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Old April 24th, 2011, 12:55 AM   #1
Lowspeed Lowside
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turbo / turbocharger / turbocharging

I searched the forum and the wiki, but the only information I found was pretty much limited to "here's a video of a turbocharged a 250r", cool huh?

Although this thread is primarily speculative[1], we do know that many people won't be riding several weeks during the winter season, which means we have roughly seven months time to search for a practical solution.

Under the assumption[2] that our own labor is free, we have the right tools and know how to use them, the first thing we need to do is set two constraints, which I'll (rather arbitrarily) set at $1000 and 33kw. In other words, our goal is to maximize power @ $1000 or minimize cost @33kw or anything in between. I have tried to make all cost guesstimates conservative.

Suggested homework for any n00b (like me) wishing to contribute:

1. Theory (it took me ~6 hours to familiarize myself with the subject matter. I had to follow a lot of external links about stuff I didn't know beans about, freshen up my knowledge of the ideal-gas-laws, etc.):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressor_map

2. Thought-experimenting (~1 hour):

http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/Mis...s/DaiTurbo.htm

3. Find a problem that has been overlooked and propose a solution!

So far I've come to the following conclusions:
  • The GT12 turbocharger the other guys used is inappropriate for the task. According to http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/Tu.../ihi_specs.gif and http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/Mis...s/DaiTurbo.htm, I suspect (caveat: I have not been able to find a compressor map and this is the only source I found) that the RHF3 could be almost ideal. Unfortunately, I was only able to find one supplier http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/25...bocharger.html. Although they *claim* a minimum order quantity of 50 pieces @ <$210/piece, and they can only make 100 pieces per month, I very much doubt they wouldn't happily send anyone a one piece sample for $500 including shipping. If not, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are at least 50 enthusiasts among which one has enough business-sense to realize that ordering 50 @ $250 (incl. S&H) and selling them individually for $350 (excl. S&H) results in a profit of $5000. A slightly used one is/was available on eBay for $399. Guesstimated cost of the turbocharger: $400.
  • We just *might* be able to keep the high stock compression ratio, if we use commercially available gas with the highest octane rating AND manage to get really, really, really and when I say really, I in fact mean really good intercooling. One thing I've noticed about one existing solution, is that it involved cramming a minuscule 10"x10" intercooler in front (!) of the engine cooler. Whereas, I think the picture we should have in mind is two huge coolers - one on each side - in series, mounted at an angle, possibly with fins or scoops redirecting large quantities of air through them. Although this would require cutting out large portions of the side fairings, one would get a set of frame sliders gratis. :-) Guesstimated cost for the intercoolers: ~$300. Note: some suppliers are even willing to do a bit of customizing: http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?...xt=intercooler.
  • If great cooling and high octane gas is still expected to result in detonation, I think the cheapest way to reduce the compression ratio would be to adjust the cams and delay the closing of the intake valves.
  • Guesstimated weight added by turbocharger: ~10lbs.
  • Guesstimated weight added by intercoolers: ~30lbs.
  • Theoretical max. power: 75kw
  • We have ~$300 for pipes, tubes, air-filters, valves, clamps, oil-lines, 'n' other stuff like a stronger clutch.
  • Conversion to fuel injection is prohibitively expensive, so we'll need futz around with the carburetors. A lot. It would be very helpful if someone could report that Walmart is selling a suitable $20-gizmo that has a couple of plastic dials and is installed by incantation.
  • I have no clue what to do about the exhaust and how far the stock system could be pushed before it melts/explodes/gets-a-restraining-order.
  • Adding 10% weight to the bike will change the handling characteristics; I'd consider refueling every 60 miles an option.
  • Having an additional 3 gears would be nice. The fun of shifting into 9th gear at 140mph should take your mind off the fact that you virtually have no brakes to slow the bike down from 141mph and a front suspension that gives the word 'scary' a new meaning.

[1]Full disclosure: I'm a member of MENSA, so unfortunately I tend enjoy figuring out how to solve a problem much more than actually solving a problem.
[2]Eeek! I also have a degree in economics, so I'm weird *and* boring! Go figure.
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Old April 24th, 2011, 07:08 PM   #2
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intercooler considerations

Rough computation:

According to the calculator (http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/Mis...s/DaiTurbo.htm) at 23psi, an ambient temperature of 25°C and a desired post-intercooler temperature of 40°C (no detonation), we require 90% intercooling, and get a mass-flow of ~0.092kg/s. With the values: 15.0m/s (~30mph), specific weight of ambient air ~1.1kg/m³, efficiency 0.5, I compute that the cross-section of the air intake for cooling would have to be (0.092/(1-0.9)-0.092)/(15.0*1.1*0.5*)m²=0.1m². Not too big, one could even mount two of these.

