ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > General > Riding Skills

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 7th, 2019, 09:18 AM   #201
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
I find it hard to believe, with all the racers and track riders on this forum, that no one had anything to say about my riding. I see a few things that I will address in another post but I was really hoping for some positive and negative feedback from those that know more than I do about riding.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote




Old August 7th, 2019, 01:24 PM   #202
Koala
ninjette.org sage
 
Koala's Avatar
 
Name: Koala
Location: Ohio
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2017 Ninja 300 Winter Test Edition

Posts: 589
MOTM - May '18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I find it hard to believe, with all the racers and track riders on this forum, that no one had anything to say about my riding. I see a few things that I will address in another post but I was really hoping for some positive and negative feedback from those that know more than I do about riding.
seems like it's crickets for the both of us. Lots of views, but little to no commentary. I enjoyed talking to you about your issues and breakthroughs this weekend, but I don't have the skill and the knowledge to critique you
__________________________________________________
Unregistered now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

"To ensure you're giving your very best, blind yourself of all negativity, relax your mind, put inhibition to rest and drive hard toward your goals like it's the last thing on earth." - csmith12
Koala is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 7th, 2019, 07:25 PM   #203
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
On-board video is not as helpful as from rider ahead or following you.

Ant's been making great progress since beginning of this thread. Really only thing needed is lots more track time. Every 100-hrs on track is good time for review and check-in. I send all videos in to my coaches and don't hear back that often unless there's something obvious that needs correcting. Otherwise, it's getting in the hours that's important.

One thing you can work on is hitting apexes more precisely; some of them are off by 4-5 feet. And making your lines consistent lap after lap. Maybe slow down bit if needed.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 10th, 2019 at 01:47 AM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 8th, 2019, 04:16 PM   #204
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
sounds like, and i could be wrong, its like your running a gear to high.
seams the motor should wind up a lot faster on corner exit , its all about feet per second, as you exit your last turn its a drag race to the next.
i do admit i watched ony a few laps.
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 9th, 2019, 03:00 PM   #205
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrshooter View Post
sounds like, and i could be wrong, its like your running a gear to high.
seams the motor should wind up a lot faster on corner exit , its all about feet per second, as you exit your last turn its a drag race to the next.
i do admit i watched ony a few laps.
I have a big V-twin Ducati so it will rev a little slower than the I-4 bikes as 10,000 RPM is all I get. I was not opening the throttle to 100% after the corner so I would not have to upshift before the next turn. I was working on being smooth with my throttle roll on and working on an issue I had been experiencing while leaned over. I had just figured out the issue and was trying to run some smooth laps. I will work on hitting the apexes tighter as you suggested and I am going to try to run the entire track in 4th gear so I can stay on the power longer and carry more speed.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 10th, 2019, 01:45 AM   #206
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Riding big bike like Ninja 250!!! Awesome!!!
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 13th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #207
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
The quick and the raw from my review of the vid.

Turn rate is pretty good but still a bit too slow to up the entry speed much more with same confidence
Move your hands/fingers more often to keep good blood flow and looseness on the bars
There is a hesitation when your bikes goes from full lean from side to side (most likely your body position catching up to the bike vs being ahead of the bike... aka, "hip flick") You can literally see the bars wiggle and the chassis become unstable, smooth out your bp movements cause its kinda choppy
Hit the hard apex of turn 3 more often

Overall nice job hitting the lines
So happy to see that rider's lines in front of you don't become yours
Keep doing what your doing to improve, this is much better riding vs the last time we talked. Maybe you just like this track more or are more comfortable with the layout/flow.

Well done sir, keep having fun!
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 15th, 2019, 01:34 PM   #208
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
The quick and the raw from my review of the vid.

Turn rate is pretty good but still a bit too slow to up the entry speed much more with same confidence
Move your hands/fingers more often to keep good blood flow and looseness on the bars
There is a hesitation when your bikes goes from full lean from side to side (most likely your body position catching up to the bike vs being ahead of the bike... aka, "hip flick") You can literally see the bars wiggle and the chassis become unstable, smooth out your bp movements cause its kinda choppy
Hit the hard apex of turn 3 more often

Overall nice job hitting the lines
So happy to see that rider's lines in front of you don't become yours
Keep doing what your doing to improve, this is much better riding vs the last time we talked. Maybe you just like this track more or are more comfortable with the layout/flow.

Well done sir, keep having fun!

Chris,
Thank you for taking the time to review my video, I know how busy you are right now. I will take all your advice to heart and continue to apply it to the track.

PS: I am only more comfortable with Palmer because it is the only track life seems to allow me to ride!
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 23rd, 2019, 08:11 PM   #209
MichaelDanger
rental 250s sustain me
 
Name: Michael
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Aug 2019

Motorcycle(s): “Little Red Bull” Daytona 675

Posts: 3
+1 for minibikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky nrk View Post
A lot of people recommend dirt riding as that takes the traction to a very low state. You will slide the front and you will side the rear on dirt. I have done a small amount of dirt riding for this purpose and find that there are things to be learned for sure from it. I think I would do more dirt riding if I had a place to do it more often but what I really preferred was kart tracking a mini sumo. An XR100 on BT45s on a kart track is a really decent analog to the big track. The little bike flexes and squirms, the front and rear tires slide, and you can feel all of it at 35-45 mpg instead of 90. Because the little suckers have NO power you have to work on really maintaining corner speed to go fast and the brakes are so HORRIBLE you have to manage your entry to get it right. And because they weigh nothing, each movement of your body, each input is magnified. I LOVE kart track work on a mini sumo for inexpensive craft training work.
Definitely agree. I really want to learn so dirt/ asphalt skills but also struggle to find a play venue. Living in the city, dwelling property-less in an urban apartment, dirt track searches find mostly motocross tracks. Would love to find a dirt parking lot free of parkers to do some traction experiments with a grom. Attempts have been socially disenfrancising.. open to hot tips if yall have found any undiscovered playgrounds.
For now i have found a local kart track that is accepting of minibikes. It is a start, but I’m not to the broken traction threshold yet. Karters threaten my continuing participation when I suggest “dirty” corners.
MichaelDanger is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 24th, 2019, 07:07 AM   #210
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
@MichaelDanger, I also would love to ride a small cc bike on a Kart track. I have not found a track local to me that has a policy of allowing bike to participate. I would buy an XR or another KX80 in a minute if I had such a place to practice. I did have a company that would allow me to ride on their fence enclosed lot for a summer. That was for a single year then they decided the risk of liability was too great. I did a lot of dirt bike riding on many track in my youth but have not in several years. I have an invitation to race in a Trail type MX race this fall while I am in the Philippines but am having reservations because I dont like the idea of major injury while on vacation. What I should and probly will do is to run the race at 65/70% pace to be as safe as possible and just accept the results.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 24th, 2019, 04:28 PM   #211
MichaelDanger
rental 250s sustain me
 
Name: Michael
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Aug 2019

Motorcycle(s): “Little Red Bull” Daytona 675

Posts: 3
Seen it trackday photos all the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
When you bike is set up well, it takes 0% bar pressure + good throttle control to hold your line. To stop turning, simply stop pushing the bar to once your line is set.
Commonly seen in trackday photos where the ride has their knee on the deck, looking at the camera, one hand on the bar, giving a thumbs up to the photographer.

Granted there are few times during a lap we are at steady state like this but you point out an important fact. We often perceive things as more work than they really are.

Awesome thread for this newcomer...
MichaelDanger is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 26th, 2019, 02:08 PM   #212
Misti
ninjette.org sage
 
Misti's Avatar
 
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010

Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard

Posts: 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
Sorry for the dead video, The link is correct but you can search Youtube for "Palmer 8 5 Final" or try this linky copied directly from their page
https://youtu.be/eyCbFbw4m1Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I find it hard to believe, with all the racers and track riders on this forum, that no one had anything to say about my riding. I see a few things that I will address in another post but I was really hoping for some positive and negative feedback from those that know more than I do about riding.
OK I took a look at some of your laps and have a few questions for you regarding your riding. One, when you get on the gas in the corners, once you crack it on are you rolling it on "smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn" or are there places where you are holding the throttle steady and not rolling on?

Are you hitting apexes consistently and accurately or are there places (right turns) where you are inconsistent and far from the apex?

Let's start there
__________________________________________________
"Leap and the net will appear!"
superbikeschool.com
www.motomom.ca
Misti is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 28th, 2019, 01:31 PM   #213
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
OK I took a look at some of your laps and have a few questions for you regarding your riding. One, when you get on the gas in the corners, once you crack it on are you rolling it on "smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn" or are there places where you are holding the throttle steady and not rolling on?

