came over to give him a hand and it was late evening and sure enough it would not go above idle, the sound changed but that was all ...I bent down and looked under his tank where the coils were and saw a light show when he tried to give it throttle.... he popped the tank off and spreyed the leads and connectors with WD40 and then wiped it all off and that was all it took at first it balked at the idea but then it farted and took off !
....
both bikes doing the same thing points to something you did wrong, but what is the question.... did you have to reset the floats ? did you take out the jet needles or change the clip position ? or shim them perhaps
Something you did caused this so search your memory and question everything you did.... is anything new in the system ? new spark plugs ?
maybe that is the culprit ! one failing on each bike would not surprise me at all in my youth I saw 4 out of 5 sparkplugs be bad right out of the box
I would test them by laying then on the head and hitting the starter and they would arch internally not on the tip I went through a period of about 5 to 6 years where buying a good spark plug was a gamble !!! maybe you got a bunch of bad ones ?..
.....
look for a loose vacuum hose before you do anything else because that could/would do it !!!!!
....
good luck
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Old March 28th, 2023, 05:46 PM   #29
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a follow-up on my iridium plug comment......a link to ducati.ms referencing same. The author/member "shazaam" is dead on.

https://www.ducati.ms/threads/platin...rkplugs.70575/

"Platinum or iridium plugs will give you worse performance than a conventional plug unless you use a larger gap than is recommended for the steel electrode plug equivalent."
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Old March 28th, 2023, 07:21 PM   #30
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Ummm.... if you messed with the valves that means you did mess with the timing chain.... (I know the older versions you don't have to take the cam out on mine you do) but if the cam chain was slack or the crank turned backwards at any time in doing that there is a chance it is one tooth off
and that is what I first thought with mine i pulled the valve cover again just to double check and the marks were right on.... however I watched a youtube video where a guy walked you through each step on my bike and his timing marks differ from mine.... I have yet to figure that out ! it is quite possable I am one tooth off on the intake cam as I did Not take a picture before I took it apart..... when I double checked the cam timing I was positive the timing marks were spot on and the crank was where it should be and hadn't moved
.... I did not remove the thick rubber gasket on the head I saw no need, but maybe there is. as it might be able to line up on top of the gasket and be off I don't know.... if so that is really Picky timing !!!!
I really hope you find it as it will point the way to Mine ! LOL
....
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Old March 29th, 2023, 07:23 AM   #31
Shafer
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you're running an iridium at .025" .......suggest increasing the gap. I run iridium in my ss800 Ducati....opened up to .035" .... or .889mm

Try it.
Ducatiman what do you think a good starting point would be for gap on the ninja?

That's a great link I didn't know any of that. Thanks for the share.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 07:27 AM   #32
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I say forget the Jet Kit completely because unless you did a major bore job and replaced the exhaust system the jets will just mess you up ! the reason to change the jets is to get the plug color correct..... no other reason it really isn't a HOP-UP for the bike getting the burn correct IS a hop-up !
normially the Ninja's are jetted fairly lean so changing by 1/2 a jet size to 1 jet size is ok and will make it burn better but throwing in a jet kit to get it running better/more powerful is a fools game improve the flow YES that is a good hop-up but jetting rarely is.... of corse if you improve the flow you almost always have to re jet, but that's beside the point
.... I think what is going on is your dropping a cylinder at 4k RPM or around there .... check running the bike on a seperate fuel tank so you can see the coils and stuff under that big tank and see if your getting arching anywhere
colder damp weather can bring that out... perhaps you have hard water that has left deposits on the spark plug leads that cause arching... i've seen that before, a guy I knew pressure washed his bike and he could only get it to idle
after that... I came over to give him a hand and it was late evening and sure enough it would not go above idle, the sound changed but that was all ...I bent down and looked under his tank where the coils were and saw a light show when he tried to give it throttle.... he popped the tank off and spreyed the leads and connectors with WD40 and then wiped it all off and that was all it took at first it balked at the idea but then it farted and took off !
....
both bikes doing the same thing points to something you did wrong, but what is the question.... did you have to reset the floats ? did you take out the jet needles or change the clip position ? or shim them perhaps
Something you did caused this so search your memory and question everything you did.... is anything new in the system ? new spark plugs ?
maybe that is the culprit ! one failing on each bike would not surprise me at all in my youth I saw 4 out of 5 sparkplugs be bad right out of the box
I would test them by laying then on the head and hitting the starter and they would arch internally not on the tip I went through a period of about 5 to 6 years where buying a good spark plug was a gamble !!! maybe you got a bunch of bad ones ?..
.....
look for a loose vacuum hose before you do anything else because that could/would do it !!!!!
....
good luck
Bob.....

I agree Bob it's totally something I changed, working hard to put my finger on it trust me and will share results as they come.

If my carb cleaning I'm working on shows no improvement I'll head to the valves and timing. I doubt I messed up both bikes with skipping a cc tooth, but you never know and I'm already in the top end mise well check timing.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 07:28 AM   #33
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Members here who have done dyno testing for track use have reported that best HP comes from running slightly leaner than stock. I wonder what comes in a Dynojet kit.
I'm going to side bar that whole thing until after the bikes are running correct.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 07:33 AM   #34
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Today I'm working on carb cleaning, I'll give a update when I've got it back together.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 08:52 AM   #35
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So I was wiring my jets today and I noticed what appears to be the hole made of plastic I thought it was all metal.

Am I right about the hole being plastic of some kind?

What are the factory parts?

In mine I have:

Needle N161 or N16I can't tell

Pj: 38
Mj: 105
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Old March 29th, 2023, 09:06 AM   #36
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your jetting is, in fact, stock provided by factory..... N16I is correct needle number....

precisely where are you seeing a "plastic hole" ?

I'd start with .032"...leading to.035" or .036". Experiment a bit.

Poster named Shazaam (on the Duc forum) can be fuly trusted for correct, pertinent info.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 09:11 AM   #37
Shafer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
your jetting is, in fact, stock provided by factory..... N16I is correct needle number....

precisely where are you seeing a "plastic hole" ?

I'd start with .032"...leading to.035" or .036". Experiment a bit.

Poster named Shazaam (on the Duc forum) can be fuly trusted for correct, pertinent info.
you answering like that leads me to think I'm huffing to much cleaner.

I just looked again under natural light and they are definitely metal.

Thanks for the gap info I'll try those out and report back.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 12:23 PM   #38
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I'm going to side bar that whole thing until after the bikes are running correct.
that is prudent ! get them running right first before you do any changes !
and only do one thing at a time....
I have a tendency to do several things at once and man that can be a real pain in the butt getting it right again !
....
Good luck !
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Old March 29th, 2023, 12:25 PM   #39
Shafer
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that is prudent ! get them running right first before you do any changes !
and only do one thing at a time....
I have a tendency to do several things at once and man that can be a real pain in the butt getting it right again !
....
Good luck !
Bob...
Thanks I'll let you know what I find out.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 12:28 PM   #40
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When I assembled the carb should I put back the .60mm of shims?

Triple Jim you said they were not needed with a properly running carb. Everyone here speaks of washers under the needles as the magic pill to solve the lean spot.

Thoughts?
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