Notes:
  • With the above parameters the calculator tells us that engine would be generating 75kw (caveat - see below) of power; accordingly, the values such as 171.4 cfm airflow are extreme.
  • Cooling will improve at higher speeds. Approximately 45kw of power is required to maintain a vertical speed of 15m/s for a mass of 300kg.
  • 0.10m²~12"x13". Reference: a 0.18m² intercooler designed for (I think) a 240kw (2G) Mitsubishi Eclipse is 22lbs. (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/23...showimage.html) shrinking two dimensions by 1/3 would result in a device that weighs ~10lbs.
  • A Kawasaki 650r weighs 440lbs. and costs ~$7000
  • According to Bell Intercoolers (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/aachart125.html) an intercooler designed for 171cfm airflow (part no. A125071060) is only 1.25" x 7.10" x 6.00" and claim typical efficiency of 60%-70% (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/page...AQ.html#FAQ_14). I compute that a pair of these mounted in series could result in a combined efficiency of 84%-91%. The size would indicate a very high efficiency of heat transfer to ambient air (much better than the 0.5 assumed above), but of course they might also be assuming that you're travelling at 120 mph. At $141/piece even a pair of these would be within the allotted budget.
  • At 1.5 psi boost and 60% intercooling the calculator tells us we're generating a whopping 36kw - but that cannot be right. Maybe there's a bug and the output is in hp (but only when boosted). In any case, we'll definitely need a better calculator/simulator before even considering to spend actual cash.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 03:13 PM   #3
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The reason why there's a single intercooler and not a twin set up is because you have to have the intercooler facing forward. There's not enough surface area of the face of the bike to mount any such twin intercooler setup.

The other factor you haven't discussed is the problem of the stock components. A carb setup wouldn't work with a turbo efficiently. When the turbo creates pressure, you would need tons of fuel. When it's not making +pressure, all that fuel in a carb setup will cause the engine to run rich. This is primarily why EFI is required for a turbo setup. It's why you will find old carb'ed muscle cars with superchargers and not turbochargers.

I can't imagine anyone running 23psi into a 250 engine. I won't say it's not possible, but the chances of the engine surviving more than a single run wouldn't be high. You would need to lower compression to run high boost. If you can reliably make X amount of HP at 12psi and retain the stock compression ratio, that would be easier than having custom pistons made to lower the CR so you can run more boost and make the same power as X @ 12psi.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 05:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
The reason why there's a single intercooler and not a twin set up is because you have to have the intercooler facing forward. There's not enough surface area of the face of the bike to mount any such twin intercooler setup.
The upright width of our ninjette is measured from mirror-tip to mirror-tip and clearance is limited by our exhaust-system. Honestly, I'd be more concerned about drag than space.

More importantly, from what I've read, the main reason to use a single or a parallel intercooler setup (always!!! - according to one source) is that connecting intercoolers in series results in doubling the loss of boost (which, hopefully, can be traded-off against better cooling). But, I think we'd be within the constraints, even if the compressor generates 12 psi and we lose 8psi in the coolers and we'd be getting 4psi of boost. Note, that I'm not making any claim that this is in any conceivable way optimal if one wishes to generate lots of power.

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Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
The other factor you
Wrong pronoun! You meant to say 'we', right? Welcome aboard!

Quote:
haven't discussed is the problem of the stock components. A carb setup wouldn't work with a turbo efficiently.
Isn't this is getting a little too far ahead? I think we should use the reasoning that once we actually have 50 inefficiently turbocharged ninjettes with comparable setups, we'll very likely have 50 owners willing to do a lot of experimenting. Remember, the uncharged stock system isn't tuned to deliver maximum power, either.

Quote:
When the turbo creates pressure, you would need tons of fuel. When it's not making +pressure, all that fuel in a carb setup will cause the engine to run rich. This is primarily why EFI is required for a turbo setup. It's why you will find old carb'ed muscle cars with superchargers and not turbochargers.
While EFI makes (efficient) turbocharging (much) easier, it's not a requirement, see e.g. http://www.olskoolrodz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32873.

