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Old October 13th, 2016, 07:04 PM   #1
Bk834
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Relocating the Battery

Having reacquired my Cage for DD Duty, and a much larger/faster bike to have fun on, I'm now building my little ninja 250 into a lightweight cafe racer. I'm trying to achieve what is known as the "Glory Hole", which is the large open space in the frame between the seat and swing arm. As you can see I've already relocated all the electronics to the empty space under the tank, and above the carb, but I still have the battery left to relocate.

The obvious would be to fabricate a mount, and mount it atop the strut mount, but that will ruin my Glory Hole. There's are loads of threads on this subject online for other bikes, but I would like to know some actual pregen ninja owners ideas, of where would be the cleanest and safest place to relocate my battery, so I can keep my Glory Hole glorious. Thanks.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 08:08 PM   #2
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Just for your consideration:
The original location follows two main rules:

1) The point where shakes/impacts/forces coming from the irregularities of the road are minimum (halfway between both contact patches), because those are the enemies of the internals of any battery.

2) The point close to where the three axis of rotation of the bike cross, because centralization of mass = more agile bike.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208528

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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:04 AM   #3
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So with that in mind, looks like the only real option is to fabricate a steel box to contain it, and mount it underneath the bike somewhere as close to the center of the bikes mass as possible. I don't see a cleaner or better option myself.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:27 AM   #4
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You may want to consider getting a four cell Lithium-Iron battery. They're tiny and much easier to hide. Plus they weigh about a pound. I use one for my racebike.


This one has plenty of cranking power for the little Ninjette:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antigravity-...FSsqA9&vxp=mtr
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Old October 14th, 2016, 09:20 AM   #5
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+1 on the Li-Fe battery- you can mount it anywhere and if I'm not mistaken they can take quite a bit more abuse than a standard Pb-acid battery. They also can run as a deep cycle, but I cannot attest to how much cranking you can do on them (probably not as much as a lead-acid, but again IDK).
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Old October 14th, 2016, 12:24 PM   #6
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They work fine as long as you don't completely drain them. They charge differently which means that if you do drain them you can smoke 'em if you don't pay close attention while charging with a conventional battery charger. Ask me how I know

There are chargers designed specifically for Li-Fe batteries. Not very expensive (around $30.00) and worth it.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #7
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I want to mention the regulator/rectifier here for two reasons.

First, it's really old technology. This exact part number was used on bikes going back to at least '82. Fancy new battery chemistries may not be happy with the output from our clunky old R/R. Do a little research before you drop a ton of cash on crazy new tech to make sure you're not just burning up your money.

Second, heat is an issue. The R/R shunts away any extra power (the difference between how much the stator is making and how much your electronics are using) by converting it to heat. When it gets hotter, it gets less efficient, which makes it get even hotter, etc. If you've tucked it away from airflow, you could be heading toward electrical issues. They can fail either high or low - one way just won't charge your battery, the other can overcharge and ruin it.

The MOSFET R/R's (model FH### vs. SH###) are more efficient (so they make less heat in the first place) and less affected by heat (so they don't lose as much when they do warm up). They're electrically compatible, so a retrofit is just adapting the connectors and mounting it. They're more durable and stable, but their output still may not match what a non-standard battery likes, so you should still do your research.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
They work fine as long as you don't completely drain them. They charge differently which means that if you do drain them you can smoke 'em if you don't pay close attention while charging with a conventional battery charger. Ask me how I know

There are chargers designed specifically for Li-Fe batteries. Not very expensive (around $30.00) and worth it.
But what about the charging system in our bikes? They charge pretty heavily, would you have to pull the battery is you drained it down cranking and cranking (if, for example, you had to refill your carb bowls)?

**edit** Looks like Bill answered my question before I could post it ;-)
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Old October 14th, 2016, 12:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
But what about the charging system in our bikes? They charge pretty heavily, would you have to pull the battery is you drained it down cranking and cranking (if, for example, you had to refill your carb bowls)?
If you have to do a lot of cranking, the LiFe batteries will do fine. Of course you can drain any battery if you crank it long enough. BTW, the issue with filling float bowls is why there is a position on the fuel petcock that says "prime". It allows you to fill the float bowls without cranking the motor. (At least on the newgen bikes there is a prime position.)

Also, a characteristic of the LiFe batteries is that when they are cooler they can crank the bike a little bit slower. Not to worry though. The battery gets warmer as the eletricity gets flowing through it and it will actually crank stronger as it gets warmer.

They work fine maintaining a charge with the bike's electrical system. It's when you drain them flat or nearly flat and you need to use a battery charger to bring it back to full voltage with a regular battery charger that you can cause problems.

No matter if a battery is lead-acid or Li-Fe, any bike or car's charging system is only designed to maintain the charge on a battery that is already near full voltage anyway. They are not designed to charge a weak battery.

Invisibill is right about the MOSFET type voltage regulators being the way to go. They are better no matter what type of battery you run.

I had a diode type of voltage regulator fail in my SV650 racebike and it overcharged my LiFe battery. It would have overcharged a lead acid battery just the same. I switched to a MOSFET type regulator after that.

