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Old May 22nd, 2019, 07:36 AM   #1
trucnh
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Turbo charger build

Hi friends,

I am an automation guy but I love the mechanical modding very much.
At beginning of May, I started a small project to build the turbocharger for my bike:

- Using the VZ21 turbocharger and a BOV
- Tuning by using the Power Commander V with a MAP sensor

But during the modding, some issues were found and I need your advice.
I show each steps what I did and also the stuck points, pls help.
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 07:54 AM   #2
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I used 2 pipes - 27mm diameter - to make the exhaust manifold to mount the turbo.





Used 49mm diameter pipe to make the dump pipe
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 08:08 AM   #3
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The next is the intake air pipe (I removed the original air filter box)
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 08:19 AM   #4
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There are 03 points which I need to support that:

1. Where is the right position of MAP sensor to connect the vacuum pipe. Does it need to drill a hole on the throttle body to connect the vacuum pipe at there?

2. Also the vaccum pipe of BOV, i tried to find the diagram on web but not found so far..

3. Boost gauge, which gauge could be use and how to connect the gauge?
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 11:20 AM   #5
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i may not be of any help to you, i work on turbo diesel engines. intake manifold pressure, aka boost pressure is usually measured from the intake manifold. now days the cars pcm subtracts absolute manifold pressure to barometric pressure to give you a boost reading.
and the MAP, you are talking about Manifold Absolute Pressure right? are you wanting to run a boost gauge that reads you boost level, or actual manifold pressure? which would be boost pressure plus atmospheric pressure, plus or minus depending on engine load and throttle position.

i like your build, looking good, and tidy
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 08:27 PM   #6
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Dear @gantt,

Thank for your reply.
Yes, i want to read the boost pressure, but before i don't know what is the right position to connect the pipe of gauge, i intended connect it to the plenum. Is it ok for pressure reading of gauge?

About the MAP sensor, yes, Manifold Absolute Pressure, i used a 2.5bar MAP sensor in order to use Power Commander 5 tune based on this sensor data. I also got advice from Jerry Schoenauer from Dynojet about this application. But the question that where is the position to install the sensor, i think about the position after the butterfly of Throttle Body.

Could you please look to the below diagram, advice me more with thank.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 07:45 AM   #7
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i think, to get an accurate reading for boost pressure, you should put your sensor after the throttle body, since that will give you a more true reading for the pressure of air entering the engine. i am not 100% sure, since diesel engines do not have throttle bodies, well, new ones do, but only for emissions reasons. older diesels do not have any sort of throttle body.
i wish someone with gas engine turbo knowledge could help you, i would hate to give you bad information.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 08:15 AM   #8
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chào anh truc! You did some very good work!

Quote:
1. Where is the right position of MAP sensor to connect the vacuum pipe. Does it need to drill a hole on the throttle body to connect the vacuum pipe at there?

2. Also the vaccum pipe of BOV, i tried to find the diagram on web but not found so far..

3. Boost gauge, which gauge could be use and how to connect the gauge?
All of these vacuum inputs should come from intake-manifold between throttle-butterfly and intake-valves. Yes, you should drill hole in each throttle-body to get manifold-pressure and join them into one pipe to combine pulses from each cylinder. Then split them to each device: MAP sensor, BOV and boost gauge. Like this picture:



You can use this 5-way air manifold to join and split the vacuum signal. This may not be enough inside volume (space) to join between cylinders and blend signal. Might need larger body of at least 100cc. Test and graph MAP-sensor signal from PowerCommander. If it has lots of pulses up and down, you will need larger body.

This may be used for boost-gauge. Mount somewhere high and visible.

Don't use BOV, it dumps your boost to atmosphere when you shift and makes your turbo slow down. This causes turbo-lag after shifting. You have to wait for turbo to build boost again. Better to use CBV - compressor bypass valve. This dumps boost from turbo-outlet back to turbo-inlet. This keeps turbo spinning when shifting and no turbo-lag.

Put side of valve into compressor-outlet and bottom of valve into compressor-inlet.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 08:23 AM   #9
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Did you braze exhaust manifold to turbo flange with brass?



Exhaust can get very, very hot at full-throttle. Temperatures can be over 800-C and will melt the brass. Better to TIG weld that joint with E70S2 steel filler rod.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 09:59 AM   #10
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Dear @DannoXYZ,

There are no words to show my appreciation your help. You are so kind, thank you for the time you spent to advice me very very detail: drawing, show me where to buy the item... it is very great!
I will order the items you said and update to the build.