As a reminder, it's safe to assume that none of the problems we need to address has an obvious solution. Which is exactly what makes it so exciting! Keep in mind that our ingenuity is primarily limited by our willingness to make huge fools of ourselves and I'm willing to bet that your problem-solving abilities are actually much better than you think.

Quote:
I can't imagine anyone running 23psi into a 250 engine. I won't say it's not possible, but the chances of the engine surviving more than a single run wouldn't be high. You would need to lower compression to run high boost. If you can reliably make X amount of HP at 12psi and retain the stock compression ratio, that would be easier than having custom pistons made to lower the CR so you can run more boost and make the same power as X @ 12psi.
Very true. Of course you're talking to someone who'd have bet his bottom dollar that you can't successfully drag-race a minivan with a couple of really cheap modifications....

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.turbominivan.com/
[...]maintain a proper air/fuel ratio and you can run 25+ pounds of boost on the stock block, crank, rods, and pistons!
Fortunately, I don't drag-race a Z-28 and all I could have lost is all my money. Which, come to think of it is rather interesting, because I previously thought I had more money than pride. Live and learn!
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Old April 25th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
While EFI makes (efficient) turbocharging (much) easier, it's not a requirement, see e.g. http://www.olskoolrodz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32873.
If you have never ran a turbo carbed vehicle, then trust me its NOT FUN. I ran several bugs that way. Sooner or later they all saw mega squirt.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #6
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Unfortunately the bottom end of the EX-250 engine isn't up to the demands your plan will place upon it. It just isn't designed to handle that much horsepower.

Here's a bit of information from the bike's past: There's a man out there named Mike Norman who was known to be an absolute genius with motorcycle engines. He worked for a company called G Force (he may still work for that company, I don't know).

Mike Norman at G Force built race motors adhering to production AFM rules, meaning stock exhaust, airbox, and carbs. Even with these limitations Mike's EX-250 engines developed enough horsepower to easily overwhelm the rather fragile EX250 bottom end. After destroying a large number of cranks and bearings, he eventually (nearly) perfected the process. But they were still small bombs waiting to go off. There is an inherent limit to what you can pump through a Ninja 250, and from hundreds, if not thousands, of dyno runs, Mike would tell you that the upper limit is in the high 30s of rear wheel HP.

A super/turbo/nuke EX-250 would easily exceed that limit (I noticed one of your estimates had this turbo EX-250 engine making 75kw. Holy crap! That's over 100hp). It should also be noted that the (non-super/turbo/atomic) combination of engine tricks Mike developed for his EX-250 G Force racing engines cost thousands of dollars per unit in parts and machine shop hours to implement, including his super-secret tweaks to the oil system that were necessary just to keep it from grenading right away; it wasn't a simple matter of bolting on a few parts or overboring the engine.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 07:04 PM   #7
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If you have never ran a turbo carbed vehicle, then trust me its NOT FUN. I ran several bugs that way. Sooner or later they all saw mega squirt.
Boostzombie is talking good sense here and besides that he's also touched on an issue I was thinking about mentioning: If you're interested in tackling something technical on an EX-250 you could create a simple to install, well documented, well integrated fuel injection kit for the bike. That would get the EX-250 community's attention (rather than a one-time stunt like a turbo-intercooled bike).
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Old April 25th, 2011, 07:27 PM   #8
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Running a carbed-turbo vehicle sucks. Ya, there were some factory carb-turbo set ups out there, so it is possible, but really not a good idea. In fact, it is easier to switch to fuel injection and then turbo (experience with a BMW 2002).

Also, if it were the least bit of a good idea someone would have already done it. There are some crazy guys over in other countries that do nothing but high performance-fancy stuff with these bikes. There are also tons of American's with more money than sense. These bikes have limiting factors that just don't make it a feasible idea. 130 width rear tire for example... They aren't super bikes, and they were never meant to be.

The engines aren't designed to hold a bunch of power. It's not like strapping a supercharger to a 350, it's more like hooking an air compressor on full blast up to a party balloon. Something has to give.

With all this new found horsepower you (we) are going to need a stiffer frame, larger front tire (read wider rim and new forks/front end) and a larger rear tire (read wider rim and wider swingarm). So by the time you get an engine you can boost and all of the ancillary items to keep the bike physically together and stable.... you don't have a Ninja 250 anymore.


There are the negatives. Now to address some of the issues...