Last futzed with by tgold; October 14th, 2016 at 12:56 PM. Reason: added comments
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Old October 14th, 2016, 01:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
If you have to do a lot of cranking, the LiFe batteries will do fine. Of course you can drain any battery if you crank it long enough. BTW, the issue with filling float bowls is why there is a position on the fuel petcock that says "prime". It allows you to fill the float bowls without cranking the motor. (At least on the newgen bikes there is a prime position.)
Yeah I don't have a "prime" position on my petcock (2007) =( That's why I have to suck on the vacuum hose every time I drain my carbs =) Still doesn't seem to fill the bowls, but gets them started at least. =) Either that, or it DOES fill them up and I flood the motor... maybe that's why I have to crank forever when I drain my carbs and apply suction to the petcock to fill the bowls back up. I don't feel like it moves that much gas though... IDK. Guess I'll play with it next time.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 04:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
Either that, or it DOES fill them up and I flood the motor... maybe that's why I have to crank forever when I drain my carbs and apply suction to the petcock to fill the bowls back up.
It's possible that floods the engine, but if it does, the carb float valves are leaking too.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 04:15 PM   #12
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It's possible that floods the engine, but if it does, the carb float valves are leaking too.
I literally replaced them a week ago. Hope that's not the case!
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Old October 14th, 2016, 04:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
Yeah I don't have a "prime" position on my petcock (2007) =( That's why I have to suck on the vacuum hose every time I drain my carbs =) Still doesn't seem to fill the bowls, but gets them started at least. =) Either that, or it DOES fill them up and I flood the motor... maybe that's why I have to crank forever when I drain my carbs and apply suction to the petcock to fill the bowls back up. I don't feel like it moves that much gas though... IDK. Guess I'll play with it next time.
A mityvac brake bleeder pump would provide vacuum to make the fuel flow without having to crank the bike or sit there sucking on a hose.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
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A mityvac brake bleeder pump would provide vacuum to make the fuel flow without having to crank the bike or sit there sucking on a hose.
Good info. I'm cheap, however, so a it's the vacuum tube in the mouth for me. I don't really drain the carbs too often, I'm REAL close to having them dialed in perfect. Thanks for the tip, though!
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Old October 14th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickopsycho View Post
....... Either that, or it DOES fill them up and I flood the motor...
That can happen with new float valves or seats that are not perfectly clean.
If too much, it is dangerous because you could bend a connecting rod while cranking up.

Please, see this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_ca..._I_flood_it%3F
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Old October 15th, 2016, 08:20 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
You may want to consider getting a four cell Lithium-Iron battery. They're tiny and much easier to hide. Plus they weigh about a pound. I use one for my racebike.


This one has plenty of cranking power for the little Ninjette:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antigravity-...FSsqA9&vxp=mtr
Nice, I didn't know they made li-ion batteries that large. Will definately consider one, as that will make it easier to hide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisiBill View Post
I want to mention the regulator/rectifier here for two reasons.

First, it's really old technology. This exact part number was used on bikes going back to at least '82. Fancy new battery chemistries may not be happy with the output from our clunky old R/R. Do a little research before you drop a ton of cash on crazy new tech to make sure you're not just burning up your money.

Second, heat is an issue. The R/R shunts away any extra power (the difference between how much the stator is making and how much your electronics are using) by converting it to heat. When it gets hotter, it gets less efficient, which makes it get even hotter, etc. If you've tucked it away from airflow, you could be heading toward electrical issues. They can fail either high or low - one way just won't charge your battery, the other can overcharge and ruin it.

The MOSFET R/R's (model FH### vs. SH###) are more efficient (so they make less heat in the first place) and less affected by heat (so they don't lose as much when they do warm up). They're electrically compatible, so a retrofit is just adapting the connectors and mounting it. They're more durable and stable, but their output still may not match what a non-standard battery likes, so you should still do your research.
I'm thinking that's the finned aluminum box? If so, I can move it back to airflow and still keep it hidden. I'd imagine the area I have it in now holds heat pretty well. Excellent info though, that should be a nice Sunday upgrade for me one of these days.
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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:48 PM   #17
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I'm planning to relocate mine to the left side of the engine on a heat shielded bracket. But my ZZR has a full fairing to hide it !
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Old August 18th, 2019, 01:22 PM   #18
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For the Lithium batteries, do you need an upgraded Regulator/Rectifier to keep them happy? I am running a custom build on a 1995 Ninja 250 and would love to use a small battery
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Old August 18th, 2019, 03:35 PM   #19
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Hi Mark,

No need to change anything. LiFePO4 batteries's max-charge voltage is actually slightly higher than lead-acid, so using it with factory RR will result in slight undercharging. I've been using small 4-cell battery on my race bike for past 3-years. Still working just fine.

Word of caution, many of these batteries do not have over-discharge protection, so leaving lights on for more than 5-10min after stopping will damage them.

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Old August 18th, 2019, 03:53 PM   #20
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Amazing! Thanks
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