High Speed Braking

[akima]

I'm comfortable doing heavy braking when travelling up to 50mph. I progressively squeeze the front brake lever until it's biting as hard as I want it too and then hold it there. I don't know what extra considerations I need to make for high speed braking though. When travelling on motorways I'll be going as little as 60MPH and as high as 90MPH (indicated).

So far I haven't actually needed to touch my brakes while travelling at those high speeds. I adjust my speed using the throttle alone and only start using the brakes when I'm at 50MPH or less. At some point though I know I'm going to need to brake hard at high speed for one reason or another. Any advice for me? Do you have to be really gentle on the brakes? Any special considerations?

[massacremasses]

gradually squeeze

[alex.s]

above 100mph i like both brakes... rear brakes ease on then front brakes take over. below 100mph i do front brakes only. ease on until the nose is down then full brakes and taper off. the important thing with front brakes is not grabbing them. you want to work with the suspension not against it. once you have more weight on the front tire (from the forks compressing, from using a little gradual front brake first) the front tire will have much more traction. once it has more traction you can use much more braking force.

if you apply too much braking force before your forks are compressed and there is weight on the tire you will simply lock the front. locking the front isnt terrible... but if yoou are leaned over its pretty easy to drop it if you lock the front. if you lock the front straight up and down just let the front brake off. front brake is not like rear brake... get off the front brake if its locked.

[akima]

Seems like reasonable advice alex. Thanks

[NDspd]

I actually found the perfect spot to test out all that. I have a huge track and parking lot, the lot is self is 279,000 sq ft or 6 acres.

Took about half an hour of emergency stops, stops and turns, emergency turns, slaloms, wide circles, tight circles, super tight circles(scraping peg and boot), and u-turns.

This little session helped me out considerably, I really understand what my little ninja can do. Plus, personally I'm trying to wear my crappy IRC tires out.

[akima]

Originally Posted by NDspd

I actually found the perfect spot to test out all that. I have a huge track and parking lot, the lot is self is 279,000 sq ft or 6 acres.

Took about half an hour of emergency stops, stops and turns, emergency turns, slaloms, wide circles, tight circles, super tight circles(scraping peg and boot), and u-turns.

This little session helped me out considerably, I really understand what my little ninja can do. Plus, personally I'm trying to wear my crappy IRC tires out.

I'll keep an eye out for a place like that.

As for your tires: you may as well buy the ones you want when you have the money, but properly store your IRCs so if you damage your new ones at any point you have a backup pair that you can install even if you're tight on cash.

[outasight20]

I recently upgraded to EBC HH pads up front, so I went to a large parking lot to practice some emergency stops. The brakes are so strong that under very heavy front braking, I can feel the rear end get very light, so much so that I have to be careful not to do a stoppie. Our bikes can stop INCREDIBLY quickly once you get the proper technique down. Squeeze the lever gradually, once your front end is fully compressed, press harder and hold onto your eyeballs!

[alex.s]

akima, in a few months when its not a thundra over there, go to a track day. you'll love it.

[akima]

Now that I have a good income, I can afford to do a track day or two this year. Looking forward to it! I've heard so much positive stuff about them.

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by akima

I'll keep an eye out for a place like that.

As for your tires: you may as well buy the ones you want when you have the money, but properly store your IRCs so if you damage your new ones at any point you have a backup pair that you can install even if you're tight on cash.

If I had the cash to do so I would.

[ajcadoo]

As MSF teaches, always use both brakes so that in the emergency hazard situation: your body will automatically slow with both brakes. Also, avoid engine braking since cars behind dont know when youre slowing without that brake light!

[akima]

Originally Posted by ajcadoo

As MSF teaches, always use both brakes so that in the emergency hazard situation: your body will automatically slow with both brakes. Also, avoid engine braking since cars behind dont know when youre slowing without that brake light!

I'm currently in the "no rear brake during heavy braking"-camp, but thanks for your input Keep it coming.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ajcadoo

As MSF teaches, always use both brakes so that in the emergency hazard situation: your body will automatically slow with both brakes. Also, avoid engine braking since cars behind dont know when youre slowing without that brake light!

im also in the no-rear camp. there are specific uses for the rear brake. and heavy braking is not one of them.

fwiw im in "emergency situations" at least once a week thanks to all the idiots in california.