Drag shouldn't be a big deal with an intercooler up front. The bike is small. Bigger bikes do 170mph with no aerodynamic issues. As long as it is sitting in front of the radiator and not hanging off the side of the bike it should be fine. Another problem to worry about it heat soak. Once that intercooler gets heat soaked, say goodbye to your coolant temps. On a side note, the Subaru WRX STi has an intercooler sprayer which works very well.

Megasquirt is your best friend.


If you do end up running boost, I wouldn't do more than a couple 3 psi. The heads and head bolts aren't exactly the best engineered pieces in the world. The bottom end has already been mentioned. These motors are alot like glorified Briggs and Stratton go-cart motors (which I used to build and race).

If you want a cool project, go for it. If you really want to make power out of these motors, there are easier and better ways.

Good luck!
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Old April 25th, 2011, 08:12 PM   #9
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While your numbers are nice. 33kw is much more attainable. A 70+ motor wouldn't last very long and would need the internals built. Realistic cost of the build $3000+

Exhaust, jets, filters, trans bearings, ignition apx $1000 also apx 33hp
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Old April 25th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #10
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I am in the planning stage of a turbo.
Right now I use nitrous.The bike went 119 mph at Maxton last month with just a test shot. I go back in two weeks.
I am not some nut job throwing money around or talking smack. This is my idea of a hobby.I have been doing it for four years.

I am using nitrous to develop the engine. I gather data on the engine by testing it at the track and the dyno. Then tear the engine down and inspect it .Then move to the next stage.
When I am done I plan to use nitrous and a turbo. Strictly for Land speed racing. I have no idea how much power it will make .But this is what I know so far.
First... Carb + turbo is no good for my purposes. Because when you boost air through the carb it cannot handle the drastic fuel requirement going from vacuum to boost .It will always be out of tune somewhere.
If you try to pull fuel through a turbo and make a wet system. Two problems come up .One is the inter cooler will cause the fuel particles to fall out of suspension.Second is putting an explosive mixture of air and fuel under pressure in a pipe next to my leg is not my thing.

The whole engine has to be built for this. I have a set of Carrillo rods custom made .Next is ARP studs that hold the case together and the head and block down.Studs have a much higher strength then bolts. After that its custom pistons and cams, cylinder head and crank work that will change oil clearance and balance. I will use the balance shaft because of the 14500 RPM I want.
Then there is the head and special coatings that I am not going into.
The main thing is a master machinist to build the engine.This is not some back yard build.

As for the system .Micro squirt and a VERY small turbo . The exhaust pulses are very small with the 250 Ninja engine and getting the turbo as close to the head as possible is the first order of business. The inter cooler will be custom made and v shaped to fill in the area behind the front wheel so it will be close to the turbo but not affect the overall aerodynamics of the bike.

I want to mount the throttle body on the inlet of the turbo.Then up at the intake manifolds there will be a 500cc plenum. The injectors for the fuel will be in the head and the nitrous injectors will be in the manifolds.I have not gotten compression, boost, timing or any of that down .I will start with a conservative approach and build from there. This is not a street engine at all . It will be made for Bonneville Salt flat and the asphalt tracks on the east coast. I also will need to run it on methanol.As I said this is still in the planning stage things may change .

I will run nitrous till October then start building .I plan to spend nine months on the build. Money is no object since I have none. I have paid for Most of the engine already. But the rest will be done bit by bit .
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Old April 25th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo0stZomb13 View Post
If you have never ran a turbo carbed vehicle, then trust me its NOT FUN. I ran several bugs that way. Sooner or later they all saw mega squirt.
Problems duly noted. I also note that it IS possible. Can you give us some specifics on what you think was not fun? I hope you realize that different people have different ideas of fun. I, for example, like having to warm up the engine before it starts - I enjoy the anticipation of riding at least as much as riding itself. Also, you appear to be the ideal person to think about a quick/cheap "FUN: YES/NO" solution for a turbocharged bike. I thought that opening all the valves/gates and abracadabaraing the jets/needles back to stock, would be sufficient.

Would you like to be in charge of the abracadabraing? For starters, your budget is $50. It would also be nice if we had a solution to disconnect components quickly. My bicycle has quick-release skewers, I weigh 180lbs. and I've taken curves at 45mph without the wheels falling off. I'm not even implying that this is even an embryo of a solution, but being able to take all the added bits off in 30 sec. would be a rather cool feature, in which case we'd also need an anti-theft gizmo. :-)

At this point I will be very honest: one of the reasons I don't even want to consider EFI, is that as soon as I *start* adding something that requires to be controlled by a computer, I'm afraid I'll end up with a bike that has a permanently installed tablet-PC. I'll spend more time writing software to superimpose the temperature of the electro-magnets that control valve-timing over the image of the blind-spot(s) which are monitored by small cameras (as is the rear - bye, bye mirrors! Don't get me started!), than enjoying riding.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #12
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here is the only turbo new gen I know of and its not complete.