Are you hitting apexes consistently and accurately or are there places (right turns) where you are inconsistent and far from the apex?

Let's start there
@Misti,
As always thank you for taking the time to review my video. Before I answer all your questions I must revamp what had happened on this day. All weekend I was experiencing an issue with the bike not wanting to turn in as much as I wanted. We both know that the bike is usually not to blame at my level since it is so much more capable than I. Just before this video was shot, I found that the problem was caused by me putting too much pressure on the bars as I was using them to hold on rather than my leg and lower body. Over the past few seasons I have not been able to ride much more than my 2 two day track trips and late last year my knees were bothering me so I moved my foot pegs back and down 1 space each direction < + v. The new location for the rearsets helped with my knees but had the adverse effect of me placing more weight on my hands. The extra weight on my hands did not matter last season as it was cold and wet so the pace was slower. Once we got out there this season on a hot dry track, the issue I described began to show its head and caused some scary moments. I had a really scary (to me) front wheel slide in turn 5 and a few times I ran really wide late in the turn. Once I figured this out most of the final track day had passed and the video is of my last session of the last day. I had just figured out the issue the prior session and was just getting used to the new "CONTROL" I had regained with the changes.

Now onto your questions,
I was 100% intentionally stopping my roll on once the bike was (Nearly) vertical so I could concentrate on corner entry and keeping my weight off of the bars. I know this is not what you are asking about but there have been others who commented on this earlier. I am still having a little trouble with both getting on the gas early enough and consistently rolling on thru the remainder of the turn. Getting on the gas earlier was improving the more I rode the track but the issue I had with not being able to get to the lean angle I expected was also keeping me from continuing to roll on thru the remainder of the turn.

My lack of riding time over the last few years coupled with the issue of too much body weight/input into the bars has really held me back. I feel if I had another track day, you would see significant improvement as I could continue to get comfortable with the bike turning as it should which would allow me to set my line earlier and get on the gas earlier while keeping the roll on thru the turn. I have been practicing this on the street--at much safer speeds--as much as possible since I found this issue.

As for your final question about hitting the apex more often, As my confidence grows from the newly regained control after solving my issue, this too will improve significantly. Should you have time, look at the lines in my older videos posted in this thread (same track Palmer) and you will see how much better they have gotten as I regained confidence in the front end grip. Now with confidence in the front, better lines and the return of actual control of the bike, I think next trip will be better than any so far. I know what to do just need to apply it and figure out the next issue.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 29th, 2019, 05:56 AM   #214
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Just a quick check in since I have so little time to be on this wonderful forum now a days. I have been working on the issues all you skilled track riders and teachers have pointed out so gracefully. I may not have much time to attend all the track days as I would like but I am trying to formulate a plan to increase the learning time each chance I get to ride on the street. Some of you know me personally so for the rest of you, I assure you that my street riding is all done at 60% or less of what I would do on the track. Most of my street riding is done on back woods farm type roads with minimal traffic and safety is my primary concern. I am NOT out there riding like a maniac risking my life nor my license so please remember this when reading what I am planning below. We are all aware that you can drag your knee on the ground at 30 mph in a parking lot and dont have to pretend you are taking the corkscrew at Laguna Seca raceway. All I am saying is that what I propose attempting below will be done safely away from other road users and mostly in the back corner of an empty parking lot.

Since I have 2 similar bikes (same geometry but different tires) I tend to leave the 999 in race trim and run the 916 on the street. The bikes have been set up as similar as possible even to the point of having the same rearsets at the same height/position and I measured the bars to assure they have the same angle and position. Ride height, rake, trail, suspension and even seat position is as close as possible to keep them as similar as possible for learning purposes. I do have a 190 Dunlop on the rear of the 999 VS the 180 Pirelli on the 916 but this will be changed shortly.

I am quickly running out of time so I will list my first "plan" and ask that you give me your thoughts and then I will adjust if necessary and add further "training" stratagies later.

#1: I have been trying to ride more in the rain. Using the limited traction provided by the wet pavement to allow me to safely find the limits of traction. I have been doing this solely on acceleration after a turn. Mostly I just go to my favorite newly paved parking lot and do a double apex around an "island" and as I lift the bike upright I practice my roll on faster and faster until I get some wheel spin. Then I try to get better acceleration with less spin. Doing this in the rain makes throttle control every important and I think will teach me more than running thru twisties at 70% speed on dry pavement.

PLEASE DISCUSS
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old August 31st, 2019, 10:56 PM   #215
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
This is cause-and-effect issue and you're looking at working on side-effects, not actual problem. It won't relate and I suggest backing up and looking at earlier factors that's actual cause of your exit issues.

First, why wet parking-lot practice won't transfer to dry racetrack. There's HUGE difference between bike's behavior at 45mph in wet lot versus 125mph on dry track. At low wet speeds, it will be very easy to break traction. The muscle-memory you develop as far as amount of throttle-twisting and correction amounts in steering and body-english will be completely different than what's required on track at higher speed.

Other thing is lean-angle. Due to low-speeds and low-traction, you'll be leaned over 15-20 degrees max in wet lot when breaking rear traction. On track, it'll be more like 50-55 degrees. Your finely calibrated sensors, inner ears, will know. If you tune them for 15-20 degrees in wet lot, they'll be completely unfamiliar with 50-55 degrees at higher speeds (ears also detects acceleration).

Which leads us back to real cause of your issues, corner-setup and entry. As you go faster into corner by having higher top-speed on previous straight and braking later, you are still covering same exact same distances through corner, from turn-in to apex to exit, but in less time. What does that mean?

Everything that happens after turn-in must occur faster! So tip-in speed from full-upright to full-lean must happen faster in order to carve same line at faster speed. And because you're going faster around curve, you have to lean more! You have to go from full-upright to leaning more in less time than previously at lower speed. That's why you are going wide and missing your apexes. The faster you go while not leaning over faster and farther, means you'll miss apexes by more and more.

This missing apexes and going wide is why you can't get on throttle sooner and 100% by exit of corner. You feel yourself being pushed off-course with not enough room to give it more throttle. So I recommend following:

- get more track-time
- practice getting from full-upright to full-lean faster
, push harder and faster on inside bar
- practice leaning over more, you've still got another 15-20 degrees before you're at limit


The types of improvements you're after takes lots of repetition with incremental progress. Like any other sporting skill such as basketball, tennis, archery, golf, etc., it requires tonnes of practice. People don't realize that it took DECADES of practice for Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or even Valentino Rossi to reach their skill levels. DECADES of practice, almost every single day!

So I get as much practice as possible. It takes 100-laps to make X-improvement and 200-laps to get Y-improvement. There's no shortcuts. I get in 45-50 days at track each year along with most of my racing colleagues. I chopped off 20s/lap at Thunderhill my 1st year, then 15s/lap 2nd year, 7s/lap this year. And I'm still 7s/lap off from 250 record. I may chop off 3s next year, 2s year after, and 1s year after that if I keep on going 45-50 days/year. In 5-years I may have shot at lap-record, maybe. Those who spent less time at track have made lesser improvements. I'm now 5s faster than guy that beat me in my 1st race (he only gets in 20 day@track/year). It's just matter of putting in required time and laps.

Good help is watching video "Winning" about Paul Newman! Also extremely helpful to watch others on similar bikes and slightly faster at same tracks you're visting. Note where they brake, turn-in, apex, get on throttle, etc. Get a feel for the timing, the tip-in speed, throttle-control, etc. I find it especially helpful to watch videos of guys I'm racing against!

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 1st, 2019 at 12:26 AM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2019, 07:23 AM   #216
Topaz
ninjette.org member
 
Topaz's Avatar
 
Name: Topaz
Location: South Florida
Join Date: Mar 2017

Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 / Suzuki DR-Z 400 SM

Posts: 214
^^ Interesting post. Not very promising for those who don't have decades of riding ahead of us, but interesting anyways.

I guess it depends too on how much risk one's willing to take on each corner. How often do you lay your bike down, @DannoXYZ?

I have fun practicing on the parking lot as well, even if not to useful on the track.
Topaz is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2019, 08:11 AM   #217
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
This is cause-and-effect issue and you're looking at working on side-effects, not actual problem. It won't relate and I suggest backing up and looking at earlier factors that's actual cause of your exit issues.

First, why wet parking-lot practice won't transfer to dry racetrack. There's HUGE difference between bike's behavior at 45mph in wet lot versus 125mph on dry track. At low wet speeds, it will be very easy to break traction. The muscle-memory you develop as far as amount of throttle-twisting and correction amounts in steering and body-english will be completely different than what's required on track at higher speed.

