August 31st, 2014, 06:04 AM | #1 | ||||
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - May '15
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Subjective 250 vs 300 thread to help potential buyers
We've seen many comparisons already. Lots of data. Tons of numbers. But let's list bullet points for some "subjective" differences to help a potential buyer decide. No HP numbers, no MPG numbers, no torque numbers. Just difference you noticed while riding.
I'll update this post as I log on more mileage on the 300, along with including other members' comparisons. I'll start (POV of '09 250R vs '13 300 ABS): Quote:
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Quote:
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Last futzed with by cadd; September 4th, 2014 at 04:44 PM. |
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August 31st, 2014, 06:20 AM | #2 |
The A Team
Name: Aufitt
Location: Western Australia
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): Z50, CB125, RZ500, MC22, R3. Posts: 394
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Is the 300's gearbox as bad as the 250?
that almighty bang that goes through the bike on clutchless upshifts, and occasionally jumping out of 5th? |
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August 31st, 2014, 07:17 AM | #3 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Nick
Location: TN
Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250r Posts: 43
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Regarding Engine braking, does anyone know if the 300 utilizes DFCO (deceleration fuel cutoff?)
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August 31st, 2014, 07:30 AM | #4 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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August 31st, 2014, 08:03 AM | #5 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Nick
Location: TN
Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250r Posts: 43
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Quote:
DFCO would be a big selling point for me, I don't engine brake with carbs |
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August 31st, 2014, 09:41 AM | #6 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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I use clutch less up shifts from 2nd to 6th. For me, it's smoother and quicker than using the clutch. I've never experienced jumping out of any gears on the 250. On my short 40 mile ride with the 300, the gearbox feels the same as the 250.
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August 31st, 2014, 10:06 AM | #7 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
I always dip the clutch, I've seen a couple of these in my time from 'racing shifts' http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/74411/ |
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August 31st, 2014, 10:08 AM | #8 |
ninjette.org dude
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My thoughts are in my 300 review here.
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August 31st, 2014, 10:24 AM | #9 |
Inline 4!!!
Name: Danny
Location: MA
Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2008 CBR600rr, 1987 KLR 250 Posts: A lot.
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You can always refer back to the chart I made, I'll link it here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194521
Nice job with your review though, I like how you tried to find things good about the 250, instead of just saying "300 is an overall improvement over the 250, aside from brakes" You actually put in other things people don't often think about such as the mirrors, head light and kick stand... now are those gonna make a break a deal? Probably not, but it's still good to list them. I've never ridden a 300, and you have so your opinions obviously would be more factual than mine, but it doesn't make much sense to me that the 250's throttle would be more direct than the 300's.. I mean fuel injection should be more direct than carbs... someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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August 31st, 2014, 11:10 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Danny. It's a case of analog vs digital.
Carbs are directly connected by the throttle cable. The butterflies control the airflow, the airflow creates vacuum. The vacuum sucks in fuel. The jets control the amount of fuel flow. Therefore, there's direct control of the engine through the throttle hand. Now look at efi. It's a digital control system. The throttle cable moves the butterflies. There is a sensor that reads how far the butterflies have been twisted. Then based on a whole series of maps and and other readings fr vacuum sensors and temp sensors and engine speed sensors, the injectors fire a predetermined amount of fuel to be mixed with the 'known' quantity of air coming in past the butterflies. However. Every sensor has a deadzone. Every sensor has a certain level of error and sensitivity. Every sensor also has a certain amount of feedback that creates its own error in the system. Additionally, because of the deadzone I mentioned, every sensor will have some threshold were it changes from reading 'off' to 'on' or vise versa. Basically, digital is on or off. You can smooth it out through an entire control system, but at some point in the range of inputs, it will abruptly change from on to off or off to on. Theres an entire flavor of engineering based on making digit control systems. The most simple being things like windshield wipers and locks and stuff like that. Fuel injection is not a simple thing. Compare that to carbs. It's a mechanical control system. It's less precise, but all analog. It's simpler, and all self controlled by the air flowing through the carb. Everything else works on vacuum, which is controlled physics and the amount of air flowing past the butterflies. |
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August 31st, 2014, 11:47 AM | #11 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Quote:
Here's a vid of trying it out on the 250 when I first got it. No clutch up shift. |
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August 31st, 2014, 11:49 AM | #12 |
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I mean... you don't HAVE to, but it's likely easier on the vehicle for the general masses. I find sport bikes easy to upshift clutchlessly, but cars very hard. I've only nailed it a few times in my Scion, but I also don't try often because it's my DD and I'd be very inconvenienced by it being down from something silly when I murdered a terrible upshift.