About the exhaust manifold, yes, i will fix it by re-welding.

Thank you again
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 07:46 PM   #11
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không có chi
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Old May 26th, 2019, 10:31 PM   #12
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Hi friends, in order to take the vacuum from Throttle Body, I checked the throttle body to find the position to drill for pipe connection.
But I found that there are 02 small pipe with covered by rubber plug, have no pipe connection, please see below picture. I wondered that what is the purpose of these 2 pipes? Can I connect to these pipe to take the vacuum as above diagram?

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Old May 27th, 2019, 03:15 PM   #13
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Those ports are used to synchronise two butterfly valves to have same opening. Verify those ports go into throttle-body AFTER butterfly valves. Also measure your combined vacuum-reading at idle, should be 20-24 in•Hg (~30 kpa) at idle. If so, yes, that's good source for intake-manifold vacuum.

You can use your boost-gauge to measure intake-manifold vacuum at idle.

What is your target HP? Boost?
What size injectors will you use?
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Old May 28th, 2019, 03:41 AM   #14
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With the setup, i will use the old Throttle Body, jut there 02 things which i think to compensate the fuel to reach optimal AFR:

1. Fuel pump is enough, i checked my 300 found that its spec is 50ml/3 seconds, it is too high (in my opinion). So I checked the 1000, in his service manual, it is the same flow rate- 50ml/3 seconds.

2. Injector:
As I know i some places on the Web, maximum HP of a 250-turbo modded and reached 59 HP on dyno. So I used this number for calculation as at 59HP

So I calculated the flow rate of injectors by this formula:
59 HP x BSFC Turbo 0,65 / 2 cylinders' injectors/ 0.8 duty cycle = 24 lb/hr = approx 252 cc/min.
I tried to find the specs of current injector (EAT-811) and the 1000 (INP-289) to recheck the replacement by still not find data so far.

Could you please advice about calculation, pls correct me if I wrong some thing.

P/S: I welded 02 bungs on the exhaust dump pipe:
- 01 for the Oxygen sensor to monitor AFR by AFR gauge
- 01 for wide band Oxygen sensor in Autotune set from Dynojet (install later)


Last futzed with by trucnh; May 30th, 2019 at 12:12 AM.
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Old May 28th, 2019, 04:15 PM   #15
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You should also get ignition-module for PCV

Ok, with 59hp target... ((59/39)-1)*14.5 = 7.4 psi boost with adiabatic compression. Since that does not exist, I recommend an intercooler.

Very good with your fuel-calculations! I think injector flow is:

EAT-811 = 175cc/min @ 43psi
INP-288 = 200cc/min @ 43psi (2008 ZX-6R)
INP-250 = 235cc/min @ 43psi (2003-04 R6)

One problem with larger injectors is minimum pulse-width at idle. Using factory computer and PCV means you cannot program actual pulse-width at idle. The PCV alters factory MAP-sensor output into smaller value and tricks factory computer into into thinking airflow is different than real. But... ECU still uses factory 3D-map and at smallest idle data-cell, pulse-width will still be same. You may end up with stumbling unstable idle.

Better solution is to re-program/re-flash factory ECU and actually change the value stored in idle data-cell rather than trying to shift it into lower-load area.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 12:04 AM   #16
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Update the build - date: 30-05-2019

To reduce the lubrication oil temperature, also to have a position for temperature sensor to monitor the temperature of it, i tried to buy the sandwich adapter on the market to connect to a radiator. With 02 purchasing with 2 type of adapters, all of them could not fit to the position of Kawa oil filter due to bigger dimension of adapter (adapter =76-80mm <> space of location diameter 67mm). So I decided to make a custom sandwich adapter. Just finished.. it look so ok but its weigh seem not ok.. 999.8 g

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Old May 30th, 2019, 02:14 PM   #17
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Ah very good. Coming along nicely.
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Old June 4th, 2019, 05:13 AM   #18
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Update the build - date: 04-06-2019

Make up the sandwich adapter with black painting.
Try to finish connection between the turbo set and the custom sandwich adapter for oil returned pipe


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Old June 4th, 2019, 04:45 PM   #19
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That may not be good for turbo oil outlet, which is not pressurised. Both sides of oil-filter has pressure, the inlet and outlet. This will prevent turbo from draining oil through. Best to tap return port into oil pan above oil level to give zero-pressure area to drain oil. ID of drain tube should be at least 14mm