Other thing is lean-angle. Due to low-speeds and low-traction, you'll be leaned over 15-20 degrees max in wet lot when breaking rear traction. On track, it'll be more like 50-55 degrees. Your finely calibrated sensors, inner ears, will know. If you tune them for 15-20 degrees in wet lot, they'll be completely unfamiliar with 50-55 degrees at higher speeds (ears also detects acceleration).

Which leads us back to real cause of your issues, corner-setup and entry. As you go faster into corner by having higher top-speed on previous straight and braking later, you are still covering same exact same distances through corner, from turn-in to apex to exit, but in less time. What does that mean?

Everything that happens after turn-in must occur faster! So tip-in speed from full-upright to full-lean must happen faster in order to carve same line at faster speed. And because you're going faster around curve, you have to lean more! You have to go from full-upright to leaning more in less time than previously at lower speed. That's why you are going wide and missing your apexes. The faster you go while not leaning over faster and farther, means you'll miss apexes by more and more.

This missing apexes and going wide is why you can't get on throttle sooner and 100% by exit of corner. You feel yourself being pushed off-course with not enough room to give it more throttle. So I recommend following:

- get more track-time
- practice getting from full-upright to full-lean faster
, push harder and faster on inside bar
- practice leaning over more, you've still got another 15-20 degrees before you're at limit


The types of improvements you're after takes lots of repetition with incremental progress. Like any other sporting skill such as basketball, tennis, archery, golf, etc., it requires tonnes of practice. People don't realize that it took DECADES of practice for Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or even Valentino Rossi to reach their skill levels. DECADES of practice, almost every single day!

So I get as much practice as possible. It takes 100-laps to make X-improvement and 200-laps to get Y-improvement. There's no shortcuts. I get in 45-50 days at track each year along with most of my racing colleagues. I chopped off 20s/lap at Thunderhill my 1st year, then 15s/lap 2nd year, 7s/lap this year. And I'm still 7s/lap off from 250 record. I may chop off 3s next year, 2s year after, and 1s year after that if I keep on going 45-50 days/year. In 5-years I may have shot at lap-record, maybe. Those who spent less time at track have made lesser improvements. I'm now 5s faster than guy that beat me in my 1st race (he only gets in 20 day@track/year). It's just matter of putting in required time and laps.

Good help is watching video "Winning" about Paul Newman! Also extremely helpful to watch others on similar bikes and slightly faster at same tracks you're visting. Note where they brake, turn-in, apex, get on throttle, etc. Get a feel for the timing, the tip-in speed, throttle-control, etc. I find it especially helpful to watch videos of guys I'm racing against!

I agree with 99% of what you say. I simply dont have the time nor oppertunity to to ride on any track 1/2 as much as you do. My thoughts on riding in the rain was not to handle the bike at 120mph, but to get back the feeling from the contact patches I have been missing. Lots of racers ride in the dirt to get a better sense of traction and that is where my thoughts were not with actual direct transfer to the race track. I appreciate your feedback on this idea and understand the limits of its practicallity. 3 years ago I was lapping much faster with more lean angle than I currently am doing. I had several years where life prevented me from riding more than a few hours a year during that time. Since I had such limited time on any bike at any speed during those years, I lost a lot of the feel for what the bike was doing and my skills got really rusty. The limited riding along with a few subtle changes to the bikes setup further hurt my riding. Since I was just starting to track ride seriously when all this happened, I have gone backwards quite a bit and know I am capable of much more than I have been doing these last few trips. I have not touched my knee down in three years of track trips yet before all these issues, I was dragging my knee too much and was advised to lift my knee and just use it as a reference. I am trying to get back to the confidence in the feedback from the bike so I can again run the same lean angles I once was easily able to achieve. Listed in one of the posts above I describe the major issue I was having with not being locked onto the bike like before. I am so happy to have found this issue as now I will be able to advance with all the advice you and others have been so friendly to give me.

Others have also pointed out that my turn in is too slow. I have been working on this since my last track trip. I was experiencing the bike refusing to turn past a point, no matter how hard I tried, once I entered a turn. This was caused by my not being locked onto the bike and putting too much weight on my hands to support my body once a certain lean angle was achieved. Since I was only able to lean the bike so far, I would hesitate on turn entry because I was unsure I would make the turn due to the "steering lock" issue. I have resolved this now and am just beginning to regain my confidence. As stated before, I used to be faster and lean farther but I was less smooth with my inputs and less consistent on lines. The video was to show that I had improved since last time out and that I am getting a bit better but still a long way to go.

I fully agree with you an the lazy steering, and poor corner finish. I am trying to get this all back in order in my head. There is still a bit of worry when I enter a turn from when I was not sure if I would make it thru if the steering issue would arise again. I know I have this solved I just have to get my mind to reprogram and allow me to just relax and start riding correctly again.

I would like your feedback on what I said above about riding in the rain. I agree it is not the perfect practice for the track but much like dirt riding, I feel it can help deal with traction loss. I dont have the time nor facilities to ride dirt anymore so this is the next best thing I could come up with besides just street riding. There is too much traffic here to ride at anything more than 5mph over the posted limit.

@DannoXYZ I do really appreciate you taking the time to write out what you did and I take all advice and criticism to hart as I want to improve. I am at a good point right now and think you will see much improvement next season when I post my next video. I am going to get a membership for the track for next year so I will have to ride more than 5 track days for it to be worth the investment. I have not done more than 4 track days in a season in the last 4 years. I have also made it a priority to ride my bike on the street every chance I get and take every oppertunity to practice all the things you and others have pointed out.

Thank you
Anthony
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2019, 08:22 AM   #218
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
^^ Interesting post. Not very promising for those who don't have decades of riding ahead of us, but interesting anyways.

I guess it depends too on how much risk one's willing to take on each corner. How often do you lay your bike down, @DannoXYZ?

I have fun practicing on the parking lot as well, even if not to useful on the track.
@Topaz,
There is no substitution for experience. I also dont have decades to practice but my goal is not to be world champion. Set a realistic goal for yourself and work towards that at your own pace. Wish I was young enough to race but at nearly 50 there is little hope for that now. I set my goal to be a better and safer rider. I have the rest of my time riding to achieve this goal. Just like most people getting to work the next day is more important that setting world records to me so I have to move forward at baby steps. We both have the good fortune to have the resource of this forum and the great people here to help us achieve our goals. Just ride and enjoy your bike and improve as quickly as your plan allows. I started as a new track rider approx 30 track days ago and I am now just a little below pace to ride with the second fastest group. I hope by the end of next season I will be riding in the Blue group but I am happy with Yellow now!
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 1st, 2019, 11:37 AM   #219
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
^^ Interesting post. Not very promising for those who don't have decades of riding ahead of us, but interesting anyways.

I guess it depends too on how much risk one's willing to take on each corner. How often do you lay your bike down, @DannoXYZ?

I have fun practicing on the parking lot as well, even if not to useful on the track.
I’ve crashed twice in my 3-yrs of track riding. Once my 1st year from being too impatient in T2 @ Thunderhill and whacking throttle to 100% in middle of corner. Second time was 2nd year at Buttonwillow when guy on liter-bike blasted by me on straight, pulled over in front me and slammed on his brakes. It was at least 100m before my braking marker and I was still at 100% throttle. Luckily he was so close to me that I just rear-ended him and flew onto his bike and landed on him. Basically sat on him and his bike as we crashed.

I don’t think you have to crash to make progress. That’s why track is so much safer than doing things on streets. You can go 85-95% and make 0.1% improvements incrementally. I’m not saying he should go 110% faster and just toss his bike into corners. But maybe back off tiny bit on speed and trying to go faster. Work on a little more tip-in speed and a tiny bit more lean-angle each lap. Higher speeds and faster lap-times will happen as side effect of this practice. More on this later.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old September 3rd, 2019, 08:49 AM   #220
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Im back again to update this thread. I have spent lots of time thinking about the way I have been riding and what is holding me back. The biggest issue is fear. We all have survival instincts that trigger in certain situations while riding that keep us from doing what we know we should be doing. I have found a few and am working on resolving them in my head and on the street. I doubt I will be on any race track again until May 2020 so this is all I have to work with for now.

I have covered the issue with not being able to hold onto the bike causing mid turn issues and I believe I have this fully sorted now. I still have to get used to trusting that the bike will turn properly but since the issue is gone this should not take long. I still don't have enough confidence in the front feel/grip level but as I slowly get used to the bike turning this should return.