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/l...Ninja%20250RT/
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Old April 25th, 2011, 08:39 PM   #13
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At this point I will be very honest: one of the reasons I don't even want to consider EFI, is that as soon as I *start* adding something that requires to be controlled by a computer, I'm afraid I'll end up with a bike that has a permanently installed tablet-PC.
I wasn't suggesting you re-invent an ECU for an EX-250 fuel injection system, the Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt ECU will do quite nicely. I was thinking of all the other items that you need for fuel injection.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ztrack157 View Post
here is the only turbo new gen I know of and its not complete.

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/l...Ninja%20250RT/
Matt
Do you know what they are doing for a cutch? I am holding for now but up to 60 hp and it will start slipping

There is a full finished system in Indonesia. It makes about fifty HP.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #15
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@all: big thanks for all the replies

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl View Post
Also, if it were the least bit of a good idea someone would have already done it.
If that were true, we'd still be using candles, I mean: torches, I mean: rely on moonlight.

Quote:
With all this new found horsepower you (we) are going to need a stiffer frame, larger front tire (read wider rim and new forks/front end) and a larger rear tire (read wider rim and wider swingarm). So by the time you get an engine you can boost and all of the ancillary items to keep the bike physically together and stable.... you don't have a Ninja 250 anymore.
The main misunderstanding is that you, like many others seem to think a turbocharged ninjette is/should be equivalent to a 600cc sportbike.

Keep in mind, that you'll always be able to ride in a way that will exceed the limits of what your motorcycle can do. For example, if you're going to attempt a U-turn with a radius of 30 feet @ 65mph on a ZX-6R you're going to be in much, much more trouble than cruising @ 130mph on a long, empty, straight, smooth, clean street with a turbocharged Ninjette.

Quote:
Drag shouldn't be a big deal with an intercooler up front. The bike is small. Bigger bikes do 170mph with no aerodynamic issues. As long as it is sitting in front of the radiator and not hanging off the side of the bike it should be fine. Another problem to worry about it heat soak. Once that intercooler gets heat soaked, say goodbye to your coolant temps.
Which is exactly why I don't think intercoolers should be put it in-front of the radiator and drag could represent a problem. Anybody willing to think about whether a spring-loading mechanism for the intercoolers can be made for $20? The idea would be that they fold back at speed and guarantee constant airflow...

Quote:
If you do end up running boost, I wouldn't do more than a couple 3 psi. The heads and head bolts aren't exactly the best engineered pieces in the world. The bottom end has already been mentioned. These motors are alot like glorified Briggs and Stratton go-cart motors (which I used to build and race).
In your experience, what gives up its ghost first? The head? Or the head-bolts? Remember we have a very limited budget, so it would be nice to know which part is the most likely to fail first, in which case there might be a cheap way to monitor it. If it's a bolt, is it feasible to modify one and treat it as a safety fuse? Probably not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
I wasn't suggesting you re-invent an ECU for an EX-250 fuel injection system, the Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt ECU will do quite nicely. I was thinking of all the other items that you need for fuel injection.
I think you entirely missed the point!

Programmable Engine Control

Now, how cool is that!

Unfortunately, there is so much interesting stuff to do and so little time to do it. For example, a Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt ECU is $250 (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...v22-p-381.html), whereas a tracfone with much more powerful hardware is $10 (http://www.tracfone-orders.com/bpdir...sionId=9428759). Taking the phone apart is free, solder is 2c, electronic parts are $2, putting linux on it is free, writing a driver is free. If you don't rev up the engine 2x long and 1x time short within 10 seconds of ignition, make the engine play Yankee-Doodle-Dandy! Or make flames shoot out of the exhaust, in case you need a lighter! Arrrrgh! The possibilities! Stop teasing me!

Back on-topic...

I'm having a hard time accurately modeling intercooler behavior. The difficulty is that the compressed air cools gradually, therefore some parts of the intercooler will be cooler than others.