Also turbo oil-feed is very low-pressure, low-volume. Should use an inline filter with 3mm restrictor. Too much oil pressure and volume at turbo inlet will cause oil leaks to outside of turbo and into intake.

http://www.forcedperformance.net/fp-...ilter-214.html
https://stmtuned.com/products/forced...bearing-turbos
http://speedtrappconsulting.com/STC%...20Oil%20Filter

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Old June 6th, 2019, 05:11 PM   #20
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Thank you @DannoXYZ, removed the outlet pipe line to sandwich adapter

It is so lucky when i find out a damaged 5-2 valve, and this is the result:



Coolant inlet and outlet (i have intent to install a small fuel pump in the coolant pipe inlet)

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Old June 6th, 2019, 08:05 PM   #21
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That turbo has strangest water flange! Good job!

I tried using Bosch fuel-pump to drive port water-injectors. It didn't work too well. I recommemd you test your fuel-pump with two-hoses and pumping water into and out of same bucket. If it works OK for 24-hr test, it might OK on bike to cool turbo then.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 08:47 AM   #22
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Some updates:

1. The first testing for oil feeding to turbo:
- Oil feeding with an AN3 size brass pipe is perfect.
- Oil outlet pipe got a big trouble due to outlet is lower than oil pan level, it always full of oil inside the pipeline==> I consider to install a small diaphragm pump to transfer drainage oil back to engine, take the engine air suction pipe to run this pump

2. Vacuum distribution box is tested, quite good.

3. For injector upgrading, i am looking for new solution with AIC (instead of replacing bigger injector and Power Commander V)

[URL="https://splitsec.com/product/aic2-p-additional-injector-controller-pressure-mode/"]
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 03:06 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trucnh View Post
Some updates:

1. The first testing for oil feeding to turbo:
- Oil feeding with an AN3 size brass pipe is perfect.
- Oil outlet pipe got a big trouble due to outlet is lower than oil pan level, it always full of oil inside the pipeline==> I consider to install a small diaphragm pump to transfer drainage oil back to engine, take the engine air suction pipe to run this pump

2. Vacuum distribution box is tested, quite good.

3. For injector upgrading, i am looking for new solution with AIC (instead of replacing bigger injector and Power Commander V)

[URL="https://splitsec.com/product/aic2-p-additional-injector-controller-pressure-mode/"]
Good work!

Don't do AIC, that's 1980s technology! You also need to program new ignition map. Reduce full-throttle ignition-advance by 5-10 degrees while leaving idle and partial-throttle/low-RPM ignition stock. Using 3D mapping of ignition (load X RPM) is much more accurate than factory 2D map.

Get replacement aftermarket programmable EFI system. Look up greg737's excellent EFI conversions. Use EFI system from Accel DFI, Austronic, Electromotive TEC, Haltech, LinkECU, Megasquirt, MoTeC, SDSefi, Wolfe 3D, etc

Megasquirt is best value EFI system. Controls both fuel and ignition with 3D-mapping. Plenty of on-line support from large installed base of users. Someone probably already has maps for Ninja 250+turbo and all you need to do is download it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005OS5CDS

Some sites with great info and support on Megasquirt:
DIYautotune.com
MegaManual.com
MSefi.com
MSextra.com


I've blown up plenty of turbo engines by trying to keep factory EFI system and use piggyback systems on top. Very wasteful of time and money. Now my first upgrade is programmable EFI system, even on factory engine with no mods. Good for +10% increase in power immediately and smoother running with optimized maps.

Remember: cheap/powerful/reliable. Pick any two, but you can't have all three.
also: "There's never enough time to do it right first time, but there's always time to do it again!!!".

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 2nd, 2019 at 10:25 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2019, 08:26 AM   #24
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Megasquirt, it is so complicated
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Old July 24th, 2019, 11:25 AM   #25
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Very nice. Very nice.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 09:25 PM   #26
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Notes for 31th July:

After assembly the PCB v3.0 of MSII, i found it don't have the built-in ignition module

It is to late to place another order for this module, i decided to buy the prototype PCB and IC to do it by myself ==> Will update this item

==========
For other hardware setting:

1. Crank shaft signal input ==> As I understood the original sensor of my bike is a kind of VR sensor with 2 wires, so i will set up the MSII for VR sensor.