Something I read by @csmith12 recently, really changed my way of thinking about how I ride. @csmith12 said "When I ride I am always either on the brakes or the throttle" (quoted from memory but you get the picture). I have not been riding on the track like this, I do too much coasting and maintenance throttle. Lets take the entry to turn 4 at Palmer, an uphill right hander into a late apex 90 degree turn. I approach at approx. 80-85 mph, roll off earlier than I should turn in around my marker and hold just enough throttle to keep from decelerating then wait for some point where my brain says I can make the turn and begin roll on past the apex. I need to brake some then lean into this turn and apply throttle. Not sure why I don't do this but I have to stop relying on engine braking and use the actual brakes to be more consistent at turn entry. This is just one example of what I am seeing in my videos that needs work.

Several people have pointed out that I am making all my inputs too slowly. My turn in is not fast enough and this is effecting the rest of the turn. I have been riding on the track the same way I ride on the road just faster, I need to stop being extra cautious and get more aggressive. On the street, I always ride gently (different than smooth) because you cant trust the road surface to have the grip you may suspect is there. I can ride a quick street pace and still be fairly cautious but this does not translate to the track. I know I can ride like I should but need to get over the "road" programming in my head.

The final Issue I have is the power of my bike. Since I don't know where the maximum level of traction is, I always roll on less than I should to prevent breaking the rear tire free or pushing the front. When I rode my wifes 250 on the Palmer track I had no issue running hard and was much better with roll on and even braking into turns. I have to stop being a pussy with the controls and just ride it like it should be done. Again many of the problems over the last few years like, limited riding time, hanging front calipers, poor body position and all the rest have taken me backwards a little but I really feel I have some of it sorted and most of it figured out now I just have to apply what I have learned. 2020 should be a really incredible season for me.

I am also planning on doing a bit of dirt bike riding which should help me practice some of these things and get used to the bike sliding and moving around under me.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 3rd, 2019, 03:32 PM   #221
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
...what is holding me back. The biggest issue is fear. We all have survival instincts that trigger in certain situations...

... I have covered the issue with not being able to hold onto the bike causing mid turn issues and I believe I have this fully sorted now. I still have to get used to trusting that the bike will turn properly but since the issue is gone this should not take long. I still don't have enough confidence in the front feel/grip level but as I slowly get used to the bike turning this should return.

... I do too much coasting and maintenance throttle. Lets take the entry to turn 4 at Palmer, an uphill right hander into a late apex 90 degree turn.

...I need to brake some then lean into this turn and apply throttle.

...Several people have pointed out that I am making all my inputs too slowly. My turn in is not fast enough and this is effecting the rest of the turn. I have been riding on the track the same way I ride on the road just faster, I need to stop being extra cautious and get more aggressive. ...


... The final Issue I have is the power of my bike. Since I don't know where the maximum level of traction is, I always roll on less than I should to prevent breaking the rear tire free or pushing the front. When I rode my wifes 250 on the Palmer track I had no issue running hard and was much better with roll on and even braking into turns. ...

... I am also planning on doing a bit of dirt bike riding which should help me practice some of these things and get used to the bike sliding and moving around under me.
Here's my observations and suggestions...

Laws of physics being what they are... bigger heavier bikes will always give less feedback and tyre "feel"... at the limit. What you describe as lack of "feel" is perfectly normal because you're not at limits of traction. What happens at limit is handlebars go numb with additional input when you're at limit; there's lack of response because tyres no longer push back since they have no more traction. On big bikes, their additional weight pushed tyres to limit and very little additional steering on bars is needed to send them over. On smaller bikes, since there's less weight, more of steering is used at limit and more kickback/feedback is present. Also when you go over limit, it's easier to catch on lighter bike.

I recommend you do more dry parking-lot practice on 250. You will learn faster tip-in, more lean-angle and better feel at limit in less time; months rather than years. This has been proven over and over again with numerous riders. Many of pro-racers have started on 250s with our AFM Racing club; maybe you've heard of Eddie Lawson, Wayne Rainey, Kenny Roberts, etc...

Do standard gymkhana practice cone-setups: ovals with 2-cones, figure-8s with 2/3-cones, boxes with 4-cones, etc. Practice going from full-upright to full-lean quicker and quicker, while always staying in your comfort-zone so you don't trigger fear responses. That causes arm lock-ups and hanging on too tight which just makes things worse and causes negative backwards progress.

Don't worry about tyre "feel" at limit, you're trying to jump ahead too far too quickly. Get to point where you can ride up to limit without fear first, then you'll have reserve brain-capacity to take in data and process it without going into survival mode. Rossi's telemetry shows his HR is calm and steady up to and over tyre's limits, it's like he's kicking back and watching TV on sofa! Cool as cucumber!


Figure-8s are good because you practice going from full-lean on one side to full-lean on other.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.


Then this becomes fun instead of terrifying!

Link to original page on YouTube.

https://www.facebook.com/motogymkhana.adventures/


Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 3rd, 2019 at 06:45 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old September 18th, 2019, 02:21 PM   #222
Misti
ninjette.org sage
 
Misti's Avatar
 
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010

Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard

Posts: 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
Im back again to update this thread. I have spent lots of time thinking about the way I have been riding and what is holding me back. The biggest issue is fear. We all have survival instincts that trigger in certain situations while riding that keep us from doing what we know we should be doing. I have found a few and am working on resolving them in my head and on the street.
Hey you!! I don't have much time but it's on my list to go back through this thread and comment on a few separate posts and a few points so that will come....in the mean time, I read the first bit of your comment here and it reminded me that I wrote a whole article on the concept of fear when riding. I've copied it and will paste it in it's entirely below. I know that you are already doing some of the things suggested in the article I just thought it might be pertinent to some of the things you are feeling....anyway, here you go and I'll be back at some point to discuss more

Overcoming Fear:

When you really boil it down, what is the biggest cause of fear when riding?

Fear is an unpleasant and usually strong emotion based on the anticipation of danger. Our bodies react automatically to this perception of danger and try to protect us, but when we ride motorcycles, our reactions often cause more harm than good. Keith Code, author of the renowned Twist of the Wrist series, calls these “survival reactions.”

The seven survival reactions (Listed in Twist of the Wrist II) are:

Rolling-off the gas.
Tightening on the bars.
Narrowed and frantically hunting field of view.
Fixed attention (on something).
Steering in the direction of the fixed attention.
No steering (frozen) or ineffective (not quick enough or too early steering).
Braking errors (both over and under braking).

Take for example, the fear that arises when you feel like you are suddenly into a corner too fast. What survival reaction, or automatic reaction crops up? Without our brains telling us to do so, our wrist often reacts by chopping the gas (survival reaction number 1) in hopes that this will reduce the possibility of danger and personal injury. However, chopping the gas is actually the exact opposite of what should be done in that situation and often increases the chance of running wide, or crashing mid corner.

What are other examples of survival reactions and fear when riding? Another common scenario is getting into a corner with a perceived too-high entry speed and then target fixating on the guard rail or the outside edge of the road and riding towards it, or riding towards the patch of gravel or oil mid corner because you can’t stop staring at it.

So can anything be done to reduce the chance that these survival reactions happen in the first place?

We tend to fear the things we don’t truly understand. If that’s the case then lack of knowledge, experience and expertise could contribute to an increase in fear and fear based reactions. So, in order to lessen the amount of fear it seems only logical that an increase in our understanding of riding skills and techniques would be able to lesson overall riding based anxiety or fear.

Wouldn’t it be amazing if when riding, we could eliminate some or all of those scary or panicky moments and cut down the chances of survival reactions happening all together?

Like if you were riding and found yourself mid corner too fast but you KNEW and had trained yourself how to NOT fixate on the edge of the road and to look ahead and through the corner instead, without even thinking about it.

Or like knowing that you can trust your tires beyond your comfort zone, or exactly how hard and fast you can get on the front brake before it will lock up or how to squeeze the tank to prevent your body from slamming forward under hard braking. Like knowing that if the rear end starts sliding that you should NOT chop the gas and that instead you should either stop rolling on or gently ease of the gas to prevent a highside.

The more you actually know and understand about riding, the more you have learned and practiced how to react correctly, the more likely you are to not have those fear based instincts that actually make situations worse. It’s not the things, or the situations causing the fear, but the lack of understanding and knowledge in that exact situation to know what to do. Since becoming a coach and increasing my knowledge base AND practicing these techniques often, I’ve drastically reduced fear, panic, and survival reactions because I know what to do in most situations that arise.

When is the last time you practiced a panic stop, or visual skills, or how to turn the bike as quick and effectively as possible in case you have to avoid sudden obstacles?

People fear what they don’t know or understand. So, to ride with less fear we must understand more. But how do you do that?

There are many ways. Reading this is a start. Reading everything you can about motorcycle riding technique from a trusted source can help. Going to a track day and working with one of the provided coaches is a safe way to learn new techniques. Taking an advanced riding course and then continually working on improving your own riding and practicing what you learned is an outstanding method.