[akima]

@alex.s: You're one of the people that landed me in this camp The arguments I've heard for avoiding the rear brake during heavy braking are more compelling than the arguments I've heard for using the rear brake. My limited experience on the road doesn't count for much, but so far this particular camp has served me well... I've read plenty of stories on the crash section of this forum and elsewhere of people going into bad fishtailing and sometimes coming off the bike on account of incorrect use of the rear brake during heavy braking. I don't think the risk of trying to use the rear brake effectively is worth the reward: the rear brake counts for so little. Human error can easily creep in during a split second decision making process too, so unless you've got your rear brake muscle memory perfectly sorted, I think you can easily mess it up.

I do use my rear brake a lot btw. I'm rather fond of it!... just not for heavy braking.

[emoyer]

Originally Posted by alex.s

ease on until the nose is down then full brakes and taper off.

THIS HELPS! (yeah, I'm a noob.) I took MSF, I read Hough's book, and this is the first explanation that really clicked for me. Tried it tonight after work & not only did my stopping distance go way down, but I felt like I was in control. (I'm talking about hard braking, not necessarily high speed.) THANKS!

[alex.s]

its all about being smooth

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by alex.s

its all about being smooth

Yep, yep, yep.

Start with a smooth squeeze to transition weight onto the front wheel then a smooth pull till the front wheel starts to talk to you with smooth modulation the whole time. Then you smoothly let off the brakes to smoothly let the weight off the front wheel while accelerating smoothly.

Did I mention you need to be smooth?

I can only speak about hard braking from around 70mph but the basics are the same for faster or slower.

P.S. I use the rear brake all the time on the street for normal stopping but only a whiff of it during hard braking just to settle the bike then I let off of it.

Jeff

[NDspd]

I really only use the rear for when I'm too lazy to use the front in town. But really I don't use it unless I add a touch of it in heavy braking. One time I used too much of it and I Learned pretty damn quick.

[Malicious Logic]

Originally Posted by ajcadoo

As MSF teaches, always use both brakes so that in the emergency hazard situation: your body will automatically slow with both brakes. Also, avoid engine braking since cars behind dont know when youre slowing without that brake light!

Guess I'll be ran over soon after getting my bike then. I'd rather engine brake if I have the room and am able to.

[Kevin2109]

Ive had to come from 150+ to 65 pretty quick before. I use my front brake only, I refuse to touch the back, is that wrong? Sure it may be but im comfortable with my front brake. Just dont grab too hard when braking, it makes the front end very unstable and will wobble, I guess its hard for me to explain what exactly to do. Its more practice then anything, but like alex said, avoid locking the front at all costs

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by NDspd

I really only use the rear for when I'm too lazy to use the front in town. But really I don't use it unless I add a touch of it in heavy braking. One time I used too much of it and I Learned pretty damn quick.

I'd make a habit of using the front all the time. You use what you practice and going to the pedal in an emergency is not the best option. Just saying.

Jeff

[NDspd]

I'd say 98% of the time I use the front.

[Slono]

Originally Posted by NDspd

I'd say 98% of the time I use the front.

I'm the same. I might use it 96.3% of the time though.

[areifel]

I also (almost) learned the hard way of using too much rear brake when trying to stop in an emergency. Especially with 9,000 miles on the stock IRC tires. You just don't.... STOP!

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by Slono

I'm the same. I might use it 96.3% of the time though.

Haha...I was being sarcastic, maybe it was 98.5592%

[ally99]

Originally Posted by akima

@alex.s:

I do use my rear brake a lot btw. I'm rather fond of it!... just not for heavy braking.

Me too! I love my rear brake for nearly everything EXCEPT high speed panic stops. Just not worth the risk of locking it up for the infinitesimally small amount of help it brings at such high speeds.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by akima

I do use my rear brake a lot btw. I'm rather fond of it!... just not for heavy braking.

My high speed braking advice is this: clench your tank with your legs and do your best to keep your upper body from putting lateral pressure on the bars. Stay as loose as possible (which is tough when your body is being thrown forward!) by clenching the tank with your legs.

[akima]

Originally Posted by ally99

My high speed braking advice is this: clench your tank with your legs and do your best to keep your upper body from putting lateral pressure on the bars. Stay as loose as possible (which is tough when your body is being thrown forward!) by clenching the tank with your legs.