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August 31st, 2014, 07:09 PM | #13 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
You mustn't be "afraid" about engine-braking with carbs - it's working well. |
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August 31st, 2014, 07:11 PM | #14 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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August 31st, 2014, 07:53 PM | #15 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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August 31st, 2014, 07:57 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
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No, I don't notice any play in the side stand. It is mounted a little differently on the 300 which gives a little more ground clearance, but it doesn't seem weaker or more wobbly on mine.
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August 31st, 2014, 08:23 PM | #17 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Your stand moves up if you put your toes under it and lift up like this?
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August 31st, 2014, 08:53 PM | #18 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Rebecca
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I like how the kickstand on the 300 does that. I like that I can feel it touching the ground much earlier before the weight settles all the way down. Always felt like I was just letting the bike drop down on the 250 kickstand and it made me feel uneasy.
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August 31st, 2014, 09:32 PM | #19 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Lol at ^
I guess I'm used to the solid "thump" of the 250 stand. First time I put the 300 on the stand, and it sinked down 1/2", my heart skipped a best! I thought I must have not fully deployed the stand! So this is normal, right? |
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August 31st, 2014, 09:55 PM | #20 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Anyone have both bikes and want to add their bullet points about all the little details that are different? If so, I'll add it to the OP (giving you credit).
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August 31st, 2014, 10:15 PM | #21 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Rebecca
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You don't have to quote me into the OP lol.
- I didn't notice the difference in headlights that you mentioned. - EFI is the ****. Basically my main reason for getting the 300; everything else is just a bonus. - Digital display that has a clock is great. However, my screen cracked at some point without an obvious reason. Not sure if it's an actual defect or if there were other factors that caused it. - Seat height is higher, but I think the seat itself is a bit narrower too so it kinda negates the additional height. - Passing light trigger is kinda cool (unless your high beams don't work like mine lol) - The grab handles under the passenger seat are great for moving the bike around or picking it up. I hated that I could never figure out a good place to grab the new-gen. - Stock rear fender is less atrocious than the new-gen's. - Comes with a rear hugger. |
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September 1st, 2014, 02:14 AM | #22 |
Jersey Devil
Name: Daks
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): '06 Ninja 250 Posts: 469
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idk why anyone complains about the "sinking" side stand. On the old ninjettes it feels like it's halfway over by the time it sits.
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September 1st, 2014, 05:21 AM | #23 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic) Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
BTW (and this is counter intuitive) the dogs get rounded on the gear you are coming out of because the difference above is all taken by the corner of the dog at the last stage of disengagement. You cant engage at all until everything is sync'd so obvoiusly the shift "feels" smooth |
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September 1st, 2014, 05:52 AM | #24 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Nick
Location: TN
Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250r Posts: 43
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Quote:
I'm not against engine braking on carbs, but If it's not going to save me fuel, I'd rather just stick to using the brakes... (I don't ride hard enough to worry about brake fade, etc.) |
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September 1st, 2014, 06:03 AM | #25 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
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Quote:
Not to hijack a great thread or disagree with what you are saying, but if you rev match there will be no more damage than when using the clutch. Bad shifting with the clutch is just as damaging. The gears on a motorcycle are cut straight (that is why you hear a whine from the gear box when riding) while a car has angle cut gears (car gear boxes are nearly silent) so they receive much more "load" when not shifted at a matching rpm. Shifting a bike properly (lowering the rpm slightly during clutcless upshifts) will not damage the gears. The same for down shifting, if you raise the rpm the proper amount it will not cause and additional wear. The problem is that most people cannot consistently match engine speed while braking or any number of situations on the street. When clutchless shifting is done incorrectly then YES the transmission has to absorb all/any extra power/speed which was not matched. The engagement dogs on the gears drag and get worn faster. So done correctly (takes lots of practice to get it right everytime) there is no damage done incorrectly (how most people do it) there will be damage over time. |
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September 1st, 2014, 06:54 AM | #26 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
And please I don't want to talk against any Japanese company, but in cars and also motorcycles the news come from Germany, or at least the most important. |
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September 1st, 2014, 09:36 AM | #27 |
Inline 4!!!