Make sure your bike and suspension are set up for your weight and correctly for you and the conditions you will be riding in. Pay attention, study, ask pertinent questions, adjust as needed from self awareness and experience. Be open minded and willing to learn and to continue to learn and improve. Practice something every time you ride and leave your ego at home. Riding should be considered a skill that needs continual improvement, focus and work, and don’t forget to practice, practice, practice.

Ride Safe!
__________________________________________________
"Leap and the net will appear!"
superbikeschool.com
www.motomom.ca
Misti is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 1st, 2020, 05:25 PM   #223
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Hello from the darkness,
It has been way too long since I last posted here. My wife has sold her Ninja 250 (no new bike yet) and track season has passed. I lost my job on April 22, 2020 due to Covid 19 and have been jobless ever since. I applied to Connecticut unemployment on May 5, 2020 and received a confirmation e-mail the following day May 6. The e-mail said they are processing my claim and due to pandemic, they were way behind so dont do anything until I receive a 2nd email. Cut to 6 months later, I had to consult a wonderful Labor attorney who finally managed to speak to more than a recording at the CT DOL. The CT DOL told me to apply in Mass where I live as they were not going to do the little bit of digging to find my wages. Mass DOL had told me to apply for unemployment in CT at that is where my work is located. 6 months of having the CT DOL just play recordings and hanging up on you. I called them more than 50X some days and sent 100's of e-mails yet nothing, could not reach a human being nor retrieve any further instructions than : Please refer to our Job Centers with any additional questions or problems there is a list of Job center locations on our web page. Once on the web page (I promise to get to track riding very soon this is relevant) they tell you all job centers are indefinately closed due to pandemic!! I have reapplied to Mass and hope to have a resolution soon or no track next year.

Since I was home all summer and I had a membership for Tony's Track days, I figured I would make lemonade. I was able to do more track days this year than the past 3 years combined! I was able to purchase some IMA adjustable triple clamps for the track 999 and some Galfer Tsunami brake rotors so as usual, the bike was way more ready than I. My 2003 999 has been 99% track for the last 5 years and I could not be more happy with this bike as a track hack. The issues I reported in the many posts above were not the bikes fault and 100% caused by the rider...AKA....me. Several of the users on this forum have ridden the bike and none experienced the issue that I described. Last season, 2019, I managed to figure out that the foot pegs were too far forward and too high for me causing me to have to support my body with my hands once the bike was past street lean angles. The street lean angles part was what took so long to figure out this issue as I never experienced this off the track. My best lap time of the Pamler Mass track counter clockwise was 2:16 approx. I have been using the same tire brand since my crash back several years ago: Dunlop Q3 or Q3+. I developed high confidence and feel with these tires. So we have trusted tires, great brakes, improved ergonomics and with the new offset triple clamps, better geometry.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 1st, 2020, 05:35 PM   #224
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
My first track trip for 2020 was to be the Memorial day weekend at the end of May but it was cancelled due to Covid pandemic. Tony's Track days responded by adding a trip to the next scheduled track event and I went to New York Safety Track. I would like to mention that NYST is where I feel the least safe, the track is great, just a more rowdy crowd when you go there. Being my first time back on track in several months, new additions to the bike and not being too familiar with the NYST layout I had a lot of learning to do before I could really push. Even with being extra careful while relearning the track and bike, I could tell that things were so much better. Since I had only ridden NYST 1 prior trip I had no reference of lap times and barely knew the layout so no direct comparison but the bike was turning and I could go as fast as I dare with none of the mid turn steering lock I had experienced. I slowly amped up my laps over the 2 days and the bike gave me ZERO negative feedback. My confidence was high and I could not wait for my next track trip at Palmer running clock wise.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old November 1st, 2020, 05:49 PM   #225
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Finally,
Back at my favorite track but running backwards a direction I have only ridden 1 before. During my NYST trip 2 weeks prior, as I got more and more confident in the feedback/feeling from the tires, I was bragging how the bike was so stable, I could wait to brake from the front strait until I began to take turn #1! Exageration for sure but that is how amazing the bike felt to me. Not only could I turn the bike like I wanted but the extra feel from the tires allowed me to trail brake longer and harder than I had ever dared before. I still had not come to full grips with this new setup. I dont know if the ergonomic changes or the bike geometry made the biggest difference but combined they made riding the bike sooooooo much easier and an easy to ride bike is a fast bike. Since I have only ever ridden Palmer backwards one time in the past, I had no lap times to compare but the tires and other riders said I was improving. I am running in yellow group (second slowest just above red which is the slowest group) and found that I was always catching the riders in front of me. Even when I was first out on track, I would catch other riders and lap some. Not a good indicator of speed but it shows I was not the slowest in the group.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 1st, 2020, 05:56 PM   #226
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
The next trip was 2 days at Palmer going the right way. Anyone who has riddin into Palmers uphill turn 1 knows what great fun that turn can be. I dont have a lap timer as such, but there is a timer on the dash of the 999. You have to remember to hit the starter button every lap at the same spot for it to even hope to be accurate but it showed my lap times dropping down to 2:11 which is 5 full seconds faster than last year (2019)! I was also advised that my lines are much better and consistent. I even managed to wreck a set of tires in 2 track days. My past set of Dunlop Q3's lasted 6-7 track days before I replaced them. Still not a single slip, balk or even a twitch as negative feedback from the bike.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 1st, 2020, 06:11 PM   #227
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
This final trip of 2020 had to be to Palmer. Tony's Track Days had a 3 day event at the beginning of September and I was there! I also bought a GPS track timer to see whats really going on out there. My Dunlops were fairly new but I was concerned they would not last the weekend. I pre ordered some DOT track Pirelli's from the track tire guy but wanted to start the trip on my worn but known Q3+'s. My first day was good with knee down for real several times on several sessions and the tires were getting thinner. I had only managed to gently scape my knee slider since the crash and steering issues. Unfortunately the lap timer was experiencing issues but luck put the guy who assembles them in the garage next to me. I cant thank Ben enough, although he had issues with both his bikes, he still not only tried to fix it at the track but took it home and repaired it for me! Talk about customer service!!!. Once the timer was working things got crazy with me hitting 1:58 lap times by the end of day 2! I had the Pirelli's installed the morning of day 2 and what a difference between the Q3+'2 and these Pirelli's. Dunlop uses a much stiffer carcase than Pirelli which led to some pumping in the rear of my bike early on. I still went faster but the bike felt squishy in the rear even though I was using the recommended air pressures provided by tire guy Mike. Mr Fist @adouglas suggested having the suspension guy take a look at my setup. You cant reject good advice from good friends so off to the Computrac truck I went. I found out that the rear shock had 0 compression dampening dialed in!!!!!!! No wonder the rear felt squishy with a softer tire on there! $45 dollars later and I was ready to really ride this bike.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 1st, 2020, 07:00 PM   #228
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
I also must thank @adouglas for twisting my arm until I moved up into Blue group. Mr. Fist has been there for every track trip and is such a great source of information. His experience, encouragement and knowledge have been priceless in my journey. So there I was on the third day in a row at Palmer, bike working better than ever and my confidence could not have been better. I wake up late and sore from the past 2 days running faster laps than I ever had before. The first session is a throw away as you have to follow the leader for 2 laps then everyone is bunched up so no fast laps. I had added approx 5mm of rear ride height-Ducati has an adjustable rod for this- based on Computrac's recommendation. My mind was ready but the body was a little sore. Discussing the bike with Mr Fist before the second session, I said that I believed that 1:55 would be achieved with the way the bike felt. I headed out for my second session on the Third and last day of this season. The grid was empty so I took the front right spot and got out on track alone-in the Blue group now. When I returned to the garage after the session and checked the lap times, I was shaken! 1:55.8!!!!!! That is a 15-17 second improvement this year! I did not get below the 1:55.8 the rest of the day but I did run several 1:58's posting 2 identical times! Problem solved for now
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 1st, 2020, 07:39 PM   #229
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
I would like to thank so many of you fellow members for not only taking the time to read this thread but for the great feedback and advice that so many of you have offered. Without the friends, support and encouragement of this forum I might never have even tried the track. What you write on here may mean more to someone than you know.

OK so what did I learn from all of this?

First off running the race line is essential. There is no way to slowly increase entry speed into a turn if you are approaching it differently every lap.

Second: same as above, you cant roll on earlier/later if your speed or line are not the same each lap.

Third: How hard it really is to hold the throttle wide open at full acceleration while headed towards a rock wall, jersey barriers or any solid object. Even running up a steep hill where I know there is plenty of time to stop, I found it difficult to keep the throttle 100%. Something to work on next season.