We know that there is thermal conduction within the material of the intercooler, i.e. the hotter parts are slightly cooled and the cooler parts are slightly heated, which is why two coolers in series connected by a thermal insulator should provide better cooling, than the same two coolers connected in parallel, at the cost of decreased boost. What we don't know is how a pair intercoolers X by manufacturer Y will behave at Z psi, W cfm and T° - I hate that.

Quote:
It should also be noted that the (non-super/turbo/atomic) combination of engine tricks Mike developed for his EX-250 G Force racing engines cost thousands of dollars per unit in parts and machine shop hours to implement, including his super-secret tweaks to the oil system that were necessary just to keep it from grenading right away; it wasn't a simple matter of bolting on a few parts or overboring the engine.
I do not doubt that Mike Norman is an top-notch expert on motorcycle engines in general and has lots of experience with the EX250 in specific, and we do learn a lot about Mike Norman's upper limit, but - I know this sounds rather arrogant - it makes immediate sense to treat Mike Norman's upper limit as our theoretical lower limit: we definitely know that 35-40hp at the rear wheel is doable.

Also, I don't think you have considered that as a group we might have a big edge over Mike. Not all EX250 engines are created equal, so if the maximum power we can get out of the average EX250 engine is X and the standard variation is Y, (Warning! Gaussian! I assume too much!) we'd expect 1 in ~50 engines to generate at least X+2Y and 1 in ~700 (I think) to generate at least X+3Y. Someone might even own a Goldilocks!

Last but not least, I do not think highly of people (even professionals) who like to keep tweaks super-secret. They are protecting a monopoly, which guarantees a suboptimal allocation of resources (sorry about that, but I did mention that I'm a boring economist). Real geniuses are intelligent enough to stay ahead of the curve by coming up with tweak, after tweak, after tweak...

If you consider the massive collection of cool DIY-stuff here, individually we might not be geniuses, but the DIY section generates tweak, after tweak, after tweak...
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Old April 26th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #16
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I regret getting involved in this thread.

It reads like the manic phase of a thoroughly developed bi-polar disorder.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 05:40 AM   #17
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One argument that makes a turbocharging upgrade more attractive than an EFI upgrade, is that all the other currently competing 250cc models already have stock EFI and it's somewhat likely that sometime in the near future all Ninjettes will have also have stock EFI. Furthermore, it is very likely that no 250cc bike will have a stock turbo.

Consequently, turbo-systems would remain upgrades, whereas EFI-systems would become spare parts.

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I am using nitrous to develop the engine. I gather data on the engine by testing it at the track and the dyno. Then tear the engine down and inspect it.
Can you publish an ordered list of which components showed wear or tear with increased power-output?

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As for the system .Micro squirt and a VERY small turbo . The exhaust pulses are very small with the 250 Ninja engine and getting the turbo as close to the head as possible is the first order of business. The inter cooler will be custom made and v shaped to fill in the area behind the front wheel so it will be close to the turbo but not affect the overall aerodynamics of the bike.
Presumably you've done a lot of research before choosing a suitable turbo. How much smaller is your VERY small turbo compared to an RHF3? How much does it cost?

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It reads like the manic phase of a thoroughly developed bi-polar disorder.
You completely missed the opportunity to imply a dissociative identity disorder with bi-polar and passive-aggressive alter-egos.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 06:32 AM   #18
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Head bolts are going to be weaker than the head. If you were interested in running a lot of boost maybe double up a head gasket??

As for the frame.. do you plan on going in a straight line or doing turns?

Have you decided to do efi? If not there are 2 ways to set up a carb-turbo. Blow through and draw through. You will need to decide on which you prefer.