2. Ignition coil ==> Part number of DENSO 129700-5430, so with the ignition module i am going to set up with 2 BIP373 to control 2 ignition coils. But i will built the board have spare connections of 6 ignition coils if i reuse this MSII for other

3. Communication port of MSII is quite old model with RS-232 standard. I will change to bluetooth with breakboard BT

4. 2 CAN ports for other communication.
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Old August 1st, 2019, 11:24 AM   #27
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Hey, great progress!

Another ignition option is coil-on-plug with built-in igniters like LS coils. These can be triggered by low-level outputs of MS. You won't need high-power outputs from MS that way. Avoid LS1 coils as they have buggy igniter that fires prematurely. Newer LS6 coils will work.
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Old August 2nd, 2019, 06:43 PM   #28
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Thank you Danno,

I will build 02 options for Ignition board: 01 for High current coil and 01 for LS Coil as your comments.
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Old August 5th, 2019, 01:51 PM   #29
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Notes for 06/08/2019:

Design of Ignition PCB have 02 options with both High Current and LS Coil: it is done.
After check all the I/O, to save the MSII resources. I decided that I build for 4 coils output only.



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Old August 5th, 2019, 06:12 PM   #30
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That's amazing! I'm going to use that for one of my auto builds!
Cảm ơn!
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Old August 8th, 2019, 08:27 PM   #31
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Hi Danno,

I'm making the harness, connected DB-37 connector of MSII to the current harness on the bike, but some issues are arise:

01. It is could not cut out the exits Denso ECU and replace completely by MSII ECU because a lot of inputs is connected to this Denso ECU (such as Motor Down Sensor, Starter Switch,...)

02. There are 04 wires for Sub Throttle Valve Actuator, how to treat this actuator by Megasquirt, do you have any advice?

Thanks

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Old August 10th, 2019, 07:21 AM   #32
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Back to above problem of Oil drainage line:

" Oil outlet pipe got a big trouble due to outlet is lower than oil pan level, it always full of oil inside the pipeline==> I consider to install a small diaphragm pump to transfer drainage oil back to engine, take the engine air suction pipe to run this pump"

Update on 10 Aug:
Small diaphragm pump took from a car's fuel pump did not work
It is solved perfectly with a electric gear pump. Drainage oil is pumped from turbo oil outlet line back to engine (Need to do an adapter at oil filling position)


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Old August 10th, 2019, 11:33 AM   #33
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Good job on oil pump!

For 300 sub-throttle bodies, a lot of people disable and leave open. Is it stepper motor or PWM that controls it? I was thinking one of general-purpose outputs used for boost-controller solenoid can be used for sub-throttle and map it to TPS position.
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Old August 11th, 2019, 01:21 AM   #34
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Plenum box to distribute the outlet air from turbo to throttle body.

Need to drill a hole for stock IAT sensor and a hole for Meqasquirt IAT sensor.

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Old August 11th, 2019, 01:37 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

For 300 sub-throttle bodies, a lot of people disable and leave open. Is it stepper motor or PWM that controls it? I was thinking one of general-purpose outputs used for boost-controller solenoid can be used for sub-throttle and map it to TPS position.
Hi Danno,
The Sub-throttle Actuator, I guess it is a stepper motor, i saw it have 4 wires- maybe 02 coils. It also have separated position sensor connected to PIN#19 Stock ECU not map to TPS Position... so I gave up about Megasquirt (Idle Air Control function) to control this output.

For next step, I will keep stock ECU parrallel with Magequirt but cut out the output of Stock ECU at:
- Injectors
- Ignition outputs

Let me see what will happen
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Old August 11th, 2019, 12:19 PM   #36
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Might better to treat sub-throttle motor as boost-control solenoid. It needs to work when throttle is opened. Whereas idle control-valve only works when throttle is closed.

Sounds like good plan to switch over injectors & ignition.

Be careful with sharing sensors as that may affect output signal. Not all ECUs use high-impedance circuit for all sensors, but employ current-sensing. A second circuit will change current.

Keep up good work!
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Old August 13th, 2019, 05:24 AM   #37
trucnh
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Update for 13 Aug:

The PCB of ignition module for Megasquirt is completed



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Old August 13th, 2019, 05:34 AM   #38
trucnh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

Be careful with sharing sensors as that may affect output signal. Not all ECUs use high-impedance circuit for all sensors, but employ current-sensing. A second circuit will change current.
Sure Danno, I limited numbers of sharing sensors, will install new sensor for MSII (waiting for delivery). These sensors will be used for both stock and MSII:
- Main TPS sensor
- Crank sensor

Below is the mapping table to connect of Stock ECU Denso and MSII
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