Fourth: (General rule) if the bike is at less then 90% lean you should be at some level of throttle or brake. Would love to discuss this rule in depth as it can be easily misunderstood. This rule helped me find a lot of the time I made up on track and showed me places where I was decellerating when I should have been on the gas. Another Ducati rider from the Black (Fastest) group discussed this with me and it really helped me change my thinking.

Fifth: Do the track walk. Even if you are super fast, nothing beats the slow walk with loads of time to note reference pionts, find hidden bumps or just get a better feeling for the surface of the track turn by turn.

Sixth: Suspension, many on here dont have adjustable suspension. I had not looked or adjusted my rear suspension in 10 years. Computrac found that the compression on my rear shock was set to 0. I was unaware that anything was wrong till I swapped to Pirelli tires. I had no complaints with the stiffer Dunlop tires but as soon as the Pirelli's were installed unwanted movement from the rear appeared. I want to get the suspension fully redone with Ohlins out back and possibly some cartridges in the forks.

Seventh: I still have a lot to learn. While 1:55 is super fast to me, not so much for the guys running in Black group at 1:48 or less. I know where I need to get on the gas earlier and hold max throttle longer to get down to 1:50ish but the last few seconds will be another journey in themselves. I will try to upload the video for my fastest laps tomorrow so you can critique my riding so I can further improve. I showed my wife my old videos and this newest fast lap and she can see I am not riding past my 85-90%. My point is that I am riding much faster yet there is no more danger than before. Yes the faster speeds mean possible worse injuries but the video shows no more chance of a crash than before. Actually with getting the race lines better, the exit of the turn has you pointing in the right direction so less chance of visiting the grass!

Final: Relax, the more I tried to go faster or just think too much about doing it perfectly, the slower I went. Once I just relaxed and rode the bike and had fun, the lap times dropped and I had more fun! My muscle memory knows how to ride the bike so letting the thinking part of my brain just slowed things down. The more I relaxed the better I flowed with the bike and the better the bike worked. Like Keith Code says: Is the bike happy? are you happy when the bikes happy?



To wrap up,
I will keep adding to this thread if possible. My 2021 track season is sketchy at best right now but I always hope for the best. I have not even come close to what my bike is capable of but I am closer than ever. I hope to post 1:50 or better next season but thats another story.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 3rd, 2020, 10:03 PM   #230
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Hi Ant, awesome job of making comeback!! Such amazing work! So glad you found ergonomic issue with bike! How did you figure that out BTW?

thanks for the write-up! So much more fun reading about track success stories than frustrating ones. Palmer's on my to-do list! Perhaps next year we should plan a Ninette gathering Palmer!!!
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 4th, 2020, 09:43 AM   #231
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
@DannoXYZ, thanks for the encouragement. My struggle to solve this issue took a long time due to my lack of track time, my crash and a few other events that kept me from finding the answer quickly.

I was running well before my crash, 2:16 a lap but my lines were not good and no consistencency lap to lap. I was able to drag my knee all the time but could not hit my marks lap after lap, then I crashed. After my crash, I had to replace foot pegs and clip ons. The ergonomics were slightly different and I did not realize that this was causing me to have to use my hands to support my body at high lean angles. I would practice being light on the bars in every turn but did not have the mental budget to see when I got past a certain lean angle, I had to grip the bars to support my body. 90% of turns thers was no issue but once I got over so far, weight had to be supported with my hands and the steering would lock up, making for some scary corner exits. Since it only happened in some turns and not others, this took a long time to figure out. I even bought a second Ducati so I could set both bikes up with same geometry, one for street and one for track. The street bike never showed the issue mid turn like I experienced on the track. After several times having the front slide/plow mid turn at speeds where I knew it should be gripping, I realized this is my problem and not the bike. I also found that my hips and knees were very sore after a day at the track vs hours of street riding. I began to look closely at my body position especially at full lean. Before my crash, I was able to get my knee down in most turns yet something had changed. I even hung the bike from my basement ceiling, at full lean to try to figure out what was different. I found that if I moved the rearsets back and down a little, I could lock my knee into the tank much better and keep the weight off my hands. Finding the answer was further delayed after I loaned my brake lever to a fellow Ducati rider after he crashed. He returned the lever but I did not realize he had adjusted the actuator pin on the lever. Once back on my bike the lever worked fine on the street but at trac pace, the brakes would slightly drag once hot and the bike refused to turn. I finally solved that issue and bought the offset tripple clamps and new steering bearings just to be sure there were no further undiagnosed turning issues. The rest was all due to Covid 19. My normal work day starts at 6am and does not end till 10:30pm when I get home from work. My commute is over 100 miles each way so the bike is not really an option and I only see my wife on the weekends so riding time on Weekends is limited. With Covids forced retirement, I had nothing but time to ride my street bike and with a track membership, I had several possible track days available. Once the ergonomics issue was resolved, I just used the free time to ride the wheels off both bikes. I went thru 3 sets of tires thus season. 2 on track hack and one on the street ride, usually even track tires last 2-3 seasons for me. Without the input, coaching and support from all you equally addicted forum members, this would have been my last track season as its no fun carrying speed into a turn just to lock up mid turn, panic and run wide worrying about staying on the track! How many trips would you pay for if you are not progressing? I was getting very discouraged and worried that eventually my front end push or running wide would end in a spectacular crash. The changes I made to the bike were not the solution, I had to change my body position so I could better support my torso with my legs and core. Once I addressed this, I was able to make the bike follow my inputs and times improved
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 23rd, 2020, 01:41 PM   #232
Misti
ninjette.org sage
 
Misti's Avatar
 
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010

Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard

Posts: 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I would like to thank so many of you fellow members for not only taking the time to read this thread but for the great feedback and advice that so many of you have offered. Without the friends, support and encouragement of this forum I might never have even tried the track. What you write on here may mean more to someone than you know.

OK so what did I learn from all of this?

First off running the race line is essential. There is no way to slowly increase entry speed into a turn if you are approaching it differently every lap.

Second: same as above, you cant roll on earlier/later if your speed or line are not the same each lap.

Third: How hard it really is to hold the throttle wide open at full acceleration while headed towards a rock wall, jersey barriers or any solid object. Even running up a steep hill where I know there is plenty of time to stop, I found it difficult to keep the throttle 100%. Something to work on next season.

Fourth: (General rule) if the bike is at less then 90% lean you should be at some level of throttle or brake. Would love to discuss this rule in depth as it can be easily misunderstood. This rule helped me find a lot of the time I made up on track and showed me places where I was decellerating when I should have been on the gas. Another Ducati rider from the Black (Fastest) group discussed this with me and it really helped me change my thinking.

Fifth: Do the track walk. Even if you are super fast, nothing beats the slow walk with loads of time to note reference pionts, find hidden bumps or just get a better feeling for the surface of the track turn by turn.

Sixth: Suspension, many on here dont have adjustable suspension. I had not looked or adjusted my rear suspension in 10 years. Computrac found that the compression on my rear shock was set to 0. I was unaware that anything was wrong till I swapped to Pirelli tires. I had no complaints with the stiffer Dunlop tires but as soon as the Pirelli's were installed unwanted movement from the rear appeared. I want to get the suspension fully redone with Ohlins out back and possibly some cartridges in the forks.

Seventh: I still have a lot to learn. While 1:55 is super fast to me, not so much for the guys running in Black group at 1:48 or less. I know where I need to get on the gas earlier and hold max throttle longer to get down to 1:50ish but the last few seconds will be another journey in themselves. I will try to upload the video for my fastest laps tomorrow so you can critique my riding so I can further improve. I showed my wife my old videos and this newest fast lap and she can see I am not riding past my 85-90%. My point is that I am riding much faster yet there is no more danger than before. Yes the faster speeds mean possible worse injuries but the video shows no more chance of a crash than before. Actually with getting the race lines better, the exit of the turn has you pointing in the right direction so less chance of visiting the grass!

Final: Relax, the more I tried to go faster or just think too much about doing it perfectly, the slower I went. Once I just relaxed and rode the bike and had fun, the lap times dropped and I had more fun! My muscle memory knows how to ride the bike so letting the thinking part of my brain just slowed things down. The more I relaxed the better I flowed with the bike and the better the bike worked. Like Keith Code says: Is the bike happy? are you happy when the bikes happy?



To wrap up,
I will keep adding to this thread if possible. My 2021 track season is sketchy at best right now but I always hope for the best. I have not even come close to what my bike is capable of but I am closer than ever. I hope to post 1:50 or better next season but thats another story.
Great write up and great progression!! Well done! I'm glad to hear that you were able to take good information from a variety of people and put it all to use in a way that made sense to you. I love the way that you list the things that helped you in a systematic way and that you are open to the fact that you still have a lot to learn.