Name: Danny
Location: MA
Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2008 CBR600rr, 1987 KLR 250 Posts: A lot.
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What kind of Scion do you drive? I love Scions.
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September 1st, 2014, 11:50 AM | #28 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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A totally stock '06 tC with a Yakima roof rack to carry my bicycles. Just turned 90k on the odometer. I love it. I wish the gearing was a little taller in 5th gear, but overall it's a great little car. Handles decent for the weight. Accelerates enough to get out of it's own way but not bad on gas. The rear seats fold down and the hatch lets me carry lots of junk. Steering feels pretty good. Shifter throw is a little long. It's a fun car and does well as a comfortable and practical DD. I'm happy.
I want an FRS after college, but I may have to settle for the practicality of a newer tC with suspension/chassis stiffening mods or a Civic Si sedan. I think those all sound like good options. |
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September 1st, 2014, 02:52 PM | #29 | |
Inline 4!!!
Name: Danny
Location: MA
Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2008 CBR600rr, 1987 KLR 250 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I believe the Tc is what essentially replaced the celica, just a different name and upgraded body style.
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September 1st, 2014, 04:29 PM | #30 |
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The '05-'06 tC is the same platform as the Celica, but with the 2.4L motor out of the Camry. It also weighs in a good bit more than your GTS model, something like 2800-2900 lbs I think? The '07+ models are the same platform as the Corolla.
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September 1st, 2014, 05:45 PM | #31 | |
Inline 4!!!
Name: Danny
Location: MA
Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2008 CBR600rr, 1987 KLR 250 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
The Fr-s is really a beautiful looking car, plus it's RWD pushes 200hp and handles like a dream. Definitely glad to see it on the streets.
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September 1st, 2014, 06:31 PM | #32 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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The 300 crashes really well
So does the 250
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September 1st, 2014, 06:46 PM | #33 |
Inline 4!!!
Name: Danny
Location: MA
Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2008 CBR600rr, 1987 KLR 250 Posts: A lot.
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lol what does that even mean?
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September 1st, 2014, 07:11 PM | #34 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Jiggles is the resident pov video expert for spectacular crashes of both bikes
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September 1st, 2014, 07:24 PM | #35 |
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It means the expensive parts like the frame are nicely protected by fairings. The most likely things to get damaged are levers/mirrors/plastics/handlebars/footpegs, not engine case/twisted frame/etc. Within reason. They slide well and take small drops well.
I slid on the track at ~50 and I have to replace a fairing bracket, rearset, one bar, and one lever. The engine doesn't have a single scrape on it, the forks are fine, and so is the frame. Crashes like a tank. |
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September 3rd, 2014, 09:08 AM | #36 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Edited OP. 300 runs hotter than 250.
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September 3rd, 2014, 09:10 AM | #37 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Quote:
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September 3rd, 2014, 09:40 AM | #38 |
King Hamfist
Name: Cameron
Location: NorCal East Bay
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Haha, all that heavy breathing after almost ass packing everyone you KNOW he needed to change his pants.
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September 4th, 2014, 11:49 AM | #39 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Also from my pov, it becomes really transparent during rev matching downshifts, particularly from 2nd to 1st at 10mph when coming to a stop at a red light. While in 2nd gear, throttle is completely closed. When I blip to downshift into first, the ECU isn't quick enough to react in time (we're talking split seconds here). And the bike doesn't blip at all! I found the work around to be being more aggressive with the throttle when blipping to downshift, especially from 2nd to 1st. Anyone else experience this coming from a carb bike to EFI? This is the first EFI bike I've ever owned. My previous bikes were mid to late 90s bikes with carbs. |
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September 4th, 2014, 02:30 PM | #40 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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If you get a Power Commander or have someone mess with the ecu, you can have some of that adjusted and make the throttle more responsive to small inputs. Or you could just cheat and get a bigger throte tube to pull more cable and give it more throttle input for the same amount of wrist twist while blipping.
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