oh, and there is nothing wrong with moonlight. In fact I hear werewolves quite prefer it. :-)
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Old April 26th, 2011, 07:11 AM   #19
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I am planning to try the RHB31 they are under 300 dollars. I use Copper head gaskets. I payed the set up charge for 2008 and newer copper headgaskets. So if you call Copper headgaskets .com as for Morty tell him you want a gasket and what thickness you want he will make it and all you pay is for the gasket. R and D charges are like 70 or 80 bucks
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Old April 26th, 2011, 07:48 AM   #20
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The lastest edition of Cycle World has an article about the turbo charged bikes of old.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 08:13 AM   #21
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How about this it uses less pipes but cost more
http://www.superpowercharger.com/electric.htm
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Old April 26th, 2011, 08:31 AM   #22
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66mp6...e_gdata_player
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Old April 26th, 2011, 10:43 AM   #23
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The smalest system is for a 2 liter engine. I contacted them to ask about using it with a 15 cubic inch motor. Let's see what they say. Thanks for the link 4000 dollars is a lot of money. But if it works that would be the main thing.
Hector are you the the guy I met in York Pa.?
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Old April 26th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #24
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You completely missed the opportunity to imply a dissociative identity disorder with bi-polar and passive-aggressive alter-egos.
About year from now I'm going to search around and find this thread (it'll be long dead and you'll be long gone from this forum). Then I'm going to give it a "bump" to get it to the top and my post will be, "Remember this guy? How Bat-sh*t crazy was he?"
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Old April 26th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #25
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I wana be in charge of abracadabring......Now, watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
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The smalest system is for a 2 liter engine. I contacted them to ask about using it with a 15 cubic inch motor. Let's see what they say. Thanks for the link 4000 dollars is a lot of money. But if it works that would be the main thing.
Hector are you the the guy I met in York Pa.?
$4000? I think you misread that! In volume they should be <$300/piece.
There is very little information on small turbochargers. I read somewhere that the RHF3 (I think the RHB31 is larger) powered a 650cc Daihatsu (diesel?) engine. 650cc @ 5000 rpm would generate the same airflow as a 250cc @ 13000. Of course, we'd still like to find something smaller, but under our budget constraints that's probably as small as it gets.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 02:13 PM   #27
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I wana be in charge of abracadabring......Now, watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat.
I know you're being sarcastic, but (to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke) any technology you don't understand is indistinguishable from magic. We have seven months for people to come up will ingenious solution that will leave you wondering:

1. That actually works?
2. Why wasn't I able to think of that?
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Old April 26th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #28
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Old April 26th, 2011, 03:01 PM   #29
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Nope
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The smalest system is for a 2 liter engine. I contacted them to ask about using it with a 15 cubic inch motor. Let's see what they say. Thanks for the link 4000 dollars is a lot of money. But if it works that would be the main thing.
Hector are you the the guy I met in York Pa.?
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Old April 26th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
$4000? I think you misread that! In volume they should be <$300/piece.
There is very little information on small turbochargers. I read somewhere that the RHF3 (I think the RHB31 is larger) powered a 650cc Daihatsu (diesel?) engine. 650cc @ 5000 rpm would generate the same airflow as a 250cc @ 13000. Of course, we'd still like to find something smaller, but under our budget constraints that's probably as small as it gets.
the RHB 31 is very small perfect for a 250 four stroke.

http://www.chinese-parts-canada.com/...injection.html

the electric supercharger is 3795 to 4500 dollars.
http://www.superpowercharger.com/spc...crusher-hv.htm

one other thing to keep in mind . Since the 250 ninja is a flat bearing engine you need to use a flat bearing turbo. If you have a ball bearing crank then you use a ball bearing turbo. I could be wrong but that is the impression I got. Still doing research at this point.
As for engine ware with nitrous . I have passed about 15 lb of nitrous 20 hp shot through my engine. Only problem so far is the clutch . I fixed that with beefer springs. I did have some engine damage but that was totally my fault . So far this year no problem .
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Old April 27th, 2011, 07:06 AM   #31
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Quote:
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the RHB 31 is very small perfect for a 250 four stroke.

http://www.chinese-parts-canada.com/...injection.html
I remember seeing that! I think the RHF3 and RHB31 might actually be very similar. Too bad we can't find compressor maps, so that we can compare them.

I'm not convinced that bolting on the turbo as close as possible to the engine is necessarily optimal. While it is true that we are trying to avoid cooling off the air and wish to preserve the pulses, I think it is worthwhile to consider using two straight pipes (with 125cc volume each), before we merge and direct into the turbine. The idea is that we leave enough room for the exhaust pulse to go so that we avoid closing the exhaust valve with hot, compressed exhaust gases still trapped in the chamber. If fear that would aid detonation and decrease the amount of unburnt fuel that can go into the camber the next cycle.

Something else ... a KP35 could fit your purposes, maybe better. If you look at the compressor map



you can see that at 1.2 bar overpressure (16 PSI) and 0.56l/sec (120bfm) you're splat in the middle of the efficiency island, (maybe ~40-50kw). It's $243 shipped (http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs...olesalers.html)

For our <$1000 experiment the KP35 is possibly a little too big. Could be good for a non-aggressively souped-up Ninja 375R?