For your final comment, you talk about being relaxed and mention that when you tried to go fast, it didn't work out as well for you vs when you worked on being relaxed. This is super important.

Now, you can remind yourself to be relaxed until the cows come home, but there are usually specific things you need to do to help you stay relaxed while riding. What did you find were some specific techniques you used to help you be more relaxed? Was it looking further ahead? How you were sitting on the bike? Were you squeezing the tank with your knees? What was the biggest factor in helping you stay relaxed while riding?
__________________________________________________
"Leap and the net will appear!"
superbikeschool.com
www.motomom.ca
Misti is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old November 24th, 2020, 12:19 PM   #233
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Great write up and great progression!! Well done! I'm glad to hear that you were able to take good information from a variety of people and put it all to use in a way that made sense to you. I love the way that you list the things that helped you in a systematic way and that you are open to the fact that you still have a lot to learn.

For your final comment, you talk about being relaxed and mention that when you tried to go fast, it didn't work out as well for you vs when you worked on being relaxed. This is super important.

Now, you can remind yourself to be relaxed until the cows come home, but there are usually specific things you need to do to help you stay relaxed while riding. What did you find were some specific techniques you used to help you be more relaxed? Was it looking further ahead? How you were sitting on the bike? Were you squeezing the tank with your knees? What was the biggest factor in helping you stay relaxed while riding?


@Misty,
Thank you for taking the time to read this and comment. Without people like you and so many others, I think I would have sold my bike by now and found another hobby! I will do my best to answer your question but I am still working everything out in my head.

Everytime I try to intentionally up my pace, I find that I start to make small mistakes which take time and effort to correct before the next turn. This seems to overwhelm my mental budget and force further errors at the next turn entry. I found that if I just focus on the "rules" of riding, stay on line, hit all markers, I am able to roll on just a little bit earlier and the lap times drop-if ever so slightly. The best lap times for me feel slow but the chrono does not lie. When the bike and I are working in a smooth rhythm, like a dance, the bike feels fluid and I go faster but all I feel is that I could have done the turn faster. Rushing into the turn trying to brake later and turn in faster has lead to small mistakes which are just amplified if I rush the next corner entry. With a relax and just ride attitude, the bike stays happy which makes me happy and when I am happy and the bike is happy, its much easier to start rolling on earlier in the turn and hold the throttle open longer on the straight which is the flour low lap times are made from.

I am no wordsmith so my description above may not make good sense to you, I will try to sum it up below.

When the bike misbehaves or I miss my marks, I realize that I am not relaxed and focused. I am over spending my mental budget and need to smooth out. The bike is way better at riding the track than I so it must be me that is the cause of these issue(at least at my level) and I need to "Flow" with the bike and track better. Once I realize I am trying to force the bike to go faster, I can focus on my mantra for the track. My mantra goes a little like this: Lift bike and run to right hand outside of track look for marker X, move butt over and begin braking, find turn in marker and begin to release brake, turn, begin roll on and look for exit reference marker........RINSE and Repeat. Something like that not like when I am "rushing things" where : count to 1 after brake marker to brake, brake harder to slow enough for turn entry, turn faster and rush to get back on the throttle. This all seems to come down to experience, the more I ride and the faster I unintentionally go, my markers seem to "automatically" change slightly and lap times improve. I cant see any other possible cause than overwhelmed mental budget. When I flow with the bike there is no worry of entering the turn too fast and running out of grip, I just slowly add more load to the tires which have time to give me the feed back that they are OK, which gives me confidence to roll on and again receive feedback that they are not losing traction, which helps keep the throttle pinned longer and longer.
I guess what I am saying is that relaxing gives me confidence to go faster and when I dont have the confidence, I recenter, and focus on my favorite Keith Code quote:" is the bike happy, are you happy when the bike is happy?" Just like marriage, keep your partner happy and everything else gets much smoother and works better!


PS: Next season I hope to be writing about exiting turns with the rear gently sliding but that is another journey!
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 25th, 2020, 02:42 PM   #234
CC Cowboy
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
CC Cowboy's Avatar
 
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
Join Date: Jan 2009

Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind!

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post

I love this thought


Third: How hard it really is to hold the throttle wide open at full acceleration while headed towards a rock wall, jersey barriers or any solid object.
If you know the track ( meaning your reference points) solid objects shouldn't be scheme of racing line.
__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough!
CC Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 28th, 2020, 11:51 AM   #235
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Cowboy View Post
If you know the track ( meaning your reference points) solid objects shouldn't be scheme of racing line.
@CC Cowboy,
Care to elaborate on what you are saying here and dicuss further? I agree that with good reference points, the edges of the track and beyond should not be an issue but when you are learning they can be hugr obsticals to over come.
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 30th, 2020, 12:07 PM   #236
CC Cowboy
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
CC Cowboy's Avatar
 
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
Join Date: Jan 2009

Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind!

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
@CC Cowboy,
Care to elaborate on what you are saying here and dicuss further? I agree that with good reference points, the edges of the track and beyond should not be an issue but when you are learning they can be hugr obsticals to over come.

If you are hitting your marks your total concentration should be there and not what is out of that area of focus.
__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough!
CC Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old December 2nd, 2020, 11:39 AM   #237
Ducati999
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: Ant
Location: Wooster
Join Date: Dec 2013

Motorcycle(s): Ducati 999 2012 Ninja 250r Ducati748 Yellow finally running 2003 SV650 S (SOLD)

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Cowboy View Post
If you are hitting your marks your total concentration should be there and not what is out of that area of focus.
I thank you for your reply and I guess I should have been a little more clear. Since this is a thread about learning to ride fast, I was hoping your answer would include some of the techniques you or others use to overcome the problem described. I know I should not be afraid (SR) and slowly roll back the throttle. I try to force myself to keep it at 100% but looking up the track, especially on the long straight, I still find that I have been slowly backing off the throttle. Do I need more reference points to keep my mind working and not thinking about the situation or just focus on forcing my brain to keep the throttle pinned? Is this a lack of confidence or just me not being used to running the bike at full throttle in high gear and arriving at the brake marker at a higher speed than previous? There is no doubt that what you said is 100% true and correct, Im just looking for suggestions/experience in dealing with the problem.

Ant
Ducati999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 2nd, 2020, 09:33 PM   #238
jrshooter
ninjette.org guru
 
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016

Motorcycle(s): ninja 300

Posts: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I thank you for your reply and I guess I should have been a little more clear. Since this is a thread about learning to ride fast, I was hoping your answer would include some of the techniques you or others use to overcome the problem described. I know I should not be afraid (SR) and slowly roll back the throttle. I try to force myself to keep it at 100% but looking up the track, especially on the long straight, I still find that I have been slowly backing off the throttle. Do I need more reference points to keep my mind working and not thinking about the situation or just focus on forcing my brain to keep the throttle pinned? Is this a lack of confidence or just me not being used to running the bike at full throttle in high gear and arriving at the brake marker at a higher speed than previous? There is no doubt that what you said is 100% true and correct, Im just looking for suggestions/experience in dealing with the problem.

Ant
i dont know how much of this will pertain to you but maybe.
disclaimer- i race at the lowest level of club racing so all my info could be wrong,
the biggest leap i made in lowering my track times had to do with vision and mind set.
i lost 9 seconds a lap in one day to only changing these two things.
the info ill pass onto you you would have heard already, as i had already had heard
I took a one race school put on by one of our track day providers,there was not a lot of technique taught but a lot on vision and mind set that was taught.
I will explain in simplest terms first and then what i brought out of it.
first on vision. i thought i was looking way in front of the motorcycle but what i was doing was looking mabe 1/2 the way to my next mark, i could see my next mark in my perifiry but only focused about 1/2 way. this made it easy for me to settle on speed that was not full throttle. when my laser focus shifted to my next mark way up there all of a sudden i wanted to be was where i was focused at and i wanted there NOW. now im full throttle between turns and cant get up there fast enough. Dave stanton told me when the right wrist rolls back the head goes up, he said picture a rope connected to your wrist to your head. I fool you not i went from a 2.20 to a 2.11 lap time in one day.
bonus i had a few fears commiting to this. when i tipped in and was happy with speed and direction and knew i was going to hit the apex it was hard for me to raise my vision i wanted to watch the bike all the way to the apex before i raised my eyes. the sooner i raise my eyes the sooner i want to be there.
hope this helps.
jrshooter is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 2nd, 2020, 10:13 PM   #239
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Cowboy View Post
If you are hitting your marks your total concentration should be there and not what is out of that area of focus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I try to force myself to keep it at 100% but looking up the track, especially on the long straight, I still find that I have been slowly backing off the throttle. Do I need more reference points to keep my mind working and not thinking about the situation or just focus on forcing my brain to keep the throttle pinned? Is this a lack of confidence or just me not being used to running the bike at full throttle in high gear and arriving at the brake marker at a higher speed than previous? There is no doubt that what you said is 100% true and correct, Im just looking for suggestions/experience in dealing with the problem.
You need to focus on your reference-points more and move your braking markers back for higher top-speed. Not seeing your target braking-marker is causing you to roll off throttle.