That feels like good advice to me. I've seen lots of videos of bikes going into wobbles from heavy braking or hitting obstacles/bumps in the road. The bike seems to move the front wheel as it needs to and then restore itself. I'm guessing being stiff on the bars inhibits the bike from doing that, so rather than the bars rotating, the front wheel stays stiff and then looses traction. Or at least that seems to be the case from what I've seen.

I guess a nice side effect of staying loose on the bars is that you get to keep your upper body and arms nice and relaxed! Relaxed humans are better than tense humans.

[nickjpass]

Maybe getting tank grips would help out?

[choneofakind]

Nick, that's what Allyson said 2 posts ago mate.

[nickjpass]

No, she didn't. Tank pads on the sides... like this...

Traction Pads

she just said to grip the tank.

[shiftyninja]

Akima and Alex.s are right about not using the rear brake in emergency situations. I have done exactly as MSF says, use both brakes in emergency situations. It ALWAYS results in locking the back and fishtailing. I did just that this past Friday when a bunch of traffic going 60mph stopped suddenly. I did as "trained" and immediately locked the back and fishtailed while having to menuever through gaps of cars clearing way for the Fire Truck. What a rush that was, if I hadn't **** 30 minutes before, I would have then. I literally peed a little.

There are numerous times I have locked the back and fishtailed, managing each time to not over compensate and high-side. This is due to using the back as suggested by MSF. I use it lightly as a backup and occasionally for down-hill speed sustaining. The only reason I can see using both would lessen the chance of being ejected over-bars, and greaten the chance of having to lay it down (which is safer).

[Alex]

You're using too much rear brake. The MSF isn't recommending that people lock the rear when stopping, but what you've learned is that it can be quite challenging to apply just the right amount of rear brake during an emergency stop. (Which is why some folks have come to the conclusion that it's not worth the concentration, and would rather focus on making sure they are using exactly as much front brake as possible to stop the quickest).

[ally99]

Not to mention that in a high-speed braking situation, the rear brake only helps at ALL for a fraction of a second before the front stopping power takes over. The rear tire is off the ground anyway. It's just not worth the risk for the infinitesimally small amount of stopping power it provides and the possibility of not getting the pressure JUST right. I love my rear brake, use it all the time, but not in fast braking situations.

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by ally99

Not to mention that in a high-speed braking situation, the rear brake only helps at ALL for a fraction of a second before the front stopping power takes over. The rear tire is off the ground anyway. It's just not worth the risk for the infinitesimally small amount of stopping power it provides and the possibility of not getting the pressure JUST right. I love my rear brake, use it all the time, but not in fast braking situations.

You make a good point there. But, I've experimented with braking hard and the rear does make a little bit of a difference, not a whole lot. It only take inches to make the difference between making it home and lying in a hospital bed. I've caught myself locking the rear and I've learned where the sweet spot is so I don't do it anymore.

[akima]

@NDspd: She and I (as per my original post) are talking about "high speed", heavy braking though. I think Ally was just trying state that for whatever small benefit you get while heavy braking normally, at high speed the effect of using the rear brake is even smaller and the chance of getting it wrong is even higher.

I don't at all mind the general "heavy braking" discussion in here, but my concerns are really about heavy braking when you're going really, really... really, fast! (In my books that's 90MPH )

Have any of you guys actually had to brake hard at ~90MPH before? Did you notice anything different about braking at those kinda speeds... other than the wet patch forming in your pants

TBH, I'm actually a bit scared of braking when going that fast. It feels like a tiny bump in the road might cause me to crash if I'm applying heavy braking at that speed. IDK: it just feels like as soon as I get above ~65MPH, riding physics seem to change.

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by akima

@NDspd: She and I (as per my original post) are talking about "high speed", heavy braking though. I think Ally was just trying state that for whatever small benefit you get while heavy braking normally, at high speed the effect of using the rear brake is even smaller and the chance of getting it wrong is even higher.

I don't at all mind the general "heavy braking" discussion in here, but my concerns are really about heavy braking when you're going really, really... really, fast! (In my books that's 90MPH )

Have any of you guys actually had to brake hard at ~90MPH before? Did you notice anything different about braking at those kinda speeds... other than the wet patch forming in your pants

TBH, I'm actually a bit scared of braking when going that fast. It feels like a tiny bump in the road might cause me to crash if I'm applying heavy braking at that speed. IDK: it just feels like as soon as I get above ~65MPH, riding physics seem to change.

Oh ok, good point. Yeah, very high speed braking will make most men wet their pants.