Quote:
Only problem so far is the clutch . I fixed that with beefer springs. I did have some engine damage but that was totally my fault . So far this year no problem .
What springs did you use? We're on a budget and will need a cheap source. $10 here, $10 there, adds up quickly.

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Just out of curiosity: if the necessity of a group order arises, would you be interested in owning a turbocharger-shaped paperweight, that just might have a motorcycle-related purpose?
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Old April 27th, 2011, 08:22 AM   #32
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Eric, I'm curious why the bearing in the engine would dictate what kind of bearing a turbo would need?
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Old April 27th, 2011, 08:35 AM   #33
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Eric, I'm curious why the bearing in the engine would dictate what kind of bearing a turbo would need?
It makes about as much sense as anything else that's been posted so far in this thread. Don't interrupt, he's on a roll......
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Old April 27th, 2011, 09:06 AM   #34
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I'm pretty sure the only difference is the seals. Ie carbon seal vs not. Then that only matters if you have a draw through setup.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 10:38 AM   #35
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Like I said I am not 100 % sure. But I believe the ball bearing crank engines have different oil pressure and volume than plain bearing cranks.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
I know you're being sarcastic, but (to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke) any technology you don't understand is indistinguishable from magic. We have seven months for people to come up will ingenious solution that will leave you wondering:

1. That actually works?
2. Why wasn't I able to think of that?
Thanks for paraphrasing my paraphrase.
Now watch me make the Sears Tower................. disappear.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #37
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Okk I. Made some calls and talked to some people that do this for real. Bottom line. Ask the manufactuer of the turbo the oil pressure requierments of whatever type of turbo you use. If you have to much oil pressure the oil will push past the seal .running oil into the engine. That will cause detonation quick and hole a piston . Not enough oil pressure and the boost can cause the oil to push back because sone ceramic bearings need oilpressure to seal . It is something to check that it all.
Now back to the fun
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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:25 AM   #38
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Like I said I am not 100 % sure. But I believe the ball bearing crank engines have different oil pressure and volume than plain bearing cranks.
I've never seen an engine with ball bearings. Anyhow, an engine doesn't dictate what kind of bearing a turbo has. From personal experience, on a mitsubishi 3000gt, which uses standard bearings, the oem turbos use journal bearings. However, there are many 3000gt's/stealths out there that have upgraded to using ball bearing turbos.

In either instance, the same oil pump is used and it doesn't affect the turbo. I'm a noob when it comes to these 250 motors so I don't know much about them. I would suspect that since they are able to rev 2x as high as most cars, the oiling isn't going to be a big issue. The oil capacity may change to include some for the turbo, but I don't see there being an issue from using journal or ball bearing turbos on the 250. The question is how do you get the oil circulating thru the turbo from the oil pump? Does the 250 use a dry or wet sump system?
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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #39
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My 2 cents...

Most gasoline engines can't handle much more than double their stock horsepower assuming a volumetric efficiency of 70-80% with a maximum volumetric efficiency of about 140-160% before things start to blow and give.

The 250 has a volumetric efficiency of 128% which means it probably can't handle much more than another 30% increase in efficiency without doing a complete rebuild of the motor from the ground up.

I highly doubt Kawasaki built it any stronger then what they expected it to be used for.

Though I 100% believe you can turbo the carbed 250 I 100% believe you will need around 4-6 grand to even come close to the numbers you want.

Feasibly on a stock motor I don't see much more than 40whp before your engine blows.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:35 AM   #40
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Okk I. Made some calls and talked to some people that do this for real. Bottom line. Ask the manufactuer of the turbo the oil pressure requierments of whatever type of turbo you use. If you have to much oil pressure the oil will push past the seal .running oil into the engine. That will cause detonation quick and hole a piston . Not enough oil pressure and the boost can cause the oil to push back because sone ceramic bearings need oilpressure to seal . It is something to check that it all.
Now back to the fun
For a journal bearing turbo, the only "seal" is the bearing itself. It uses no internal seals. They're just machined to extremely tight tolerances. The turbos can withstand enormous amounts of pressure, at least 70psi. The reason why oil can push past the bearing is if the shaft is out of balance and begins to wear down the bearing. This will push the oil into the exhaust, not the intake.

If you look in this cutout of a ball bearing turbo you'll notice the compressor side has nothing except a backing plate. When it's assembled, there's a stupid strong snap-ring that holds that in place and keeps oil from entering the intake. The only way oil is going to push past it is if the shaft has lateral play, in which case, the turbo is likely about to give up the ghost.

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