I have some stories that relate and may help you with this. I did 15-years of bicycle racing starting at university. Had some friends and teammates that stayed with me through that entire experience. I was weakest one of bunch with my teammates beating me during training in everything: sprints, hillclimbs, time-trials, etc. However, I always did better in races as I reached highest levels of the sport.

One race in particular highlighted differences in how we performed in same identical race. After 100-miles of slogging through backroads of central CA, we were nearing finish. Couple laps through downtown with a prime or two for spectators. I took one and my teammate took the other and we were setting up for final sprint. We were side-by-side behind other guys who were going to finish #3 & 4 spots, ready for them to lead us out. Pack thins out as pace picks up with 1.5 laps to go, 38... 39... 40... 41..

Couple of linebacker-types try to bump me off wheel ahead, I hold steady. Guy couple spots up starts sprint 1/2 lap out to lead his guy to finish. I latch onto him... 42...43... going 100% screaming bloody murder giving it all I've got! Leadout guy fades and it's just the two of us... I'm barely holding his draft and I know I gotta come around him and accelerate faster to get him at line... I give a last ditch effort for 2-3 sec with all I've got.. 44...45.. then just as I'm about to rear-end him, I come around... spinning madly 130rpms+.. another 2-3 secs... we're neck & neck... Shove bike forward as I slide off rear of seat.. >thunk< as seat punches me in belly!! I got him by inches at line!!! ..... woohoo!!!

I look around for my teammate and he's nowhere to be found. Next lap around I find him being picked up by ambulance crew and road-rash treated. I really don't understand what happened, he was right next to me on last lap. It really took reviewing video footage of last lap to convince me there was crash! One of linebacker-types tried to shove off guy ahead of me to let their teammates in front get gap to take finish. They both got tangled and crashed, taking my teammate out as well. I didn't even see it!! I was too focused on two guys in front who were going to win that I didn't even see crash occurring. I just went around it as part of staying focused and fixated on staying with them. Thinking back, I never ever saw anyone hit the ground in my last 10-yrs of racing. As soon as something iffy started to happen, I would focus on getting around it.

Moral of story is you have only 100% of your focus to take in... what... 1-2% of the environment around you? You want to focus only on next reference point, hit it and focus on next one. One of the coaches call this connecting-the-dots. Focus on getting that next point perfect, then go for next one, ignore everything whizzing by.

In your case, back up your brake-markers another 50m so you can go 100% WOT to them. When you find yourself coasting with plenty of room to turn-in marker, move braking-marker up 1-2m at a time.

Wall? what wall??

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 3rd, 2020 at 10:53 AM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 7th, 2020, 01:45 PM   #240
Misti
ninjette.org sage
 
Misti's Avatar
 
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010

Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard

Posts: 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
@Misty,
Thank you for taking the time to read this and comment. Without people like you and so many others, I think I would have sold my bike by now and found another hobby! I will do my best to answer your question but I am still working everything out in my head.

Everytime I try to intentionally up my pace, I find that I start to make small mistakes which take time and effort to correct before the next turn. This seems to overwhelm my mental budget and force further errors at the next turn entry. I found that if I just focus on the "rules" of riding, stay on line, hit all markers, I am able to roll on just a little bit earlier and the lap times drop-if ever so slightly. The best lap times for me feel slow but the chrono does not lie. When the bike and I are working in a smooth rhythm, like a dance, the bike feels fluid and I go faster but all I feel is that I could have done the turn faster. Rushing into the turn trying to brake later and turn in faster has lead to small mistakes which are just amplified if I rush the next corner entry. With a relax and just ride attitude, the bike stays happy which makes me happy and when I am happy and the bike is happy, its much easier to start rolling on earlier in the turn and hold the throttle open longer on the straight which is the flour low lap times are made from.

I am no wordsmith so my description above may not make good sense to you, I will try to sum it up below.

When the bike misbehaves or I miss my marks, I realize that I am not relaxed and focused. I am over spending my mental budget and need to smooth out. The bike is way better at riding the track than I so it must be me that is the cause of these issue(at least at my level) and I need to "Flow" with the bike and track better. Once I realize I am trying to force the bike to go faster, I can focus on my mantra for the track. My mantra goes a little like this: Lift bike and run to right hand outside of track look for marker X, move butt over and begin braking, find turn in marker and begin to release brake, turn, begin roll on and look for exit reference marker........RINSE and Repeat. Something like that not like when I am "rushing things" where : count to 1 after brake marker to brake, brake harder to slow enough for turn entry, turn faster and rush to get back on the throttle. This all seems to come down to experience, the more I ride and the faster I unintentionally go, my markers seem to "automatically" change slightly and lap times improve. I cant see any other possible cause than overwhelmed mental budget. When I flow with the bike there is no worry of entering the turn too fast and running out of grip, I just slowly add more load to the tires which have time to give me the feed back that they are OK, which gives me confidence to roll on and again receive feedback that they are not losing traction, which helps keep the throttle pinned longer and longer.
I guess what I am saying is that relaxing gives me confidence to go faster and when I dont have the confidence, I recenter, and focus on my favorite Keith Code quote:" is the bike happy, are you happy when the bike is happy?" Just like marriage, keep your partner happy and everything else gets much smoother and works better!


PS: Next season I hope to be writing about exiting turns with the rear gently sliding but that is another journey!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati999 View Post
I thank you for your reply and I guess I should have been a little more clear. Since this is a thread about learning to ride fast, I was hoping your answer would include some of the techniques you or others use to overcome the problem described. I know I should not be afraid (SR) and slowly roll back the throttle. I try to force myself to keep it at 100% but looking up the track, especially on the long straight, I still find that I have been slowly backing off the throttle. Do I need more reference points to keep my mind working and not thinking about the situation or just focus on forcing my brain to keep the throttle pinned? Is this a lack of confidence or just me not being used to running the bike at full throttle in high gear and arriving at the brake marker at a higher speed than previous? There is no doubt that what you said is 100% true and correct, Im just looking for suggestions/experience in dealing with the problem.

Ant
You described everything great and you are not alone in this! These are common problems that riders face. Here are my thoughts. You are only as good as your visual skills and confidence will come from knowing that you have a solid grasp of where you are on track and where you are going. If any of those things are in qustion, then you tend to unsconsciously slow down or limit your ability to go fast. It's impossible to force yourself to go into a corner faster or brake later if you don't know where you are going.

You have great observations in your own riding when you say that when you try and go fast you end up. making small mistakes that result in an overall slower lap time and a more flustered ride. Smooth = fast so lets concentrate on what helps keep your riding smooth and how to systematically improve your overall speed.

My suggestion to you would be to draw the track and marke down your current reference points. From there you can look at the areas that will help improve your time the most. Usually corners that lead onto a straight or fast corners at the end of a straight is where you will gain the most time, so look at those first. Do you have a solid RP for where you want to initiate braking? Do you have an end of braking RP? Would it help if you did? What about an exit RP? Start filling in those blanks and then continue from there.

You said you have a hard time getting to WOT when you try and look all the way down the track. What if you added a reference point earlier? Maybe at the exit of the corner or half way down the track? Would that help you feel more confident of your location? Would that help you get to WOT? What if you moved your brake marker at the end of that straight a little earlier but didnt get on the brakes so hard? Would that give you more confidence to carry more corner entry speed which would result in an overall faster entrance?

I know that is a lot of questions but I really think that nailing down and adjusting some of your current RP's will really help. Thoughts?
__________________________________________________
"Leap and the net will appear!"
superbikeschool.com
www.motomom.ca
Misti is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need more tire edge Timr Ninjettes At Speed 16 October 8th, 2014 02:45 PM
grom over the edge at the gap alex.s Videos 15 June 24th, 2014 09:30 PM
On the edge... 2011Ninja250R The Ex-Ninjetters Lair 1 October 8th, 2011 07:12 AM
Living on the Edge csmith12 Ride Reports 1 June 12th, 2011 06:21 AM
[twistingasphalt.com] - On the Edge of the World Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 January 18th, 2011 09:50 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:40 AM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.